After Q Line

[MicrosoftFan]

Everybody knows that the Q Line is opening this weekend. But amid all the excitement- and protests- I am sure many, myself included, are wondering what will come after the Q Line. Well, I sat down to my computer at 2:00 PM today and started making a plan for what a Detroit Light Rail system that includes the Q Line might look like.

The System I planned out has 7 lines-
Q Line [[Woodward) Downtown-Pontiac
M Line [[Michigan) Downtown-Airport
G Line [[Gratiot) Downtown-Mt. Clemens
S Line [[Downriver) Downtown-Flat Rock
N Line [[Mound) Downtown-Utica
L Line [[Lodge) Downtown-Novi
J Line [[Jefferson) Downtown-Grosse Pointe

It's 144 miles [[that's all of it though) long and 20.1 Miles of that is side-running streetcar track, 67.9 is center-running light rail in dedicated lanes with signal priority, and a whopping 66 miles is grade separated.

Now 144 Miles is nothing but a pipe dream, so I chopped up the lines into phases. Phase One is an expanded streetcar system, Phase Two extends to inner ring suburbs and Detroit city limits, Phase Three extends to the Airport and Pontiac, Phase Four fills out the other lines to their limits, and the pipe-dream Extended Phase has, well, pipe-dream far reaching lines.

I'd like to hear your take on it, as well as any questions you might have about lines or stations, constructive criticism, what should be left out, and what should be added. Including general discussion on Detroit's transit future.

View Map Here:
VIEW

Thanks,
MicrosoftFan

[emu steve]

I'll offer, without editorial comment, the Wikipedia entry for the D.C. subway.

It covers 117 miles and has averaged as many as almost 800K trips per weekday [[June, 2008).

Trying to come up with enough money [[operating subsidies) has been a real challenge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro

[Warrenite84]

How about along 12 Mile for an East West route? Macomb Community College, GM Tech Center and Universal Mall would be on the route...

[MicrosoftFan]

Suburb to suburb lines have a key problem- while workers can park and ride on the line, once they get off they are in an unwalkable suburb, or can only reach the buildings closest to the station.

[Hermod]

The System I planned out has 7 lines-
Q Line [[Woodward) Downtown-Pontiac
M Line [[Michigan) Downtown-Airport
G Line [[Gratiot) Downtown-Mt. Clemens
S Line [[Downriver) Downtown-Flat Rock
N Line [[Mound) Downtown-Utica
L Line [[Lodge) Downtown-Novi
J Line [[Jefferson) Downtown-Grosse Pointe

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

[hybridy]

it would seem that one would want service parallel with the jefferies out to plymouth

[Scottathew]

Love it MSF! I would consider extending the N Line to possibly Mound at M-59.

[Junjie]

Everybody knows that the Q Line is opening this weekend. But amid all the excitement- and protests- I am sure many, myself included, are wondering what will come after the Q Line. Well, I sat down to my computer at 2:00 PM today and started making a plan for what a Detroit Light Rail system that includes the Q Line might look like.

The System I planned out has 7 lines-
Q Line [[Woodward) Downtown-Pontiac
M Line [[Michigan) Downtown-Airport
G Line [[Gratiot) Downtown-Mt. Clemens
S Line [[Downriver) Downtown-Flat Rock
N Line [[Mound) Downtown-Utica
L Line [[Lodge) Downtown-Novi
J Line [[Jefferson) Downtown-Grosse Pointe

It's 144 miles [[that's all of it though) long and 20.1 Miles of that is side-running streetcar track, 67.9 is center-running light rail in dedicated lanes with signal priority, and a whopping 66 miles is grade separated.

Now 144 Miles is nothing but a pipe dream, so I chopped up the lines into phases. Phase One is an expanded streetcar system, Phase Two extends to inner ring suburbs and Detroit city limits, Phase Three extends to the Airport and Pontiac, Phase Four fills out the other lines to their limits, and the pipe-dream Extended Phase has, well, pipe-dream far reaching lines.

I'd like to hear your take on it, as well as any questions you might have about lines or stations, constructive criticism, what should be left out, and what should be added. Including general discussion on Detroit's transit future.

View Map Here:
VIEW

Thanks,
MicrosoftFan

Why did you choose to run the L on the freeway instead of along Grand River? Not saying that's bad, I'm just curious since all your other routes run along arterials.

I wonder if it wouldn't be more interesting to layer an expanded streetcar network on top of a few rapid transit lines, rather than making one system that moves between streetcar and rapid transit modes. And note that by the time you get to Flat Rock or Pontiac, you're almost talking commuter rail distances. The number of closely spaces streetcar stops means that long trips are going to take a very long time to get all the way downtown [[or out of downtown). 30 minutes just to get from downtown to New Center means a trip to Pontiac will easily be over an hour, not including wait time at the station.

Any plan to make a system map?

[casscorridor]

None of these will or should happen. Streetcars [[defined as trams that run mixed with traffic in the street) aren't an optimal form of transport, and don't offer much more than a bus. Light rail with dedicated right-of-ways are far superior. Any new transport lines should be built of higher standard than the idiotically named QLine.

[MicrosoftFan]

Why did you choose to run the L on the freeway instead of along Grand River? Not saying that's bad, I'm just curious since all your other routes run along arterials.

I wonder if it wouldn't be more interesting to layer an expanded streetcar network on top of a few rapid transit lines, rather than making one system that moves between streetcar and rapid transit modes. And note that by the time you get to Flat Rock or Pontiac, you're almost talking commuter rail distances. The number of closely spaces streetcar stops means that long trips are going to take a very long time to get all the way downtown [[or out of downtown). 30 minutes just to get from downtown to New Center means a trip to Pontiac will easily be over an hour, not including wait time at the station.

Any plan to make a system map?

A system map is in the works, if I can figure out how to use GIMP

[MicrosoftFan]

it would seem that one would want service parallel with the jefferies out to plymouth

I had definitely thought of that idea, however that would be an entirely park and ride line. Running along the rail corridor parallel to jefferies is in an industrial area and there aren't that many major job centers along Jefferies.

[MicrosoftFan]

None of these will or should happen. Streetcars [[defined as trams that run mixed with traffic in the street) aren't an optimal form of transport, and don't offer much more than a bus. Light rail with dedicated right-of-ways are far superior. Any new transport lines should be built of higher standard than the idiotically named QLine.

66 Miles of my system is fully grade separated, and another 67 is in dedicated center running traffic lanes. Running streetcars would be stupid, but streetcars in city centers and light rail everywhere else is a good combination in my eyes.

[dtowncitylover]

None of these will or should happen. Streetcars [[defined as trams that run mixed with traffic in the street) aren't an optimal form of transport, and don't offer much more than a bus. Light rail with dedicated right-of-ways are far superior. Any new transport lines should be built of higher standard than the idiotically named QLine.

Seriously. How many times does it need to be said that TRAMS ARE NOT A MODE OF SUBURBAN/COMMUTER TRANSIT. They are an urban tool of transit not meant to go long distances.

[MicrosoftFan]

At this point, heavy rail is not an option when you are talking $7-8 Billion+ to build a 5 or 6 station subway line such as in Los Angeles.

LRT can be much faster than Streetcars. LA's Green Line is fully grade separated along freeways and has an average speed including stops of around 38 MPH. This means that the L [[Lodge) Line would take around 35-40 minutes from New Center to Novi.

Q Line rolling stock is quite stupid. I would hope in an expanded system Siemens S70 trains would be used- they have a top speed of 66 Mph.

[dtowncitylover]

At this point, heavy rail is not an option when you are talking $7-8 Billion+ to build a 5 or 6 station subway line such as in Los Angeles.

LRT can be much faster than Streetcars. LA's Green Line is fully grade separated along freeways and has an average speed including stops of around 38 MPH. This means that the L [[Lodge) Line would take around 35-40 minutes from New Center to Novi.

Q Line rolling stock is quite stupid. I would hope in an expanded system Siemens S70 trains would be used- they have a top speed of 66 Mph.

Uhhhh...what about the cost of ripping up freeways to put up light rail?! No light rail into the suburbs would be feasible on that route. If we want to connect western Oakland County our best bet is to introduce commuter rail on the rail tracks through Livonia into Northville and up into Novi and those townships.

QLine rolling stock are modern streetcars, not sure what you were expecting?

[MicrosoftFan]

Uhhhh...what about the cost of ripping up freeways to put up light rail?! No light rail into the suburbs would be feasible on that route. If we want to connect western Oakland County our best bet is to introduce commuter rail on the rail tracks through Livonia into Northville and up into Novi and those townships.

QLine rolling stock are modern streetcars, not sure what you were expecting?

Diesel Commuter rail is low ridership and high cost, and only works for commuters. Plus, it has low frequency and must share rail tracks with freight trains. It is definetly not rapid transit.

In Denver, freeways were repaired while adding LRT at the same time. We could repair our potholed freeways while adding rail at the same time.

I would have liked proper LRT vehicles on Q Line to allow for more expansion.

[Atticus]

The realist in me suspects the next line will be Jefferson Avenue. Street car again, serving between Cobo and Belle Isle.

[emu steve]

The realist in me suspects the next line will be Jefferson Avenue. Street car again, serving between Cobo and Belle Isle.

I AGREE!!

I see two issues or two dimensions: DDOT mass transit vs. regional mass transit.

Unless the tax payer see QLine as the greatest thing since... Detroit will go solo and build short distance streetcar lines to move people along a well defined route.

As I suggested, I'd like to see say a 3 - 4 mile streetcar down E. Jefferson and if possible a good sized parking lot or garage so that drivers could drive say a mile or two to the terminus and hop aboard QLine2. [[I have something similar in No. Virginia. There is a VRE rail - heavy rail, which I can drive to. Park my car in a gravel lot, and take an actual train to downtown D.C.).

The streetcar could pick up riders along E. Jefferson who live between say Belle Isle and Cobo AND also allow riders to drive to the eastern most stop [[terminus).

I could see a streetcar system which picks up say up to say 750 to 1,000 riders at or near the eastern terminus and takes them downtown during rush hours and deliver those same riders home in the evening.

The spin off is that many residents would find it very positive and help improve the desirability of those neighborhoods.

That is one way to strengthen those neighborhoods... Neighborhood values would increase and new housing would be built.

[MicrosoftFan]

I AGREE!!

I see two issues or two dimensions: DDOT mass transit vs. regional mass transit.

Unless the tax payer see QLine as the greatest thing since... Detroit will go solo and build short distance streetcar lines to move people along a well defined route.

As I suggested, I'd like to see say a 3 - 4 mile streetcar down E. Jefferson and if possible a good sized parking lot or garage so that drivers could drive say a mile or two to the terminus and hop aboard QLine2. [[I have something similar in No. Virginia. There is a VRE rail - heavy rail, which I can drive to. Park my car in a gravel lot, and take an actual train to downtown D.C.).

The streetcar could pick up riders along E. Jefferson who live between say Belle Isle and Cobo AND also allow riders to drive to the eastern most stop [[terminus).

I could see a streetcar system which picks up say up to say 750 to 1,000 riders at or near the eastern terminus and takes them downtown during rush hours and deliver those same riders home in the evening.

The spin off is that many residents would find it very positive and help improve the desirability of those neighborhoods.

That is one way to strengthen those neighborhoods... Neighborhood values would increase and new housing would be built.

If Grosse Pointe residents will park and ride, it will succeed.

[emu steve]

I would suspect if an E. Jefferson line were to go out 4 - 5 miles and have dedicated parking, it would be very, very successful.

And it would be nice to have people in a big city live close to where they work [[instead of going 10, 15, 20 or 25 miles out in the suburbs).

[professorscott]

Diesel Commuter rail is low ridership and high cost, and only works for commuters. Plus, it has low frequency and must share rail tracks with freight trains. It is definetly not rapid transit.

Well, in some places. It is not uniformly true that commuter rail trains use freight tracks, and it is not uniformly true that they have low ridership or low frequency. Here, just for one example, are the times that MBTA's Framingham-Worcester line trains leave for Boston between about 6 and 8:30 a.m.:

05:56

06:05

06:36

06:46

07:11

07:42

07:50

08:11

I would have liked proper LRT vehicles on Q Line to allow for more expansion.

The vehicles on Woodward can go as far as you'd like, and they can go up to 45 miles per hour, which is as fast as they could go in, or adjacent to, traffic. Without separation, it is terribly unsafe to have rail vehicles moving faster than cars are going. Anyhow, QLine is, at least for now, a one-off. There are no plans to expand it and never have been [[the abortive DDOT effort was an entirely different animal, not an expansion of this one) and any likely increase in route miles will likely occur, as others have indicated here, by putting lines on additional streets in/near downtown.

If we ever do get funding for a truly enhanced, regional system by some means, under the current law that created the RTA, it will have to be some type of bus transit unless the RTA can get a supermajority to agree on rail transit. If that miracle somehow does occur, then the system can be expanded by however much the funding allows, in some type of phased fashion. But it is cheaper to create commuter rail than light rail, assuming there are tracks available where you need them to be, because then all you have to buy are trains. The trick is that the tracks are all privately owned by companies that would prefer not to share them with others.

[MicrosoftFan]

Well, in some places. It is not uniformly true that commuter rail trains use freight tracks, and it is not uniformly true that they have low ridership or low frequency. Here, just for one example, are the times that MBTA's Framingham-Worcester line trains leave for Boston between about 6 and 8:30 a.m.:

05:56

06:05

06:36

06:46

07:11

07:42

07:50

08:11

But that's Boston, if you take a look at the most successful new commuter rail systems [[Salt Lake City & Miami), they have around 10-15k riders per day and off-peak frequency ranging from 30 minutes to an hour. Also, they are purely designed for Park and Ride operations to and from downtowns.

To have a true rapid transit, hop on hop off service, LRT or Subway is needed to get people to take the train from one place to another on non-commuting trips.

[stasu1213]

I was one who was also a champion for light rail in every main artery of the city but is willing to lean on the idea of express or rapid busses for the spoke streets. Rapid busses are cost efficient and the streets wouldn't have to be totally gutted and replaced at a costly price such as the costly redoing of only three miles of Woodward. I would love to see rapid busses that leave downtown and only stop at the airport and Ann Arbor. The same for Gratiot, Grand River, and Jefferson. A strong Mass Transportation lobbyists is needed to go to the State House to get it done. Laying down more rail is very costly

[EastsideAl]

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

In cleaning out my father's stuff I found the death certificate for his grandfather, who was killed when the car he was driving was hit by an interurban near Gratiot and 9 Mile in 1910.

My grandmother [[my father's mother) would talk about when they moved, after her father's death, into a brand new house on the otherwise empty street that would become Eastlawn [[funny how history can run in cycles, ain't it?) and her mother was always deeply unsettled by the sight of the interurbans running on Jefferson, 3 blocks away.

[casscorridor]

The best thing Detroit can do to improve its public transportation system is improving buses. Make them frequent. Make them easy to use. Clear signs that tell you where buses go. Nice bus shelters. Smart cards for paying that also work on the streetcar and People Mover.

Commuter trains like the one proposed from Ann Arbor are cute, but comically antiquated and run at such low frequency that they don't offer much flexibility to riders. Light-rail would be the best possible option for connecting the suburbs to the city.