QLine going public

[Eber Brock Ward]

Yes, but a middle-to-higher income person tends to value their time a lot more than a few $$. So if the options are: 1) sit around inside for 15 more minutes, and then spend 5 min walking to the station to get there when the train arrives, or 2) pay $5 more to take the Uber 5 minutes from now... the Uber wins every time to the mid/higher income people. That is why the headways have to get to at least the 15min range. Yes, knowing when the train arrives is great, but that still doesn't save you the time lost.

With all due respect, most middle- to higher-income people are likely to be dicking around on their phones, just like everyone else.

[stasu1213]

Agree. Waiting 15 minutes in 15 degree temps is a non-starter for those who have a choice.

That is one reason why ridership will probably fall significantly during the heart of winter or heavy rains, etc.

Hope that each station has heated overhead lights that will keep waiting passengers warm on those frigid cold days

[Hypestyles]

it would have been great for the shelters/stops to be fully enclosed, but I hope that issue does not become overwhelming in the winter. Also the maintenance of cleaning the streets needs to be addressed for wintertime slush/ice accumulation.

[KJ5]

I already could've hopped on the Mid Town Loop and 2 Woodward buses while I'm waiting to try out this bougie new streetcar for the way in to work.
I fully expect to take the bus down to the Hall & Oates and Tears for Fears show at the Joe tonight.

[emu steve]

How was ridership yesterday?

Rush hour, non-rush, Tigers' game?

I think folks during the weekend saw QLine as the chance to tour the new Woodward Corridor as kind of something one does once a while.

[Neilr]

How was ridership yesterday?

On Monday I wanted to visit a friend who is at the Vets Hospital in the DMC. I decided to take the Q so I walked to the Congress stop. Unfortunately, I got there just as the train was pulling out so I had ~20 minute wait for the next train. Same thing on the return trip at the Canfield stop. Other than the wait times, the trip was fine. Even if it were not free, as it is this week, it still would have been more economical than driving and paying for parking in the Medical Center. If the wait times improve I could see myself taking it rather than driving and paying to park.

[emu steve]

On Monday I wanted to visit a friend who is at the Vets Hospital in the DMC. I decided to take the Q so I walked to the Congress stop. Unfortunately, I got there just as the train was pulling out so I had ~20 minute wait for the next train. Same thing on the return trip at the Canfield stop. Other than the wait times, the trip was fine. Even if it were not free, as it is this week, it still would have been more economical than driving and paying for parking in the Medical Center. If the wait times improve I could see myself taking it rather than driving and paying to park.

Thanks. I think you pretty well nailed it.

As another poster indicated, once waits get to 10+ minutes things get a little 'ugh'.

Rule of thumb with D.C. subway: 6 minute waits for rush hour and 12 minutes non-rush hour.

QLine still has work to do [[and 6 minutes isn't possible now with only 6 cars).

Assuming it was non-rush hour, that 20 minutes needs to come down to less than 15 minutes and closer to 12 minutes...

[Bobl]

How did it go, with the Tiger game tonight?

[mikehamm45]

I am probably not the target market for this thing, but I really hope it catches on and it expands to the greater downtown area. A route along Gratiot to Eastern Market for example.

During opening day, I was with my wife and two kids... it was congested and crowded with 10 min plus wait times. It was fun and everyones spirits were high. We took it from Canfield to Campus Martius... on the way back we just walked. It was a great day out and it was nice to see Woodward on foot from Downtown to Midtown.

It really is not that long of a walk, I have walked longer distances to get to point A to point B in other cities.

[Bobl]

I am also not part of the target market. Aside from several visits to DIA each year, maybe a ball game [[no way will I afford a hockey game anymore), I no longer visit. One time at Hopcat, I was surprised that there were only two people of color there. I expected a little more of a cosmopolitan scene. Might as well go to Royal Oak.
It is hoped that real, reliable transit returns, and that QLine is the beginning.

[drjeff]

How did it go, with the Tiger game tonight?

It was a big fail for me. There was a Tigers game and two concerts downtown. There were only two cars running and the expected time of arrival was not even remotely close to reality. We waited at the Canfield station 5 minutes, ETA was stated to be 11 minutes, and the nearest car was still downtown going north so it was more likely to be 30 minutes. We ended up walking from Canfield to the Fox Theatre and never saw a car pass us. WTF? If there are 6 cars, why were only 2 in service on a busy night?

On the plus side, They ran a final car after 11 to pick up any stragglers that we managed to take back up to Canfield. It was nice.

[dtowncitylover]

It was a big fail for me. There was a Tigers game and two concerts downtown. There were only two cars running and the expected time of arrival was not even remotely close to reality. We waited at the Canfield station 5 minutes, ETA was stated to be 11 minutes, and the nearest car was still downtown going north so it was more likely to be 30 minutes. We ended up walking from Canfield to the Fox Theatre and never saw a car pass us. WTF? If there are 6 cars, why were only 2 in service on a busy night?

On the plus side, They ran a final car after 11 to pick up any stragglers that we managed to take back up to Canfield. It was nice.

Mine was a bit different last night, but some frustrations. I didn't know only two cars were running! Yeah, that's a huge no-no.

We also got on at Canfield after about 15 minutes of waiting. I overheard somewhere that the Sproat St. station was closed because of the arena construction. Yet we stopped anyway. Does the streetcar have to stop even though the stations was closed?

Left the game early, caught the tram in 5 minutes of waiting. Not bad but leaving early did us little as it was jam packed.

Final thought though: IT MUST GET SIGNAL PRIORITIZATION!!!

[SammyS]

Thanks. I think you pretty well nailed it.

As another poster indicated, once waits get to 10+ minutes things get a little 'ugh'.

Rule of thumb with D.C. subway: 6 minute waits for rush hour and 12 minutes non-rush hour.

QLine still has work to do [[and 6 minutes isn't possible now with only 6 cars).

Assuming it was non-rush hour, that 20 minutes needs to come down to less than 15 minutes and closer to 12 minutes...

New Center to Downtown is approximately 3 miles so let's say total Q Line route of about 8 miles.

6 cars spread evenly over 8 miles = 1.3 miles between cars. For a 6 minute wait time, average speed is about 13mph. That's unbelievably slow even when factoring in stops and lights.

For 12 minute wait time, you have a good chance beating it in a sprint

[emu steve]

Wow. It doesn't take an operations research analyst to figure out traffic patterns on a line which runs the QLine route. The line is so easy to predict: rush hour traffic of customers commuting to their place of work. And the obvious 'rush hour' of special events which might have attendance of 20K up to say 65K.

The 'rule of thumb' should be that within one hour of event time that it is 'rush hour'. When one considers game time for Tigers' night games, 7:10, then rush hour for baseball games should be the same as rush hour for non-event evenings.

So from 6 - 7 on baseball games expect, regular high volume + event volume.

P.S. I can't see less than 3 cars running even during non-rush, non-event times. Have to have enough cars running to keep the wait latency down.

QLine mgt has time to get this all fixed but when September comes we will have multiple simultaneous events which will tax everything. I think in late Sept. the Lions and Tigers both play at 1:00 p.m. on a Sunday afternoon.
Other times evening Tigers' games + LCA concerts. That could be attendance of 40 - 50K, depending how the Tigers' are drawing.

June 26: Fireworks night should be CRAZY!!! No way can the QLine produce the capacity for riders who would like to leave the driving to the streetcar drivers...

[Sandhouse]

I rode the line Wednesday noon for the first time, for the novelty of riding a streetcar in Detroit [[having been 4 years old when the last service ended, and not counting the Washington Blvd. tourist trolley).

A car appeared each time I arrived at the stop, so I don't know what the headway was. I'm not sure more than 2 cars were in use. It was 18 minutes from downtown to Wayne State.

The cars were still full of sightseers, but from the conversations many were midtown residents testing its utility. A few were actual transit users.

There are not many grab handles in the vestibules near the doors. A half-blind guy struggled into the crowd of tourists, groping for a handhold that wasn't there. Passengers guided his hands to one of the few hand-holds before the car started.

It's smooth and quiet, but certainly no faster than a bus. There were several unexplained long stops that seems to be caused by right-turning auto traffic.

I watched a restaurant maitre'd warn a kid driving a delivery truck that he could no longer park by the curb. Some haven't got the message. The car waited for 4 or 5 minutes just short of the southern end of the line, futilely beeping its wimpy horn, for a car parked on the track. Passengers were incredulous when the driver was seen to be buying food from a sidewalk vendor and didn't move her car until a cop showed up with lights flashing. She drove away without one of the new $500 tickets, so evidently they're not going hog-wild with citations yet. I recommend the motormen be given a powerful loudspeaker, which would be noisy but would generate some good theater.

[clubboss]

These photos are all from San Diego - a city that has had trolleys since the 80's
Vehicles vs. trolley
Bicycles vs. trolley
Pedestrians vs. trolley
It happens frequently

Attachment 33398

[Tig3rzhark]

These photos are all from San Diego - a city that has had trolleys since the 80's
Vehicles vs. trolley
Bicycles vs. trolley
Pedestrians vs. trolley
It happens frequently



Attachment 33398

This isn't anything new to Detroit. We had a streetcar system before the Q-Line so it shouldn't be surprising. No it doesn't excuse these incidents, but these incidents can be prevented, if drivers will just follow the law, if street signals would give these trains signal priority, and if the penalties for failing to follow were severely enforced, then these incidents should be minimal.

The streetcar would run faster if the signals along Woodward would give both the trains and buses, signal priority. Similar to BRT, buses would actually make it to their destinations on time if signal priority was given along both DDOT, SMART and RTA associated routes.

[mtburb]

I tried it out back on Monday, starting out at Congress Street heading north. The train was packed to the brim at first and it wasn't until around Warren that I was able to get a seat. Everyone including me had to get off at Grand Boulevard and then wait a while before the same train turned back downtown.

I believe a number of out-of-towners got on at Baltimore Street heading south as I noticed a Pontiac-bound Amtrak stop and go at the station there from several blocks away at Grand Boulevard. Stopping at Amsterdam Street everyone noticed Ryan Ermanni from Fox 2 filiming a report on the Q-Line's opening weekend success. Again, it had become standing-room-only once we arrived back at Congress Street.

At one point heading south in central midtown our train was actually flying fast! It actually otherwise obeyed with traffic lights along the route.

And referring to an earlier post, I didn't see any Reflex buses stopping at Q-Line stations during my rides.

[professorscott]

And referring to an earlier post, I didn't see any Reflex buses stopping at Q-Line stations during my rides.

Reflex is limited-stop, and certainly doesn't make thirteen stops between midtown and downtown. I believe there are two stops which are a short walk from a QLine station. I haven't been down there yet to see it, so anyone who has, feel free to elaborate [[or correct).

[Gsgeorge]

Ok, I've taken the QLine about 10 times since opening. I have also connected to it from the 34 Gratiot and 31 Mack busses.

I believe the system will go a long way in introducing Metro and Suburban Detroiters to using transit. I saw a lot of "suburban" faces on the QLine compared with the 31 and 34. There were also some everyday commuters on there who didn't seem to be using it as a novelty. One woman told me that while the bus is a bit faster, the Q Line is a lot more comfortable and clean. And I will say the rowdy crowd of teenagers on the 31 definitely did not make it seem very inviting. Maybe once people are introduced to the idea of using transit, they will take a chance with some bus routes too.

Some negatives, since we all get to complain about nice things:
- The station spacing seems short-sighted at best, idiotic at worst. Why are there several stops only a couple of blocks from each other? Was it really necessary to have a Grand Blvd, Baltimore, and Amsterdam stop? These stops are literally within 1 minute walking distance of each other. Sproat/Adelaide, Montcalm, AND Grand Circus? Again, within one or two minutes of walking distance to each other. Seems very silly.
- The train stopping around the Sproat/Adelaide station to charge up is totally ridiculous. You literally sit at a green light for 2-3 minutes while the traffic and busses whizz by. I can easily see this being a huge detriment to people using the system. It's already slow and sluggish through downtown traffic, let alone the frequent stops between Congress and Sproat.
- Having the tracks in the parking lane southbound is going to be a nightmare. Again, I don't work in transit or urban planning, but this seems extraordinarily bungled. We had to stop several times for illegally parked vehicles. Sure, drivers will get used to it, but why build the tracks at different placements on each side of the road. Real shame they did not go with center-running tracks. That was extraordinarily stupid. The minutes added could make the difference between people using the system, and it being the butt end of a People Mover joke.
- I usually used the app to catch the train close to when it was arriving, so I did not have much of an issue waiting for trains. Travel time, once on the train, varied greatly. I want to say we did Congress to Ferry in 18 or 20 minutes on one run, while another ride going southbound from the Ferry stop took 28-30 minutes.
- I have heard of ambulances and delivery trucks blocking the tracks. I did not see this myself but have seen videos on Facebook of a train stuck LITERALLY 100 feet from the Congress station, behind a parked ambulance, and had to let everyone off in the road. This could've been easily solved if there was a loop of tracks around Campus Martius, so they train could've just turned around back to the CM stop. Instead it had to wait for the ambulance to move, and pull into the Congress station, before heading northbound.
- Carmen Harlan was glitching out like a bad robot. The upcoming station names on the ticker were consistently incorrect, the voice sometimes did not match the station name, the announcements for upcoming stations were almost never correct [[maybe 10% of the time over the 10 rides I was on) and most of the time were not working or on at all.

Overall these little issues will hopefully be sussed out as time goes on and the system is more frequently used. Some of the choices do seem silly though. I am only worried because this was one of our big shots to prove a point about transit being an effective alternative mode of transportation in the region. This really could've been a great proof of concept and a great way to introduce people in the region to future rail / rapid transit. However these small slow downs, travel times, ill-conceived track and station placement, may instead make the train be perceived as "yet another People Mover" in the eyes of the uninformed.

OH, also, they should be expanding this thing ASAP. Despite the issues, it needs to go to Belle Isle, maybe a bit further up Woodward. A michigan or Gratiot line would be great too. The sooner we can expand this system the better. I do not believe it should go to the suburbs. The QLine should be part of an inner-city streetcar system, complemented by BRT or a rapid transit to the suburbs.

[emu steve]

"The QLine should be part of an inner-city streetcar system, complemented by BRT or a rapid transit to the suburbs."

I absolutely agree.

Streetcars are best utilized for people traveling short distances, frequent stops in densely populated [[i.e., lot of something like establishments, housing units, etc.) areas.

I would think a line running down Jefferson could have stops spaced out a little more.

The existing QLine is designed to stop at virtually every 'destination.' I don't think there are many true destinations along Jefferson [[like Woodward).

[Gsgeorge]

Reflex is limited-stop, and certainly doesn't make thirteen stops between midtown and downtown. I believe there are two stops which are a short walk from a QLine station. I haven't been down there yet to see it, so anyone who has, feel free to elaborate [[or correct).

There are five Reflex stops along the QLine. They are: downtown at Farmer & Monroe [[where you can also pick up the Gratiot Reflex), Grand Circus, Mack, Warren, and Milwaukee.

"The QLine should be part of an inner-city streetcar system, complemented by BRT or a rapid transit to the suburbs."

I absolutely agree.

Streetcars are best utilized for people traveling short distances, frequent stops in densely populated [[i.e., lot of something like establishments, housing units, etc.) areas.

I would think a line running down Jefferson could have stops spaced out a little more.

The existing QLine is designed to stop at virtually every 'destination.' I don't think there are many true destinations along Jefferson [[like Woodward).

I see stops along Jefferson at Renaissance Center, Orleans, Joseph Campau, Mt. Elliot, Belle Isle/Grand Blvd, Van Dyke at least.

Gratiot should have stops at Beaubien, St. Antoine, Russel, St. Aubin, Chene, McDougall, Mack, Mt. Elliot, Grand Blvd.

In the future a Grand Blvd loop can be done even connecting to Hamtramck or Corktown/Michigan Ave.

[emu steve]

Freep article on the early ridership numbers, cars, more free rides, etc.

"According to M-1 Rail, which operates and built the streetcar, QLINE had nearly 50,000 riders its first week, averaging 8,300 riders per day over its first weekend and 5,120 riders from Monday through Thursday.

M-1 Rail plans to increase the number of streetcars on the route during heavy ridership periods."

That has got to be good, good news!!

I do not believe that 'free' is the fly in the ointment. The cost of QLine isn't a deal breaker. Three bucks / day isn't going to scare riders off.

For someone living along the "Woodward Corridor" paying $30 / month for unlimited access is the bargain of a lifetime. For example, someone living in Midtown and working downtown, a ride to work for 50 cents is incredible.

And, I don't believe we've hit peak ridership yet. How about a Monday night football game following a work day? Or for the fireworks? Thanksgiving? or any Lions home game?

I suspect if the system had say 8 or 10 cars, that on these days, the system probably could do 12 - 15K on those very heavy volume days.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2017...ree/333064001/

[ndavies]

The Qline will be useless on fireworks night. It will be stuck in the sea of break lights leaving downtown. Every road out of downtown becomes a parking lot. It will get you there, but there's no way to get back.

The Qline will probably be down on Thanksgiving due to the parade. I can't imagine they will they will leave the Qline powered while you have balloon handlers and oversized vehicles moving down the street. Balloons and overhead exposed wires do not go well together. Woodward avenue is usually shut down completely with the traffic lights removed from Wednesday night until Friday morning.

[dtowncitylover]

I mean for most these issues, don't we just have to go back 70 years and see what they did? Perhaps the streetcar will not be in operation untill noon on Thanksgiving. Also, the overhead wires are now on either side of the street, which could make the route easier to navigate. As opposed to our original streetcars which were right in the middle. The fireworks have been around since '59, three years after the last streetcar but I'm not sure why crowds would matter since those crowds hop right on the expressways.