Ontario Moves to $15 per hour minimum wage

[Canadian Visitor]

This morning the Ontario government announced a raft of labour/employment reforms, the most notable of which is a drastic rise in the minimum wage.

The current Minimum wage in Ontario is $11.40 per hour

This will rise to $14 per hour on Jan. 1 2018

And again to $15 per hour on Jan 1. 2019.

A host of other moves will extending the right to 10 unpaid emergency leave days to every worker in Ontario [[previously applied to business w/over 50 staff)

Make a minimum of 2 of those days paid.

Ban employers from asking for doctor's notes.

Make union certification easier.

Require 3 weeks paid vacation by law [[or more) to any employee w/the same employer for 5 or more years.
[[currently 2 weeks)

One last one of note, the law will now require that part-time, casual and full-time employees must all be paid the same, for the same job, unless there is material difference such as skill, output or seniority.

https://news.ontario.ca/mol/en/2017/...bour-laws.html

For those in Detroit who covet such policies or fear them, your experiment, right across the border is about to begin.

[Canadian Visitor]

I will add here, obviously the currency moves around a lot vis a vis the US Dollar varying between just over .70c to above par in the last few years.

At current exchange rates this would a min. wage of $11.13 US per hour

[emu steve]

I will add here, obviously the currency moves around a lot vis a vis the US Dollar varying between just over .70c to above par in the last few years.

At current exchange rates this would a min. wage of $11.13 US per hour

$14 [[Canadian) would equal $11.13 US?

Now the Mexicans need to do something comparable. Mexico is a 'safe haven' for dirt cheap wages.

The notion of having widely varying wages [[even min. wages) in three adjacent countries is problematic.

[Bham1982]

Good for Ontario. At least they're trying to lift wages and lessen inequality.

[Bham1982]

Now the Mexicans need to do something comparable. Mexico is a 'safe haven' for dirt cheap wages.

Mexico is the third world. You can't mandate first world level wages, or you would immediately collapse on-the-books employment and spike inflation.

[emu steve]

Mexico is the third world. You can't mandate first world level wages, or you would immediately collapse on-the-books employment and spike inflation.

I didn't mean $10+ min. wage.

It would be nice if they would raise wages say 50 cents per hour until they got to at least say $5 per hour [[American).

[Wesley Mouch]

Good for Ontario. At least they're trying to lift wages and lessen inequality.

A few cherry-picked stats from the NYTimes:

"About 12 percent of those who would gain from an increase to $10.10 live in households with incomes above $100,000. "

"Most are white"

"19 percent of those who would get the raise are sole earners. "

It is a "fact that the minimum wage is not nearly as well targeted toward poverty reduction as the earned-income tax credit, a wage subsidy whose receipt, unlike the minimum wage, is predicated on family income."

and from fivethirtyeight.com:

"A substantial number of minimum-wage workers come from better-off families. Close to half a million minimum-wage earners are in households with six-figure incomes, and a million more are in those that earn at least $60,000. Any increase in the minimum wage would benefit those people, too — and that’s not the goal of an anti-poverty effort."

and from my own Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources...

"Any minimum wage removes the bottom rung from the employment ladder of success, favoring workers already employed over those seeking work. Only about half the benefit will go to the poor, but 100% of the poor will see cost increases in life's necessities. There are much better ways of helping the poor. This is pity-liberalism at its best -- feels good, but destroys the poor."

[Canadian Visitor]

"Any minimum wage removes the bottom rung from the employment ladder of success, favoring workers already employed over those seeking work. Only about half the benefit will go to the poor, but 100% of the poor will see cost increases in life's necessities. There are much better ways of helping the poor. This is pity-liberalism at its best -- feels good, but destroys the poor."

With the greatest of respect I don't think global evidence exists for this view.

Australia has had a living wage for decades, most of Northern Europe does as well, albeit often through collective agreements, but in societies where unionization is close to universal.

Of course, a higher wage stimulate productivity investments which does reduce some low-skill jobs in number.

But there is no evidence that in affects overall employement negatively.

Nor is there evidence that it results in greater or the same levels of poverty as would otherwise be the case.

Less US think-tanks, more real-world, where have they done this would seem wise.

Also I'm not sure why the EITC is preferred tool for a conservative thinker in so far as it amounts to corporate welfare in subsidizing a job in a private business through your taxes.

I'm not saying its a bad tool, but I do start from the premise that the government should be not be in the business of subsidizing business.

[jackie5275]

A few cherry-picked stats from the NYTimes:

"About 12 percent of those who would gain from an increase to $10.10 live in households with incomes above $100,000. "

"Most are white"

"19 percent of those who would get the raise are sole earners. "

It is a "fact that the minimum wage is not nearly as well targeted toward poverty reduction as the earned-income tax credit, a wage subsidy whose receipt, unlike the minimum wage, is predicated on family income."

and from fivethirtyeight.com:

"A substantial number of minimum-wage workers come from better-off families. Close to half a million minimum-wage earners are in households with six-figure incomes, and a million more are in those that earn at least $60,000. Any increase in the minimum wage would benefit those people, too — and that’s not the goal of an anti-poverty effort."

and from my own Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources...

"Any minimum wage removes the bottom rung from the employment ladder of success, favoring workers already employed over those seeking work. Only about half the benefit will go to the poor, but 100% of the poor will see cost increases in life's necessities. There are much better ways of helping the poor. This is pity-liberalism at its best -- feels good, but destroys the poor."

Are these stats applicable to Ontario or the United States?

[Richard]

Most service related businesses can adapt through the use of kiosks,fast food,banks,even Starbucks is rolling out kiosk baristas.

So does the elimination of those lower paying jobs relate to higher paying jobs in building the kiosks,who pays the training.

How does this effect Detroit for those maybe coming over for jobs or is that not an issue?

Seattle instituted a minimum base wage similar and it so far has been a mixed reaction to how it effects the segment of the population that it is intended to help.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

How can some of these fast food workers demand $15 per hr, when they can't even get your food order correct?? I'm all for everyone getting a raise, but I've had this happen to me time and time again.

[Richard]

How can some of these fast food workers demand $15 per hr, when they can't even get your food order correct?? I'm all for everyone getting a raise, but I've had this happen to me time and time again.

Lol,I have just stopped using the drive through,just easier to deal with it at the counter.

To me anyways it is a bandaid fix to pander without addressing the underlying problem.Budget problems caused many schools to eliminate basic trades programs,and even worse for women because even though they are extremely capable of doing skilled jobs but the stigma that prevents them.

Pay 2 more a higher wage while eliminating entry level jobs for 10.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I would close my business before attempting to comply with such silly rules. I hope Detroit never ever does this. Eliminating the bottom rung is no way to move people up the ladder.

[Richard]

That's why people like Mr Sanders like to push it,so it wipes out the small mom n pop places then ads more to the It is the evil corporations fault.

Then rush out to buy a new beachfront house to ease the pain of getting shafted during an election,the transfer of wealth continues because it is easier to get large chunks of money from a few special interests then it is to pass the hat among thousands of little ones.

[O3H]

I would rather spend money in the USA for cheaper university education, than have illiterates and idiots making $15 an hour. We got it all backwards and upside down. Build a firm foundation K-12, and generate solid citizens via education first.

[Canadian Visitor]

I would rather spend money in the USA for cheaper university education, than have illiterates and idiots making $15 an hour. We got it all backwards and upside down. Build a firm foundation K-12, and generate solid citizens via education first.

I'm not clear on why you believe both aren't possible?

Ontario has a HS graduation rate of 86.5%

And a post-secondary [[college or uni) attainment rate of 70%

Both among the highest in the world.

A new policy was also implemented last year that make tuition for post-secondary free to the majority of students from middle-income or less households

[Bham1982]

I would rather spend money in the USA for cheaper university education, than have illiterates and idiots making $15 an hour. We got it all backwards and upside down. Build a firm foundation K-12, and generate solid citizens via education first.

It isn't "either or". It doesn't even make any sense. Why would you prefer having people impoverished for the sake of spending more money on K-12?

[Bham1982]

I would close my business before attempting to comply with such silly rules.

Yeah, that'll show 'em. You would rather lose all your wealth than pay a modest, fair wage, in the richest country on the planet.

Or you'll have to move your business to Zimbabwe or something. Pretty much every non-impoverished country has a minimum wage. Even Mexico has a minimum wage, which is being raised considerably.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Yeah, that'll show 'em. You would rather lose all your wealth than pay a modest, fair wage, in the richest country on the planet.

Or you'll have to move your business to Zimbabwe or something. Pretty much every non-impoverished country has a minimum wage. Even Mexico has a minimum wage, which is being raised considerably.

I would lose all my wealth trying to run a restaurant with such wages [[and other work rules outlined above). Successful restaurants operate on thin margins. Why do you think fast food- and even some full service chains- are rapidly automating? [[hint: West coast cities with absurd minimum wages, even in tipped positions, has led to the dichotomy of more restaurant closings than openings, even in a strong economy) Why are high end restaurants in many cities adding service charges and eliminating tipping? [[Hint: money that once went to waiters and bartenders is now being used to pay the kitchen staff as well; i.e. well compensated career servers are now paying the kitchen, while very rich, liberal owners- NYC's Danny Meyer the first bastard among them- get to brag that they've given the kitchen a living wage).

Rules outlined in the Ontario case, including but not just the wages, will lead in 5 years' time to there being, generally, fast food chain restaurants and very expensive restaurants, with very little middle ground places. Mom and pop places can't operate under those rules. Restaurants are great meritocracies. The people that own and run them generally started out in low wage, low skill positions, and worked their way up. Automating fast food and regulating out of existence the independent small restaurants and bars will eliminate, besides many establishments, the opportunities for the employees to get a job as a dishwasher at age 14, and end up owning their own place many years later, as I did.

Utopian fools can structure society in their minds any way they want. In the meanwhile, some of us have to worry about making payroll and what the public is willing to pay for a steak.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The one bright side for us in Detroit is that, as Windsor's restaurants [[and to a lesser extent bars) decline and close in the coming years, Detroit will be an oasis of choices for our friendly Ontarian neighbors. And BOY OH BOY will American restaurants be cheaper!

[Canadian Visitor]

The one bright side for us in Detroit is that, as Windsor's restaurants [[and to a lesser extent bars) decline and close in the coming years, Detroit will be an oasis of choices for our friendly Ontarian neighbors. And BOY OH BOY will American restaurants be cheaper!

Couple of questions for you Mickey....

Do you pay any kind of health benefits for your staff?

A small Ontario business, typically, does not. Because core healthcare is otherwise covered, along with prescription drugs for seniors and soon to be youth.

Also, a small business in Ontario pays all-in corporate tax of 15.5% on net income [[none on gross receipts). My impression is that this is less than what many small businesses pay in Mi.

I don't think the cost burden will be all that bad. Keep in mind, more people will be able to afford to eat out after the changes.

Regardless, we shall see what change looks like soon enough.

[Oddz313]

I would lose all my wealth trying to run a restaurant with such wages [[and other work rules outlined above). Successful restaurants operate on thin margins. Why do you think fast food- and even some full service chains- are rapidly automating? [[hint: West coast cities with absurd minimum wages, even in tipped positions, has led to the dichotomy of more restaurant closings than openings, even in a strong economy) Why are high end restaurants in many cities adding service charges and eliminating tipping? [[Hint: money that once went to waiters and bartenders is now being used to pay the kitchen staff as well; i.e. well compensated career servers are now paying the kitchen, while very rich, liberal owners- NYC's Danny Meyer the first bastard among them- get to brag that they've given the kitchen a living wage).

Rules outlined in the Ontario case, including but not just the wages, will lead in 5 years' time to there being, generally, fast food chain restaurants and very expensive restaurants, with very little middle ground places. Mom and pop places can't operate under those rules. Restaurants are great meritocracies. The people that own and run them generally started out in low wage, low skill positions, and worked their way up. Automating fast food and regulating out of existence the independent small restaurants and bars will eliminate, besides many establishments, the opportunities for the employees to get a job as a dishwasher at age 14, and end up owning their own place many years later, as I did.

Utopian fools can structure society in their minds any way they want. In the meanwhile, some of us have to worry about making payroll and what the public is willing to pay for a steak.

Everyone I know that owns a restaurant is well off, wait staff is usually still exempt from standard min wage as well

[emu steve]

Yeah, doesn't wait staff get paid 2 - 3 bucks an hour?

[Bham1982]

The one bright side for us in Detroit is that, as Windsor's restaurants [[and to a lesser extent bars) decline and close in the coming years, Detroit will be an oasis of choices for our friendly Ontarian neighbors. And BOY OH BOY will American restaurants be cheaper!

Restaurants in NYC and SF now have $15 minimum wage. Those are the premiere restaurant cities in North America. NYC is probably the dining capitol of the planet.

You really, honestly think that people are all going to New Jersey and Oakland to eat out? LOL. We're talking like an extra dollar or two on your bill.

And do you actually know any long-term restaurateurs? I do. They're wealthy. If you own a successful restaurant you can live anywhere in Metro Detroit. If you own a couple you're likely rich. Many pay dishwashers and the like off-the-books, well below minimum wage. I wouldn't be crying for the owners.

[Oddz313]

Restaurants in NYC and SF now have $15 minimum wage. Those are the premiere restaurant cities in North America. NYC is probably the dining capitol of the planet.

You really, honestly think that people are all going to New Jersey and Oakland to eat out? LOL. We're talking like an extra dollar or two on your bill.

And do you actually know any long-term restaurateurs? I do. They're wealthy. If you own a successful restaurant you can live anywhere in Metro Detroit. If you own a couple you're likely rich. Many pay dishwashers and the like off-the-books, well below minimum wage. I wouldn't be crying for the owners.

Everyone always wants more, it's human nature but I will not by into this long time propaganda of feeling bad for people that are doing well that just want more.