The Big Fat Compendium Of Russiagate Debunkery

[Richard]

What!!! What does Mueller say about this???

He says,Thank you for playing.

His job is done,provide a ruse in order to keep the peace in the streets for the greater good.

[GMan]

He says,Thank you for playing.

His job is done,provide a ruse in order to keep the peace in the streets for the greater good.

Yes his ruse, er job is done. The investigation will die with a wimper as the Dem majority house now tries to pick up the witch hunt.

If the investigation had a shred legitimacy, it would have gone after the DNC funded groups that used a foreign operative to dig up dirt [[manufacture dirt) on D.T. and use that as a basis to open a Fisa warrant on the campaign. The doj, fbi and other alphabets were desperate to maintain their hold over the narrative and power base within the government as horrors, an outsider managed to get elected.

[Bham1982]

Yes his ruse, er job is done. The investigation will die with a wimper as the Dem majority house now tries to pick up the witch hunt.

If it's a "witch hunt", there sure must be a lot of witches. Mueller has secured far more indictments than any investigation of any President in American history, and all in 18 months.

You also "forgot" to mention that this "witch hunt" was authorized by Trump's own AG. So Trump himself is the Deep State?

And it's funny that everyone here also "forgot" to mention that Manafort yesterday was found to have lied to prosecutors re. Trump's communications with Russia. So we now know that Trump's Campaign Manager repeatedly lied under oath re. Trump's specific interactions with the Kremlin. Just an innocent oversight, no doubt...

[Richard]

Maybe because no other president in history has gone through the amount of investigations in the name of retribution.

You are thinking that those connected to politics may be a bit shady is a new concept?

Common sense dictates that the Trump administration would institut it in order to get ahead of the curve and take control of the situation before it got out of hand anymore then it already was.

All of your so called wins would bring charges against half of the country if millions were scrutinized as such.

[JBMcB]

Mueller has secured far more indictments than any investigation of any President in American history, and all in 18 months.

George Papadopoulos - 14 days in jail for lying to the FBI

Paul Manafort - Plead guilty to conspiracy against the US
because of dealings with Ukrainian groups, and later indicted on a tangentially related tax scheme

Rick Gates - Guilty of Tax Evasion

Michael Flynn - Plead guilty of lying to the FBI about contacting Russian officials, served no jail time

Richard Pinendo - Guilty of selling stolen bank accounts to Russians, six months jail, no connection to the Trump campaign

Alex van der Zwaan - Guilty of lying to the FBI about talking to Rick Gates, 30 days in jail then deported

Michael Cohen - Indicted for lying to congress and tax evasion

Samuel Patten - Plead guilty for not filing as a foreign lobbyist for buying inauguration tickets for a Russian

Roger Stone - Indicted for lying to congress about talking to Wikileaks


So that *is* a lot of indictments. Nearly all of them relating to collusion with Russia involve lying to congress or the FBI about talking to Russians in some form or another. What I'm not seeing are indictments for treason, or interfering with an election.

What would be neat is this sort of scrutiny given to every electoral campaign.

[Honky Tonk]

George Papadopoulos - 14 days in jail for lying to the FBI

Paul Manafort - Plead guilty to conspiracy against the US
because of dealings with Ukrainian groups, and later indicted on a tangentially related tax scheme

Rick Gates - Guilty of Tax Evasion

Michael Flynn - Plead guilty of lying to the FBI about contacting Russian officials, served no jail time

Richard Pinendo - Guilty of selling stolen bank accounts to Russians, six months jail, no connection to the Trump campaign

Alex van der Zwaan - Guilty of lying to the FBI about talking to Rick Gates, 30 days in jail then deported

Michael Cohen - Indicted for lying to congress and tax evasion

Samuel Patten - Plead guilty for not filing as a foreign lobbyist for buying inauguration tickets for a Russian

Roger Stone - Indicted for lying to congress about talking to Wikileaks


So that *is* a lot of indictments. Nearly all of them relating to collusion with Russia involve lying to congress or the FBI about talking to Russians in some form or another. What I'm not seeing are indictments for treason, or interfering with an election.

What would be neat is this sort of scrutiny given to every electoral campaign.

And yet Hillary, who had State classified information going back and forth on her personal server, protected by a highly complex password "password", roams free. Go figure.

[Zacha341]

^^^ She has good 'damage control' in place.

[Bham1982]

And yet Hillary, who had State classified information going back and forth on her personal server, protected by a highly complex password "password", roams free. Go figure.

Why wouldn't she "roam free"? She broke no laws. She did the exact same thing that every SOS has done in the internet era. She did the same thing Trump does.

You want to imprison basically every single elected official who has ever accessed a secure email on an unsecured server? There would be no politicans left.

And Whataboutism is the last refuge of those with zero argument. Hillary is as relevant to this thread as Alexander the Great. Trump doesn't get to conspire with Russia because other politicians didn't follow email protocol.

[JBMcB]

Trump doesn't get to conspire with Russia because other politicians didn't follow email protocol.

Excellent point. So what's with the dearth of indictments for treason or election tampering? It's mostly lying to the FBI or congress about talking to Russians, or tax evasion. Failing to register as a foreign lobbyist is the closest thing any indictment has come to actual "collusion"

[Bham1982]

Excellent point. So what's with the dearth of indictments for treason or election tampering?

I don't understand the question. Mueller has barely begun the investigation, and is obviously working up the chain, like all prosecutors. He isn't granting immunity for the hell of it.

Also, why you do need a treason conviction? There have barely been any treason convictions in U.S. history. You think no one ever deserves prison time absent treason?

There is no such crime as "election tampering", BTW. No one will be charged with it because it doesn't exist.

[JBMcB]

I don't understand the question. Mueller has barely begun the investigation, and is obviously working up the chain, like all prosecutors. He isn't granting immunity for the hell of it.

The investigation has been going on for a year and a half. The senate inquiry into Watergate didn't last that long.

There is no such crime as "election tampering", BTW. No one will be charged with it because it doesn't exist.

If the contention is that Trump colluded with someone in Russia to aid in his campaign, then that would absolutely be a violation of the FECA. Foreign individuals are specifically barred from contributing anything of value to an election in the US. Weird that there are indictments for lying to the FBI and not for elections violations. Besides, when you indict someone to compel them to testify, you indict them on anything you could possibly charge them with, in case some of the charges get tossed. Lying to the FBI is pretty low hanging fruit.

https://www.fec.gov/updates/foreign-nationals/

[Honky Tonk]

Trump doesn't get to conspire with Russia because other politicians didn't follow email protocol.

Aha, you've got something! Let's see it, what do you have?

[Bham1982]

The investigation has been going on for a year and a half. The senate inquiry into Watergate didn't last that long.

Why are you comparing a Senate inquiry with a Special Counsel? Are you ignorant or intentionally trying to deceive?

There is no Senate inquiry on Russia, so it has taken exactly 0 seconds.

The Special counsel has been active 17 months, or about 1/4 the time of the Watergate special counsel. In that timeframe, Mueller has roughly twice the convictions of Watergate.

If the contention is that Trump colluded with someone in Russia to aid in his campaign,

Yes, that is obviously the point of the investigation, and nothing [[so far) has indicated that this contention is inaccurate. Trump would have to be the dumbest person on the planet to have only hired Russian assets while being totally unaware that his entire campaign team served Russia.

Weird that there are indictments for lying to the FBI and not for elections violations.

Why is that "weird"? Explain. You believe these unprecedented felonies are "nothingburgers", I take it? I'm not aware of any allegations of "elections violations", as if anyone thinks Trump's associates were personally stuffing ballot boxes in MI or something.

Besides, when you indict someone to compel them to testify, you indict them on anything you could possibly charge them with, in case some of the charges get tossed.

Mueller has indicted under more felonies than any special investigation in the history of the U.S. So what the hell are you talking about? He's already produced a mountain of felonies.

The reality is you don't care. He could produce a video with Trump exchanging money with Putin and you would respond "Butwhatabout!". There is absolutely nothing that would change your cult allegiance.

[Bham1982]

Aha, you've got something! Let's see it, what do you have?

Can you translate from cultspeak to English? What does this mean?

Are you asking what Mueller has? You mean more indictments than any special investigation in the history of the U.S.?

[JBMcB]

Why is that "weird"? Explain. You believe these unprecedented felonies are "nothingburgers", I take it? I'm not aware of any allegations of "elections violations", as if anyone thinks Trump's associates were personally stuffing ballot boxes in MI or something.

The majority of the felonies, as I listed them, are for lying to congress or the FBI, usually about talking to Russia. Again, if the contention was Russia was helping the Trump campaign, solicitation of which is against federal election statues [[11 CFR 110.20) as evidenced by the link I posted, then why are there no indictments for that? These are ostensibly the Trump confidants whom were communicating with Russia, and none were indicted for soliciting any sort of aid.

Mueller has indicted under more felonies than any special investigation in the history of the U.S. So what the hell are you talking about? He's already produced a mountain of felonies.

Again, most were for lying to the FBI, most with no associated charge. Meaning they were guilty of lying to the FBI, but of no other felony.

The reality is you don't care. He could produce a video with Trump exchanging money with Putin and you would respond "Butwhatabout!". There is absolutely nothing that would change your cult allegiance.

OK, what's the absolute best piece of hard evidence that Trump made a formal request for Russia in help with his campaign? Not hearsay. Not allegations. Evidence.

I don't know if he's guilty or not. I haven't seen anything that would sway me one way or another. Something tells me that, if the Mueller investigation wraps up and finds no evidence of collusion, you'll be alleging that Mueller was compromised in some way,.

[Richard]

Then they will be calling for another investigation,saying Muller is also in collusion with the Russians.

I actually thought I saw a Russian in the bushes the other day but it turned out to be a Chinese guy that had dug a hole in the opposite direction,he tried selling me a fake Range Rover,I had to tell him that not all Americans are that gullible and to stop watching the liberal media.

[Bham1982]

The majority of the felonies, as I listed them, are for lying to congress or the FBI, usually about talking to Russia.

Again, what's your point? Why are you apparently "fine" with more felonies than any investigation in U.S. history, and why do you dimiss said mountain of felonies by asking "but why aren't they being charged with other felonies"?

Again, if the contention was Russia was helping the Trump campaign,

Stop right there. That is not anyone's "contention", that's the settled conclusion by all major U.S. intelligence agencies.

If you question settled fact, you question basic reality, and one can only assume you're a Russian troll or incredibly ignorant.

Again, most were for lying to the FBI, most with no associated charge. Meaning they were guilty of lying to the FBI, but of no other felony.

And again, you have no point. Trump isn't allowed to mass-commit felonies, if the felonies meet your approval. You apparently think lying to the FBI is hunky-dory, federal law disagrees.

Nixon was never criminally charged with anything, and was "only" impeached for obstructing justice, that doesn't mean his name isn't garbage forever.

OK, what's the absolute best piece of hard evidence that Trump made a formal request for Russia in help with his campaign?

No one is arguing this, but thanks for the non-sequiturs, Sergei. Trump can be a criminal without "formally requesting" criminal activity.

[Bham1982]

Then they will be calling for another investigation,saying Muller is also in collusion with the Russians.

"They" already have. Trump has repeatedly claimed that Mueller should be investigated for investigating him. And Trump has also claimed that those investigating him are actually secretly in cahoots with Russia. He's always projecting.

[Richard]

"They" already have. Trump has repeatedly claimed that Mueller should be investigated for investigating him. And Trump has also claimed that those investigating him are actually secretly in cahoots with Russia. He's always projecting.

Speaking of projecting,are you going to bring AJ back for some comments ?

[Bham1982]

Speaking of projecting,are you going to bring AJ back for some comments ?

What is AJ? Dotard now wears Air Jordans?

[canuck]

What is AJ? Dotard now wears Air Jordans?

Air Jordans with fluorescent orange laces to match the top of his frame.

[Richard]

Air Jordans with fluorescent orange laces to match the top of his frame.

Apparently it could be worse,he could have showed up in a blue dress.

[JBMcB]

Again, what's your point? Why are you apparently "fine" with more felonies than any investigation in U.S. history, and why do you dimiss said mountain of felonies by asking "but why aren't they being charged with other felonies"?

Think of it this way: if the FBI hadn't investigated the people whom only charged with lying to the FBI, would they be criminals? What specific crime were they suspected of? What would they be charged with? Are they guilty of lying about something that isn't even a crime? It's one thing being indicted for lying to the FBI and tax evasion. It's clear you were lying about tax evasion. It's another when you are *only* charged with lying to the FBI. Even if you lie to cover up someone else's crime, that would be an additional conspiracy charge, which nobody was charged with, either.

And again, you have no point. Trump isn't allowed to mass-commit felonies, if the felonies meet your approval. You apparently think lying to the FBI is hunky-dory, federal law disagrees.

Lying to the FBI is a crime to prevent people from covering up crimes. Otherwise what's the point? That's my issue with the indictments so far.

Nixon was never criminally charged with anything, and was "only" impeached for obstructing justice, that doesn't mean his name isn't garbage forever.

Nixon was never impeached. He was investigated for trying to cover up an actual crime - paying someone to commit breaking and entering.

We'll go around again. What *specific crime* do you think Trump is guilty of? Covering up something that isn't a crime? That's what got Clinton impeached, but not removed from office. I don't think that's the outcome you're looking for.

[Bham1982]

Think of it this way: if the FBI hadn't investigated the people whom only charged with lying to the FBI, would they be criminals?

Yes, they're criminals. No, you don't get to dismiss felonies because you only care about other felonies.

What specific crime were they suspected of? What would they be charged with?

These are the criminal charges levied against Trump's closest campaign associates, to this point:

-Conspiracy
-Lying to FBI
-Lying to House Intelligence Committee
-Lying to Special Counsel
-Obstruction of Justice
-Identity Theft
-Various financial crimes
-Not registering as a foreign agent

Not sure why you dismiss these charges or repeatedly ask "but why haven't other charges been filed", as if only some crimes matter. Also not sure what you think would motivate everyone to lie, and what would motivate Mueller to offer plea deals, if not seeking to cover up illegal activity.

Lying to the FBI is a crime to prevent people from covering up crimes.

Exactly. This is the whole point. The most likely reason that Trump's closest associates are all lying re. Trump's interactions with the Kremlin is because Trump is a criminal and they're covering for him [[hence the investigation).

What other reason would there be? Why would his entire campaign staff leadership go to prison? Just for the heck of it? They thought lying would be fun?

Nixon was never impeached. He was investigated for trying to cover up an actual crime - paying someone to commit breaking and entering.

Nixon was never charged with any crimes, yet he's garbage for eternity. This is why your question "but what crime" makes no sense. Trump does not need to be successfully prosecuted to be removed. There only needs to be reasonable suspicion he engaged in illegal activity. We're way past that point.

We'll go around again. What *specific crime* do you think Trump is guilty of?

I don't understand your question. Only Mueller and the NYAG could answer this question with certainty.

A reasonable person can assume that Trump, as a lifelong lawbreaker and habitual liar, is likely guilty of a litany of crimes. The fact that all his associates are lying re. his Kremlin interactions, and even willing to go to prison on his behalf, and the fact that Trump has acted like a compromised Russian asset from Day 1, almost certainly points to illegal activity. The fact that the Steele Dossier, to this point, has been 100% confirmed, points to illegal activity. The fact that the FBI [[dominated by Conservative Republicans, including Mueller, Comey and Rosenstein) are on record discussing his lawbreaking, would lead most reasonable people to believe he's a criminal.

Granted, is it possible he isn't a criminal re. Russia? Yes. He could just be an idiot and willing stooge. One could theoretically be compromised by the Kremlin without breaking any laws. But if this were the case, it would also be cause for removal. It would mean the President is essentially incapacitated. And it wouldn't explain why everyone is lying and accepting prison terms.

The coming months will obviously clarify the activity, as both prosecutions steadily move up the leadership chain.

[313WX]

Bham1982 and aj3647,

What's good yo!?

Mueller submits report on Trump investigation to AG Barr, no new charges

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna974006