Ontario Moves to $15 per hour minimum wage

[bust]

Investments in more buildings, more administrative positions don't improve higher education. What makes it an 'investment'? Its an expense. Expenses are managed and controlled. Calling it an investment in our future should be left to pandering politicians. I'd rather we spend $85 wisely, than $100 poorly. Measure education by results, not spending -- unless you want spending more than education.

I agree with all of that.
But prove to us your $85 is spent more wisely, FIRST.
The people proposing cutting spending never seem to get to that.
They talk in grand platitudes that upon closer inspection fall apart.

[bust]

PS. Getting us back to the original topic, a little perspective:

A $15 minimum wage today is the same as $2.32/hour in 1970:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201704

And since we're talking Canadian dollars, today $1 Canadian == $0.74 US:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=11...anadian+dollar

$15 Canadian == $11.15 US.

An $11.15 minimum wage today is less than $1.73/hour in 1970:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201704

If you're old enough, do you remember what you were paid in 1970?

As we consider these things it's easy to discount the power of inflation and hard to shake free from what we remember earning when we were young.

Things have changed.

[Wesley Mouch]

I agree with all of that.
But prove to us your $85 is spent more wisely, FIRST.
The people proposing cutting spending never seem to get to that.
They talk in grand platitudes that upon closer inspection fall apart.

Wisely is in the eye of the beholder.

I can't prove that the universities spent wisely when their budget are cut, but its pretty easy to prove that they don't when they are 'over-funded'.

from the NYTimes:

By contrast, a major factor driving increasing costs is the constant expansion of university administration. According to the Department of Education data, administrative positions at colleges and universities grew by 60 percent between 1993 and 2009, which Bloomberg reported was 10 times the rate of growth of tenured faculty positions.
Even more strikingly, an analysis by a professor at California Polytechnic University, Pomona, found that, while the total number of full-time faculty members in the C.S.U. system grew from 11,614 to 12,019 between 1975 and 2008, the total number of administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183 — a 221 percent increase.

With a little ingenuity, I think we could half the number of administrators -- and increase spending on education.

Money in does not mean quality out.

This has nothing to do with MW -- since there's probably not a soul in Ann Arbor working for MW. Apologies to the thread.

[bust]

Wisely is in the eye of the beholder.

I can't prove that the universities spent wisely when their budget are cut, but its pretty easy to prove that they don't when they are 'over-funded'.

from the NYTimes:

With a little ingenuity, I think we could half the number of administrators -- and increase spending on education.

Money in does not mean quality out.

This has nothing to do with MW -- since there's probably not a soul in Ann Arbor working for MW. Apologies to the thread.

When it comes to universities I imagine we can find some common ground.
Some of the money can be better spent.
But don't underestimate the importance of great public universities.
One or two of Michigan's are [[still) among the best. Let's keep it that way.
When it comes to primary and secondary schools it doesn't seem we can agree.
You've been a relentless advocate of vouchers for charter schools.
People in Detroit should know better than anywhere: That hasn't worked.
There are charter schools like there are parking lots. Look at the results.
Maybe some other way, but definitely not the way it has been done.

A Sea of Charter Schools in Detroit Leaves Students Adrift
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/u...r-schools.html

DeVos' Michigan schools experiment gets poor grades
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/betsy-devos-michigan-school-experiment-232399

My own apology to the thread: I tried to get us back on track, but I'm sorry: was pulled back here again.

[Wesley Mouch]

When it comes to universities I imagine we can find some common ground.
Some of the money can be better spent.
But don't underestimate the importance of great public universities.
One or two of Michigan's are [[still) among the best. Let's keep it that way.

So true. Nobody should underestimate the positive effect that the UofM has on Detroit and all of our fine state.

When it comes to primary and secondary schools it doesn't seem we can agree.
You've been a relentless advocate of vouchers for charter schools.
People in Detroit should know better than anywhere: That hasn't worked.
There are charter schools like there are parking lots. Look at the results.
Maybe some other way, but definitely not the way it has been done.

I hope we agree that we need to do a better job -- and we're just debating how to best do that.
...

My own apology to the thread: I tried to get us back on track, but I'm sorry: was pulled back here again.

So let's talk MW for a moment. I felt the love from your comments, and my evil self softened for a brief moment.

On schools and MW, I hope we all want the best for all our citizens. We disagree -- but I hope we listen to each other and are open to re-thinking.

[night-timer]

I would close my business before attempting to comply with such silly rules. I hope Detroit never ever does this. Eliminating the bottom rung is no way to move people up the ladder.

I agree with this to the extent that 'you don't start at the top' - everyone has to pay their dues and get noticed. My only concern with an employer backlash against increasing the minimum wage is, how low do you go? Ten is too high, so let's start at five. How long before employers are saying five is too high - let's go lower to help the poor.

[casscorridor]

Living wages, universal healthcare and access to higher education without mountains of debt should be seen as cornerstones to building a healthy democratic society. This should't even be debated, only the particulars of how to achieve this should be.

[Bham1982]

Living wages, universal healthcare and access to higher education without mountains of debt should be seen as cornerstones to building a healthy democratic society. This should't even be debated, only the particulars of how to achieve this should be.

Yeah, it's not clear why these are "controversial" topics usually associated with "leftists", when in every other country in the developed world, such issues were long-since settled.

Western Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. all have a total consensus around such basic foundations of a civilized society. Even far-right parties would never challenge this consensus.

But in the U.S., the wealthiest country in human history, if you say you support some minimal public healthcare or a livable wage or some state support for public education, people think you're some crazy leftist and claim it's completely unaffordable [[but apparently Bulgaria and the like can afford such things).

God forbid people don't graduate from college 200k in debt, with no healthcare and no wage protections. Wouldn't want the .1% to pay slightly higher taxes for the good of society; that would be just completely crazy.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yeah, it's not clear why these are "controversial" topics usually associated with "leftists", when in every other country in the developed world, such issues were long-since settled.

Western Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. all have a total consensus around such basic foundations of a civilized society. Even far-right parties would never challenge this consensus.

But in the U.S., the wealthiest country in human history, if you say you support some minimal public healthcare or a livable wage or some state support for public education, people think you're some crazy leftist and claim it's completely unaffordable [[but apparently Bulgaria and the like can afford such things).

God forbid people don't graduate from college 200k in debt, with no healthcare and no wage protections. Wouldn't want the .1% to pay slightly higher taxes for the good of society; that would be just completely crazy.

I just love the argument that something is 'settled'. Its not. Canada charges for healthcare [[in some provinces), and doesn't generally cover prescriptions [[out of hospital).

Nobody debates some state support for education. Other countries leave students with debt. A quick google finds The Atlantic saying that Sweden's average student debt is $19,000 USD.

Living wages are subjective, but there are no minimum wage laws in all of Europe [[no MW in Italy, Austria, Norway).

I'm a social-libertarian who is fine with state support for education, believes in a social safety net, and universal basic health care. We are out there. But we do have some issues with how the left is getting there. Is it OK to disagree a little -- or does that immediately mean we are fighting against 'settled science', or 'settled social policy'?

[Canadian Visitor]

I just love the argument that something is 'settled'. Its not. Canada charges for healthcare [[in some provinces), and doesn't generally cover prescriptions [[out of hospital).

...

Living wages are subjective, but there are no minimum wage laws in all of Europe [[no MW in Italy, Austria, Norway).

Just for clarity here.

There are NO Canadian provinces that charge for hospital or physician care for medically necessary services [[as opposed to a nose job)

There are small variations in what might be covered, and the method of payment varies slightly, that is to say, in some provinces payment is fully embedded in general taxation, while in others, there is a line-item deduction off your pay cheque.

However, whatever means revenue is raised by, everyone is covered.

Drug coverage, outside of hospital does vary widely.

Though generally, it follows that anyone on social assistance is covered, typically seniors are covered and then every province has a catastrophic coverage plan which caps drug costs at typically no greater than 3% of annual income.

There are also various other 'boutique' coverages such as cancer drugs for outpatients which are covered in some form, in most provinces.

****

The facts in place, Bham's point was that every developed nation except the United States ensures there is no charge at point of care, and that everyone is covered by some kind of plan be it private, public or a hybrid.

****

On min. wages, while you are technically correct, you are functionally wrong.

Unionization is typically mandatory in the countries you noted for virtually everyone, in every sector of employment.

Those unions negotiate 'sectoral' minimum wages as part of their collective agreements.

While the wage is not codified by the state, it exists all the same.

[Wesley Mouch]

Just for clarity here.

There are NO Canadian provinces that charge for hospital or physician care for medically necessary services [[as opposed to a nose job)

From BC Government Website: MSP [[Medical Services Plan) Monthly Rates [[Premiums)

In B.C., residents pay monthly MSP rates [[premiums), which help meet a portion of the costs of B.C.’s health-care system. Each month, you will be sent an invoice for the premiums you owe for the next month.

...Granted, the maximum premium is $150/mo for a family = $1,800/yr. There is a subsidy for no/low wage earners. It is not, however, free at least in BC.

...
The facts in place, Bham's point was that every developed nation except the United States ensures there is no charge at point of care, and that everyone is covered by some kind of plan be it private, public or a hybrid.

I actually support basic universal coverage. And no charge at point-of-care is a fine idea. It doesn't mean its the only way to make it work. In the US, we require treatment for everyone -- even if they can't pay. It has terrible consequences, but we don't have to solve that problem just like Europe. But frankly we're not in much disagreement here.

On min. wages, while you are technically correct, you are functionally wrong.

Unionization is typically mandatory in the countries you noted for virtually everyone, in every sector of employment.

Those unions negotiate 'sectoral' minimum wages as part of their collective agreements.

While the wage is not codified by the state, it exists all the same.

I'd like to hear more about this. My quick research suggests that unionization in Germany is about 25%. That's far from 'virtually everyone'. I don't know much about their quasi-union collectives. But I somehow doubt that the extend to the corner grocery store clerk, as our MW laws do.

Again, I don't think the world has all the answers. I'm happy with the US taking a different path.

Do share more about how Europe's 'guilds' cover everyone.

[Bham1982]

I just love the argument that something is 'settled'. Its not. Canada charges for healthcare [[in some provinces), and doesn't generally cover prescriptions [[out of hospital).

Nobody debates some state support for education. Other countries leave students with debt. A quick google finds The Atlantic saying that Sweden's average student debt is $19,000 USD.

Living wages are subjective, but there are no minimum wage laws in all of Europe [[no MW in Italy, Austria, Norway).

I'm a social-libertarian who is fine with state support for education, believes in a social safety net, and universal basic health care. We are out there. But we do have some issues with how the left is getting there. Is it OK to disagree a little -- or does that immediately mean we are fighting against 'settled science', or 'settled social policy'?

Basically nothing you wrote was correct.

Almost all European countries have generous minimum wage laws [[whether established by the feds, individual states or through worker agreements), there's a total first world consensus that there should be a right to public healthcare [[the fact that some countries have fees does not invalidate this consensus), and the vast majority of first world countries have free, or almost free universities.

Of course there are nuanced differences. One country may provide slightly better medical coverage, another country might charge [[very low) college tuition. But the general consensus is in place everywhere but the U.S. We are the radicals, not the rest of the world.

[Bham1982]

...Granted, the maximum premium is $150/mo for a family = $1,800/yr. There is a subsidy for no/low wage earners. It is not, however, free at least in BC.

Medical care isn't "free", anywhere. Obviously people pay through taxes and fees. The point isn't to make care "free", it's to provide universal access, to separate employment from coverage and to deemphasize point-of-care.

[O3H]

At 9 bucks an hour - or $18,000 a year - how can families survive ?
Yeah families, those kids, making kids, growing babies in the USA.
The support system needs a RE-Think to END this idiocy among us.
Babies are expensive, need child care, along with rent, utilities, food.

Trump won't fix a damn thing when it comes to Big City issues like this

[Canadian Visitor]

From BC Government Website: MSP [[Medical Services Plan) Monthly Rates [[Premiums)

In B.C., residents pay monthly MSP rates [[premiums), which help meet a portion of the costs of B.C.’s health-care system. Each month, you will be sent an invoice for the premiums you owe for the next month.

...Granted, the maximum premium is $150/mo for a family = $1,800/yr. There is a subsidy for no/low wage earners. It is not, however, free at least in BC.

I actually support basic universal coverage. And no charge at point-of-care is a fine idea. It doesn't mean its the only way to make it work. In the US, we require treatment for everyone -- even if they can't pay. It has terrible consequences, but we don't have to solve that problem just like Europe. But frankly we're not in much disagreement here.


I'd like to hear more about this. My quick research suggests that unionization in Germany is about 25%. That's far from 'virtually everyone'. I don't know much about their quasi-union collectives. But I somehow doubt that the extend to the corner grocery store clerk, as our MW laws do.

Again, I don't think the world has all the answers. I'm happy with the US taking a different path.

Do share more about how Europe's 'guilds' cover everyone.

This article explains it fairly well

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...imum-wages.asp

**

In respect of Germany, they do have a minimum wage now, though only since 2015.

But they have for a long time had sectoral minimum wages which are nationally bargained.

This does include the grocery sector as in one key reason Walmart retreated from Germany.

**

BC's MSP premium is functionally a tax, and no one is denied service if they fail to pay.

That said the likely next gov't of BC just won on a platform of getting rid of the MSP as a separated out item.

[Canadian Visitor]

I would note how little the other issues in the labour changes are being touched on [[paid sick days, more vacation after 5 years, equality btw F/T and P/T workers) etc.

I would also like to touch, for those referencing Europe that the entire EU requires 4 weeks paid vacation w/most countries requiring more, in addition to paid state holidays.

[O3H]

I almost hate getting social media posts from my German relatives on vacation, here, there, everywhere, - and enjoying their lives a LOT.

Need to have the money to go on vacation, eh ? The USA is backwards.

[Richard]

I almost hate getting social media posts from my German relatives on vacation, here, there, everywhere, - and enjoying their lives a LOT.

Need to have the money to go on vacation, eh ? The USA is backwards.

Well to my distain both my daughter and her husband work at Wal-Mart without receiving gov benefits and post Vacation pictures from here and there.

But comparing American vacation visits verses European is kinda pointless,one can live in the U.K. and do a Paris weekend for a $50 flight but Paris is expensive to eat and stay.

If an American wants to do a budget European tour they can fly to London then go pretty much anywhere in Europe driving short trips or flights less then a $100.

When you look at most of the countries are the size of one state in the US it becomes easy and cheap.

[Wesley Mouch]

I would note how little the other issues in the labour changes are being touched on [[paid sick days, more vacation after 5 years, equality btw F/T and P/T workers) etc.

I would also like to touch, for those referencing Europe that the entire EU requires 4 weeks paid vacation w/most countries requiring more, in addition to paid state holidays.

All those benefits are really important, and should also be universal in our USofA. The question isn't whether they are 'good'. The question is whether they are best obtained by government dictate, or by the market.

When the government dictates, you get the wondrous taxis that Detroit has. The market delivers Uber. I prefer the market.

[Canadian Visitor]

All those benefits are really important, and should also be universal in our USofA. The question isn't whether they are 'good'. The question is whether they are best obtained by government dictate, or by the market.

When the government dictates, you get the wondrous taxis that Detroit has. The market delivers Uber. I prefer the market.

Under these changes all companies remain free to set their own benefits and wages, they simply can't set them below the legal minimum standard.

No different from mandating that an employee must be given a meal break on a long shift, or be allowed to use a washroom, or that they can't be made to work a 20-hour day.

Businesses retain extraordinary flexibility in what their final package of wages, benefits and hours look like, with the government only intervening to set a rock-bottom where we agree no one should be treated any worse than 'this'.

That is no great imposition on business.

It is sad that its necessary in so far as most businesses have established a lack of willingness to do better on their own. That being the reality, gov't intervention in setting the regulation is needed.

Again, one could go to the Scandinavian models, and impose unionization by sector and full sectoral bargaining.

Technically the government would stay out of it.

However, it still a collective imposition model.

[GMan]

I have nothing against minimum standards but I am curious why this is in the Discuss Detroit section???

[Canadian Visitor]

I have nothing against minimum standards but I am curious why this is in the Discuss Detroit section???

I chose this spot for a couple of reasons.

1) This affects Windsor directly, and is therefore local to Detroit.

2) A change of this type in a region which borders Michigan may allow for or precipitate change [[one of the standard arguments against raising standards being, 'but we have to compete w/those folks right across the state/national boundary')

[GMan]

I chose this spot for a couple of reasons.

1) This affects Windsor directly, and is therefore local to Detroit.

2) A change of this type in a region which borders Michigan may allow for or precipitate change [[one of the standard arguments against raising standards being, 'but we have to compete w/those folks right across the state/national boundary')

Well nothing against the topic, but I have seen some other regional topics moved.

As for competing across borders, only those with means [[cars / education ) can participate in that. I don't think Windsor is going to steal any minimum wage workers from the Det. metro region because of a raise of their minimum wage.

[313WX]

Well nothing against the topic, but I have seen some other regional topics moved.

As for competing across borders, only those with means [[cars / education ) can participate in that. I don't think Windsor is going to steal any minimum wage workers from the Det. metro region because of a raise of their minimum wage.

Besides, post-9/11 border security would make that highly unlikely.

[archfan]

I have nothing against minimum standards but I am curious why this is in the Discuss Detroit section???

Because, if you believe some news sites, raising the minimum wage will cause a complete breakdown in society, leading to savagery and barbarism. Then it's only a matter of time before the hoards cross the Ambassador Bridge...