Ontario Moves to $15 per hour minimum wage

[Wesley Mouch]

...The article did notice a slight uptick in business failure. But since unemployment didn't go the wrong way, one can reasonable infer any failed businesses were replaced by new or expanding ones.

One article's conclusion on one situation doesn't make anything true or false.

From what I have read, its clear that the theory is that an increase in MW should decrease employment. What really happens? There seems to be very, very little information. Economists seem to say that there's no proof that MW increases unemployment yet. They are salivating waiting for data -- and the latest round of significant increase may provide it. Seattle's experiment, and a few others, are a rare chance to see MW increase in an almost controlled experiment. [/quote]

Your position seems to be employment of everyone at all costs, irrespective of whether that employment is beneficial to the employee or society/the economy.

No. My position is that the market sets wages better than you would, and results in better results for the poor than your planned 'camp counselor' economy would.

There is no tenable argument that a family should be surving on the income of their 15,16 or 17 year old child. There is no argument [[that can be taken seriously) that that is desirable in any way, or that the pittance earned for their unskilled labour is a useful trade for their high school education.

Deprive urban kids of employment, because you think it helps others. Maybe they want to do both. You deprive them of the choice.

There is no demonstrable effect on lower-skill adult labour on net-net basis.

Only on the labour of 'minors' who should be focussed on their studies.

Not only is that better for them, but its better for society by replacing unskilled labour with skilled labour. Boosting productivity and thus consumer spending power over time.

Perfect summation. You would deprive kids of work opportunities to support the wages of skilled labor. That is of course why unions support MW. F--- the poor. Give our members more money.

Brutal, cold, calculating self-serving evil.

But this tit-a-tat is getting long in the tooth.

Summary: All economic theory says MW increases harm employment. Unions have brilliantly played on pity-liberal feelings by selectively using stats that show only 'modest harm' to working poor youth. New labor market entrants by ever theory taught will suffer needlessly.

[Richard]

Mc Donald's was the first chain restaurant to incorporate the assembly line aspect into each center for the sole purpose of useing unskilled labor to keep costs down.

Schools or they used to anyways provided the basic fundamentals to get you through life but upon graduation one quickly realizes that real life is totally different,the crappy first jobs were advailable as a function while in high school and gives a real life advantage to those that take advantage.

They were never meant to be careers,unless one wanted to get into the management aspect.

So what happens,jobs disappear,schools lack funding and remove the basic trades programs,and the starter jobs became a career.They were never meant to be a living wage job.

So then the political aspect decides that it easier and quicker and sounds better to raise the minimum wage and offset it with a benefits package.

It gets votes because it sounds good even though the politicians are actually saying to the workers is we do not care if you are successful in life or have the ability to do more,keep voting and I will make sure that you stay right at that line between sleeping in the streets and a roof over your head.

The public is also scared because if they piss off the politicians then they may not eat the next day.

Keep em barefoot and pregnant and they do not stray.

Everybody takes the easy way out.

[Canadian Visitor]

Perfect summation. You would deprive kids of work opportunities to support the wages of skilled labor. That is of course why unions support MW. F--- the poor. Give our members more money.

Brutal, cold, calculating self-serving evil.

Using the word evil is at best a cop out and worse speaks very ill of you as a person.

Your preceding statement is utter nonsense and completely misrepresents what I said. Either you know that, and willfully misrepresented my position or your being obtuse.

My position was that that 16 year old Can Become Skilled labour; and that they never will if you having them working dead-end jobs instead of studying.

Yes I am quite comfortable denying someone the 'right' to be poor and under-class by helping them become more skilled and better paid.

[Richard]

Yes I am quite comfortable denying someone the 'right' to be poor and under-class by helping them become more skilled and better paid.


How exactly does one do that by keeping them trapped in an unskilled position?

All it becomes is a higher paid unskilled position.Instead of offering skills training it is giving reason not to have the incentive.

[Bham1982]

Perfect summation. You would deprive kids of work opportunities to support the wages of skilled labor.

I certainly would do so.

First, kids don't work these days. Workplace participation for under-18 has plummeted in the last 20 years.

Second, kids should be focusing on their studies. Every minute spent working at Taco Bell is a minute lost in preparing for their futures.

[Richard]

Yea so they can get good grades and go to collage and graduate with a ton of debt that they have to pay down by working at mc Donald's for $15 per hour,which still is not enough .so now if we raise it to $18 per hour they will be happy about not fixing the elephant in the room.

[Bham1982]

Yea so they can get good grades and go to collage and graduate with a ton of debt

Poor and working class students generally don't graduate with a "ton of debt" unless they choose to. Every reputable university has income-based tuition these days.

Top universities are actually free for working class students. If your kid goes to Harvard and you make an average income, there's no tuition charged [[but most kids are from high-earning families, who pay full freight).

And think public universities should be free. I certainly don't support our current arragement, where conservative state legislatures have gutted university funding and put the burden on students and their parents.

[Bigdd]

If your kid goes to Harvard and you make an average income, there's no tuition charged [[but most kids are from high-earning families, who pay full freight)..

He's right.

If you're a hard-core pot-head that invents "roof-hits" and is head of the "Choom Gang", and has an "F" GPA [[Having flunked out of Columbia University), and are homeless, broke and unemployed,... you can get right into Harvard Law School. You can even get appointed president of the Harvard Law Review with out having written a single legal article.

It's happened [[apparently).

[Bham1982]

He's right.

If you're a hard-core pot-head that invents "roof-hits" and is head of the "Choom Gang", and has an "F" GPA [[Having flunked out of Columbia University), and are homeless, broke and unemployed,... you can get right into Harvard Law School. You can even get appointed president of the Harvard Law Review with out having written a single legal article.

It's happened [[apparently).

Who is this trying to insult? I'm genuinely curious.

It's definitely sounds like made-up alt-right garbage; law schools all require bachelors degree, so you can't flunk out of a university and then attend law school. And law reviews are all application-based, based on submitted articles, so you can't even be in a law review without articles.

[O3H]

The USA set itself up to get raided, via corporate minimum wages

https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc.../#1e07f9c7720b

[Bigdd]

Who is this trying to insult? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't type in "Choom Gang" into Google?

[Wesley Mouch]

...And think public universities should be free. I certainly don't support our current arragement, where conservative state legislatures have gutted university funding and put the burden on students and their parents.

Snyder cut funding 15% in his first year. That's not gutting.

See table in article from Detroit News where from 2011 vs. 2016 can be seen. Some schools are above their state funding, others below. None are more than a few percent below 2011.

We'd all be better served if we could leave the hyperbole out of conversations, IMO. [[I'll try to do so as well.)

I call small reductions good management. University costs are something that needed management, as they've been out of control while schools have been building moments to themselves, and obligatory sports temples.

Calling is 'gutting' is political, not factual.

The increase for 2016 for the UofM is 1.9%.

[Bham1982]

Can't type in "Choom Gang" into Google?

Ah, I see; so you're posting absurd, easily disproven lies about Barack Obama that would be obviously false to even a small child. Should have figured. Infowars or Breitbart?

You forgot to mention he's Muslim, a secret ISIS agent, not an American citizen, and a Communist.

[Bigdd]

Ah, I see; so you're posting absurd, easily disproven lies about Barack Obama that would be obviously false to even a small child. Should have figured. Infowars or Breitbart?

No. I don;t read infowars or breitbart. But you quote Snopes,... so that says a lot.

You forgot to mention he's Muslim, a secret ISIS agent, not an American citizen, and a Communist.

You are free to continuing to do ZERO research,.. and believing whatever you like.

[Bham1982]

No. I don;t read infowars or breitbart. But you quote Snopes,... so that says a lot.

No, I don't quote Snopes. Never have. Snopes has nothing to do with anything. Where do you come up with your delusions if you aren't getting brainwashed from idiotic alt-right sources?

You are free to continuing to do ZERO research,.. and believing whatever you like.

You posted outright lies. You claimed Obama never graduated from university, was an F student, made law review without scholarship. These are all easily disproven and actually completely impossible, for anyone. You cannot attend law school without a bachelors, Obamas transcript is public, and Harvard requires 50% grades/50% writing to make law review. So everything you posted is, quite obviously, a lie.

In the real world, Obama was an excellent student, has two Ivy League degrees, and was the first African American in history appointed to lead the country's leading law review, and achieved this honor due to Harvard grades and scholarship. I'd say that's pretty damn impressive.

You might as well claim that Obama is a pink elephant alien from Planet Zorkonia. If you truly believe what you're writing, you have zero grasp on reality.

[313WX]

Restaurants in NYC and SF now have $15 minimum wage. Those are the premiere restaurant cities in North America. NYC is probably the dining capitol of the planet.

You really, honestly think that people are all going to New Jersey and Oakland to eat out? LOL. We're talking like an extra dollar or two on your bill.

And do you actually know any long-term restaurateurs? I do. They're wealthy. If you own a successful restaurant you can live anywhere in Metro Detroit. If you own a couple you're likely rich. Many pay dishwashers and the like off-the-books, well below minimum wage. I wouldn't be crying for the owners.

I was a huge Bernie Sanders supporter, and even I think he has it somewhat wrong with the $15/hr minimum wage. IMO, the minimum wage should be established based on the minimum amount it takes to afford basic necessities in each state [[with it being automatically adjusted yearly). That number is far less in a place like Mississippi or Alabama and that number could very well be far more in a place like NY or California.

As far as your comparison of Detroit with NYC/SF, bear in mind that the COL in NYC and SF is much higher than in Detroit. This is partially because of more taxes and regulations New Yorkers / Californians have to endure, but largely because people actually want to live there. Not to mention, because their economy is significantly healthier than Detroit's, the velocity of money is higher in NYC/SF [[thus, so is the inflation of goods / services in these regions).

To put things in perspective, an Engineer at GM making $80K in Detroit would have to make at least $150K to have close to the same type of lifestyle in NYC or SF.

So to my point, it's silly to assume businesses in Michigan can endure the same type of expense or that consumers in Michigan would be willing to shell out as much extra money to patronize these businesses as businesses and consumers in NYC/SF do.

[Wesley Mouch]

...IMO, the minimum wage should be established based on the minimum amount it takes to afford basic necessities in each state [[with it being automatically adjusted yearly). That number is far less in a place like Mississippi or Alabama and that number could very well be far more in a place like NY or California.
....

Might be better to establish it on a block-by-block basis. You can't tell me that costs in Indian Village are the same as those 3 blocks over. Or that Ishpeming is the same as Ann Arbor.

Even better, why not adjust to each persons actual expenses. Take their last 3 years of actual expenses and set the MW at that figure divided by 2080.

[313WX]

Might be better to establish it on a block-by-block basis. You can't tell me that costs in Indian Village are the same as those 3 blocks over. Or that Ishpeming is the same as Ann Arbor.

Even better, why not adjust to each persons actual expenses. Take their last 3 years of actual expenses and set the MW at that figure divided by 2080.

Not sure if you're being facetious.

If anything, I would think someone like you would agree that a $15/hr minimum wage across the board is not a good idea, as the fact is the COL higher or lower in certain parts of the country.

[emu steve]

Snyder cut funding 15% in his first year. That's not gutting.

See table in article from Detroit News where from 2011 vs. 2016 can be seen. Some schools are above their state funding, others below. None are more than a few percent below 2011.

We'd all be better served if we could leave the hyperbole out of conversations, IMO. [[I'll try to do so as well.)

I call small reductions good management. University costs are something that needed management, as they've been out of control while schools have been building moments to themselves, and obligatory sports temples.

Calling is 'gutting' is political, not factual.

The increase for 2016 for the UofM is 1.9%.

Cutting any spending [[revenues) 15% be it government, university, or household is draconian.

Universities basically have high fixed costs.

Does anyone think if Ford's revenues were cut 15% that it wouldn't be cheaper to buy a coffee at Starbuck's than a share of Ford stock?

If Ford's revenues were cut 15% they would have an operating loss of Biblical proportions.

BTW, if I remember Obama's recovery plan part of it was to assist state and local governments who were taking a financial beating and unable to deficit spend so they were caught between a rock and a hard place.

State and local governments, universities, etc. are almost like small businesses in that their 'profit' margin can be very small and recessions are very, very damaging to their bottom line.

[Wesley Mouch]

Cutting any spending [[revenues) 15% be it government, university, or household is draconian.

Universities basically have high fixed costs.

Does anyone think if Ford's revenues were cut 15% that it wouldn't be cheaper to buy a coffee at Starbuck's than a share of Ford stock?

If Ford's revenues were cut 15% they would have an operating loss of Biblical proportions.

BTW, if I remember Obama's recovery plan part of it was to assist state and local governments who were taking a financial beating and unable to deficit spend so they were caught between a rock and a hard place.

State and local governments, universities, etc. are almost like small businesses in that their 'profit' margin can be very small and recessions are very, very damaging to their bottom line.

Their only fixed cost is real estate. They should be able to scale back 15% without much pain. Businesses endure 15% cuts all the time. Not enjoyable. Survivable.

Any university that can't survive a couple year 15% income cut shouldn't be allowed to teach business. Steve Ross probably endured dozens of 15% downturns in his career.

I quite dislike the argument that we have bureaucracies that can't handle cuts. Since we still have a UofM, it seems they did and could handle it. From what I see of their construction frenzy, they don't seem to have learned how to live within every-changing means.

[Canadian Visitor]

Just for the sake of global context.

Australia just announced a rise in its minimum wage to $18.29 per hour [[AUD)

That's roughly $14 USD per hour

Cost of living is higher there. Big place so it varies widely, but about 20% higher would be realistic I think.

So again this would ballpark at something in the range of $11.25 US per hour fully considering PPP

[Bham1982]

ies that can't handle cuts. Since we still have a UofM, it seems they did and could handle it. From what I see of their construction frenzy, they don't seem to have learned how to live within every-changing means.

U-M is a poor example because they are a wealthy institution with one of the highest endowments on earth. State support for U-M is almost irrelevant; state support could be 0 and it wouldn't matter much.

It's the other institutions, the Westerns and Northerns and Oaklands, that are heavily dependent on state funding, and which need to raise tuition/fees in response to any state cuts.

[Wesley Mouch]

U-M is a poor example because they are a wealthy institution with one of the highest endowments on earth. State support for U-M is almost irrelevant; state support could be 0 and it wouldn't matter much.

It's the other institutions, the Westerns and Northerns and Oaklands, that are heavily dependent on state funding, and which need to raise tuition/fees in response to any state cuts.

Bad Example, granted. Underlying principle still valid.

Choice 1) Any cut to education is bad.

Choice 2) Cuts are undesirable, but sometimes necessary -- and force the school to make hard decisions which will probably benefit them and their students in the long run. [[Similar to argument that taking some jobs from kids by a higher MW is worth it to benefit 'struggling' working class argued elsewhere this thread.)

I choose 2.

[Bham1982]

I think investments in higher education are highly beneficial to the state, and would be wary of any cuts, especially considering the state has huge surpluses and has starved higher education for decades.

That said, we probably have too many state universities, IMO. Why are there three comprehensive state universities in the UP? Almost no one lives up there. Do we really need Saginaw State, Ferris State, U-M Flint and the like? Do all these institutions have to be all things to all people?

[Wesley Mouch]

I think investments in higher education are highly beneficial to the state, and would be wary of any cuts, especially considering the state has huge surpluses and has starved higher education for decades...

Investments in more buildings, more administrative positions don't improve higher education. What makes it an 'investment'? Its an expense. Expenses are managed and controlled. Calling it an investment in our future should be left to pandering politicians. I'd rather we spend $85 wisely, than $100 poorly. Measure education by results, not spending -- unless you want spending more than education.