Detroit's Problem is a Lack of Job, Not Too Much Gentrification

**313WX** · May-06-17, 05:07 AM

I thought this was interesting commentary about the state of the city over the past several years...

http://www.bridgemi.com/guest-commen...gentrification

**Danny** · May-06-17, 07:07 AM

There is job creation in Detroit, but in much slower pace. It this moment in most from Midtown to Gilberttown. It's folks from the suburbs have all the best jobs and folks from Detroit and other poor areas the dirty jobs [[ like cleaning up their mess from the circular files.)

As for Gentrification in Detroit is speeding up thanks the Gilbert Gang. More exotic stores are popping up like mushrooms in Gilberttown Detroit and Midtown areas. While poor folks are put out and hitting 8 Mile Rd.

Detroit is getting better. White folks want their city back and blacks and Hispanics are being pushed out. My dad has told me this and it has come to pass.

**Bigdd** · May-06-17, 07:45 AM

It's not a lack of jobs,.. it's a lack of anyone that can DO a job.

I'm a business owner in Detroit,.. and I tried for 11 years to find anyone that could mow lawn. Finally had to hire a company from the burbs to do it.

I'm not making that up.

In 35 years of working in Detroit and Highland Park,.. I haven't met any local that could use/read a tape measure.

**JBMcB** · May-06-17, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

It's not a lack of jobs,.. it's a lack of anyone that can DO a job.

I had a co-worker who was very involved with Focus Hope until he quit for roughly the same reason. He was involved in creating, first, the remedial curriculum so students could get into the machinists program. Then he helped create the pre-remedial program, as applicants couldn't even get through the basic level. Neither program worked very well, but instead of revamping them, he claimed, they tried creating further programs, and blamed him for not making the remedial programs easy enough.

Keep in mind we're talking middle school level mathematics and basic reading comprehension.

**Meddle** · May-06-17, 10:16 AM

Combine the posts above and you have the bigger picture of the problem nationwide. It's a mismatch of jobs for the available and willing workforce. Too many people don't want to WORK to collect a paycheck. Or they don't know how to do basic tasks and are not willing or able to learn.

When I started, I would take any job I could find whether it was assembling bowling trophies or scooping and stacking red hot steel pieces as they dropped from behind a forging hammer. I didn't really care.

Today, nobody would be willing to either for less than $20/hr while I was doing it for $5 or $6

**Meddle** · May-06-17, 10:22 AM

There's another complication also. Not too long ago, a major company posted opening for work-from-home Customer Service. I was ready to apply and then hit one detail. They insisted on a commitment to 8 hours straight 5 days a week minimum, subject to extra hours ant their discretion.

I could have committed to 40 hours a week, but not necessarily the way they demanded. I might have needed 4 hour blocks for example due to physical issues of sitting in one place. And I would have needed a more flexible schedule of coming and going.

When you have people working on site, they are better prepared and able to work set schedules. Work-from-home positions need more flexibility.

**Bigdd** · May-06-17, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

I had a co-worker who was very involved with Focus Hope until he quit for roughly the same reason. He was involved in creating, first, the remedial curriculum so students could get into the machinists program. Then he helped create the pre-remedial program, as applicants couldn't even get through the basic level. Neither program worked very well, but instead of revamping them, he claimed, they tried creating further programs, and blamed him for not making the remedial programs easy enough.

Keep in mind we're talking middle school level mathematics and basic reading comprehension.

The problem as I see it had to do with programs like AFDC, which used to pay mothers for having illegitimate children. That program was reformed by Engler in the late '90's,.. but a lot of those sorts of programs are still in effect at reduced levels.

Hundreds of thousands of Michigan children [[in the 20-45 year old age range especially) grew up in households where mom sat around the house, and received a stack of government checks on the first of the month. To them that is "normal". Checks just come in the mail from this magical government thing.

As such,.. they viewed school as truly useless. They know a $5 bill from a $20,.. and knew they only had to scratch their name on the back of a check to cash it at the bank.

So they really truly thought they had no use for school, and I've always had a lot of sympathy for the teachers that tried in vain to teach them.

Now there is this population of completely uneducated people that believe deep down that working is for suckers. So unless you're going to pay them big bucks for doing almost nothing,... they're simply not interested. Then when push comes to shove and they realize there isn't an endless supply of free checks [[applies to males especially),.. they aren't qualified to do anything, and often can;t be taught because they lack basic reading and math skills that just take too long to teach.

I grew up watching my dad go to work 40+ hours a week. So to me,.. working 40-60 hours a week just seemed normal.

**Wesley Mouch** · May-06-17, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

The problem as I see it had to do with programs like ADC, which used to pay mothers for having illegitimate children. That program was ended by Engler,.. but a lot of those sorts of programs are still in effect at reduced levels.

Hundreds of thousands of Michigan children grew up in households where mom sat around the house, and received a stack of government checks on the first of the month. To them that is "normal". Checks just come in the mail from this magical government thing.

As such,.. they viewed school as truly useless. They know a $5 bill from a $20,.. and knew they only had to scratch their name on the back of a check to cash it at the bank.

So they really truly thought they had no use for school, and I've always had a lot of sympathy for the teachers that tried in vain to teach them.

Now there is this population of completely uneducated people that believe deep down that working is for suckers. So unless you're going to pay them big bucks for doing almost nothing,... they're simply not interested.

I grew up watching my dad go to work 40+ hours a week. So to me,.. working 40-60 hours a week just seemed normal.

I share your concern that programs discourage market participation. But I also believe we absolutely must care for everyone. Social programs are critical, but we've built them all wrong. Great in theory -- but mostly ineffective and counter-produtive in practice.

**Richard** · May-06-17, 12:06 PM

I wonder if that is the difference when it comes to work effort,if one is not taught in their younger years then all of the sudden being thrown out there so to speak.

total amount of collected benefits is $24k a year,why now grass when you can sit at home.

My sisters both have masters in child physiology,they never worked a day in their life,maybe because my parents being old school where the woman was not expected to earn,upper middle class,be a male and you want a bicycle you better grab that snow shovel or mower and earn it.

My first paying job was at 12 cleaning up the trash weekend at the drive in movie theater.There was a stigma back then though,you were expected to pay your own way and eccept nothing from nobody.

In my business it blows my mind the amount of people that actually expect you to provide your goods and skills for free,and they do this without a second thought like it is owed to them.But good luck finding somebody to work for free for you.

It is a mess everywhere but not contained to one age group.

**Richard** · May-06-17, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I share your concern that programs discourage market participation. But I also believe we absolutely must care for everyone. Social programs are critical, but we've built them all wrong. Great in theory -- but mostly ineffective and counter-produtive in practice.

The original intent was as a hand up and not a career,not so much now but not to long ago it was more advailable to some then others,which in turn created what we have today,the focus should be on how to reverse that cycle but it does not seem like a priority,unless it is happening in another country,then it becomes a no holds barred.

Somewhere along the line we lost site of our priorities.

**bust** · May-06-17, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

When I started, I would take any job I could find whether it was assembling bowling trophies or scooping and stacking red hot steel pieces as they dropped from behind a forging hammer. I didn't really care.

Today, nobody would be willing to either for less than $20/hr while I was doing it for $5 or $6

I'm not sure when you were doing those jobs or if you already baked inflation into your numbers.

If you were getting paid $6/hour in 1970 that's the same as getting paid $38.70/hour today:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703

$0.93/hour in 1970 would be equivalent to $6.00 today:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703

The places where they have implemented a $15 minimum wage require paying the equivalent of $2.33/hour in 1970:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703

As we get older and we compare what we made and what people are asking for today it's very easy to underestimate how powerfully inflation affects the equation.

**Meddle** · May-06-17, 01:19 PM

Oldest W2 I can find right now is '82 and it shows $14K, but I don't know if that was a full 2,080 hours or not. By then, I had owned a house for several years.

I also found a 1099-Int showing $85 in interest earned. I know I didn't have much in the bank then. I don't get that now on a 5 figure balance.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-06-17, 02:56 PM

The working age people in Detroit without jobs, by and large, are not unemployed for lack of jobs. Many can't or won't get hired even when lots of places are looking for help. There is a large pool of people in Detroit who fall into one or more of the following three categories:
1) No functional high school education
2) No work history whatsoever
3) Unreadiness to work [[this can be substance abuse, inability/unwillingness to arrive at work on time consistently, act professionally, etc)

Even when projects are hiring in the city or nearby, that large unemployed pool is not full of people who can be employed. The city, county and various church and community orgs work with people on all three of the problem areas. Some people break out and enter the mainstream workforce. But many don't, and no one can do it for someone else. The city can't make you get your GED, learn a trade, and show up on time for your interview. And it certainly can't make you work hard once you get hired. Success or failure is up to the individual. We should always try to help, but we need to be realistic. Some people will never accept a hand up. My uncle John has been a lifelong loser. He had everything handed to him [[education, job opportunities, social connections, etc). But he liked to sleep in, gamble, and drink. So he is now a bitter and broke old man, and he spitefully resents the world for it. But there are people who are willing to try, so we should help them.

Also we should embrace every possible low wage job that might come to the city. People without a job history, skills and education are eligible only to be hired in low wage manual labor, retail, or service industry positions. They can move up once in them, if they are good. But when you take away the bottom rung, it is not likely people will climb the ladder.

**313WX** · May-06-17, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

It's not a lack of jobs,.. it's a lack of anyone that can DO a job.

I'm a business owner in Detroit,.. and I tried for 11 years to find anyone that could mow lawn. Finally had to hire a company from the burbs to do it.

I'm not making that up.

In 35 years of working in Detroit and Highland Park,.. I haven't met any local that could use/read a tape measure.

There *IS* a lack of jobs.

The fact that we still have a ton of young, educated people still fleeing the state to places such as Tennessee, California, Minnesota, etc. in order to find lucrative career opportunities supports that claim.

As far as the situation you faced, you simply weren't looking hard enough. I found the person that has done my yard work for the past couple of years on Craigslist, and I found the person before that on Craigslist. They both lived in Detroit or did business in Detroit.

**313WX** · May-06-17, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Also we should embrace every possible low wage job that might come to the city. People without a job history, skills and education are eligible only to be hired in low wage manual labor, retail, or service industry positions. They can move up once in them, if they are good. But when you take away the bottom rung, it is not likely people will climb the ladder.

Part of the problem is that these "low wage jobs" tend to be dead-end. Since in the Great Recession in particular, companies are no longer interested in training upward and will only award hard-working low wage employees with more work. Long gone are the days in which you could be promoted to CEO after paying your dues, at least not without a college degree.

**313WX** · May-06-17, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by bust

I'm not sure when you were doing those jobs or if you already baked inflation into your numbers.

If you were getting paid $6/hour in 1970 that's the same as getting paid $38.70/hour today:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703

$0.93/hour in 1970 would be equivalent to $6.00 today:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703

The places where they have implemented a $15 minimum wage require paying the equivalent of $2.33/hour in 1970:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201703

As we get older and we compare what we made and what people are asking for today it's very easy to underestimate how powerfully inflation affects the equation.

Very good point.

It's not just the lack of jobs either, but the lack of good-paying jobs.

In reality, only being able to find a job at McDonalds or Meijer part-time [[or a temporary job) is just as bad as relying on government assistance, if not worse.

**masterblaster** · May-06-17, 04:28 PM

The title of the article does not reflect the content of the article.

It seems you have a very, very, very pessimistic outlook on the local economy, and the path that the city and metro area is going. Your outlook has merit.

But this article does not even address a lack of jobs at all. For instance, nowhere in this article does it state that college graduates are fleeing the state for Tennessee, California, Minnesota. I'm not saying it's not true, but this article doesn't talk about that. It's just another article complaining about gentrification, white people moving back to save Detroit, and the issues of the native population being ignored.

If you believe that there are a lack of jobs, can you provide an article that talks about that?

**Richard** · May-06-17, 04:41 PM

Meh, it was an opinion written in a column.

What worries me even more is when you have a professional economist,that would have to have a college degree,I think anyways,says this.....

Buying and renovating property alone does not improve a local economy.

so why did the words shrink ?

But I guess that is how life is,you take those first crap,low paying jobs and find out it sucks not to be able to worry about paying the electricity or water so you make the sacrifice and take up night school to make yourself more marketable some will have that drive and some will not but expect the same payscale without the sacrifice.

Just like the whole collage thing some bust butt working to pay their way through collage and others think it is owed to them.

**mwilbert** · May-06-17, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

The problem as I see it had to do with programs like AFDC, which used to pay mothers for having illegitimate children. That program was reformed by Engler in the late '90's,.. but a lot of those sorts of programs are still in effect at reduced levels.

Regardless of the merits of AFDC, it was a federal program which was ended by Congress and Bill Clinton in 1993/1994, not by Engler.

**mwilbert** · May-06-17, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

It's not a lack of jobs,.. it's a lack of anyone that can DO a job.

I'm a business owner in Detroit,.. and I tried for 11 years to find anyone that could mow lawn. Finally had to hire a company from the burbs to do it.

Can't dispute your experience, but people come by asking to mow the lawn all the time. Also shovel snow. Not all are equally good at it, but certainly some of them do a good job.

**JBMcB** · May-06-17, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Part of the problem is that these "low wage jobs" tend to be dead-end.

I know a half dozen people who started out in "dead end" low wage jobs. If you show up to work on time and do what you're told, you get promoted fairly rapidly, as you are ahead of a lot of others in the labor pool. If you show some initiative and interest in your job, you get promoted faster. You might not be making enough to support a family, at first at least, but you'll make enough to live on.

This is what entry level "dead end" jobs are for. Nobody is going to hire you at $20/hour if they don't already know you are going to be a decent worker. You prove that by holding down a crappy job at $10/hour for a couple of years.

**313WX** · May-06-17, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

What worries me even more is when you have a professional economist,that would have to have a college degree,I think anyways,says this.....

Buying and renovating property alone does not improve a local economy.

When reading her entire column in context, it makes sense to me.

What about it exactly "worries" you?

**313WX** · May-06-17, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by masterblaster

But this article does not even address a lack of jobs at all. For instance, nowhere in this article does it state that college graduates are fleeing the state for Tennessee, California, Minnesota. I'm not saying it's not true, but this article doesn't talk about that. It's just another article complaining about gentrification, white people moving back to save Detroit, and the issues of the native population being ignored.

If you believe that there are a lack of jobs, can you provide an article that talks about that?

Fair points.

My asssumption would be the author felt there was no reason to go into details about the lack of jobs in ad-nauseam [[as this SHOULD be common knowledge for any Detroiter) in yet another article in order to acknowledge the lack of jobs as being a major issue.

The numbers behind Detroit's jobs crisis

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...isis/79304512/

**Zacha341** · May-07-17, 09:18 AM

Yes, that's right. Sorta breaks up the standard narrative that only the right signals reduction in welfare. Clinton for sure spearheaded welfare reform during his administration.

Originally Posted by mwilbert

Regardless of the merits of AFDC, it was a federal program which was ended by Congress and Bill Clinton in 1993/1994, not by Engler.

**Zacha341** · May-07-17, 09:20 AM

Combine that with the inability to pass a drug test and you're even more marginalized from the ability to work [[what few jobs there are)!

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

The working age people in Detroit without jobs, by and large, are not unemployed for lack of jobs. Many can't or won't get hired even when lots of places are looking for help. There is a large pool of people in Detroit who fall into one or more of the following three categories:
1) No functional high school education
2) No work history whatsoever
3) Unreadiness to work [[this can be substance abuse, inability/unwillingness to arrive at work on time consistently, act professionally, etc)