QLine going public

[MicrosoftFan]

Today DSR tomorrow the SUBWAY!

Detroit's Needs a SUBWAY!!

I would love a $2 gas to pay for a $20 Billion+ subway system... and that's just one line!

In all seriousness, the Q Line actually kept up with traffic. Very fast and smooth, but the cars are a little narrow. Also, on Campus Martius someone almost got hit trying to go from the left lane to the right lane and crossing in front of the center lane Q Line.

I timed the ride from Congress to Grand around 3:30 PM. Took 30 minutes, flat, and that was hitting every light.

Grand Blvd Station was full, and then another streetcar droppped off its load. Very crammed and I was afraid someone would fall into the trackway.

Signal Priority is a must in the future. And also, do Reflex busses stop at Q Line stations? I swore I saw one stop.

[professorscott]

I hope all of the QLine people drank lots of champagne yesterday.

I wonder how many of the ones who worked on it recently were around when it got started a decade ago.

Red wine, actually, Jason; I'm not much for champagne.

Most of the people who were at the table in 2007 were around for the festivities yesterday. I'm in Washington DC now and wasn't able to make it, but I get to Detroit every now and then, and I'll be sure to check it out when I'm there. I was very pleased to see the folks from the Kresge Foundation; it is no exaggeration to say that it could not have been done without them. Roger Penske was in on this almost from the very beginning. The Federal Transit Administration has remarked, to me and others, about the astonishing and unprecedented amount of private-sector contribution to this system. It was wonderful to be able to do it that way, since given the recent history, the Detroit municipal bankruptcy, failure of the RTA millage and so on, there really wasn't any other way to do it.

I don't know if John Hertel was able to make it or not, but it's a shame if he didn't. In the final analysis, this was his idea, and I do not think he has got the proper credit. When I say "this" was his idea, I mean the concept of a Woodward streetcar, and where it starts and stops, and how it was funded. Without him, even more than the Kresge Foundation, there is absolutely no chance that yesterday's events would have transpired.

[ABetterDetroit]

This baby is one smooooth ride. Starts and stops were really comfortable with the 2 different operators that took the controls while I was onboard today. I didn't time anything but it moved along nicely between stops. The car change at Grand Blvd. needs some work in timing but some learning curve is understandable.

The question that I would like to ask the Professor is would the system as it exists now support more trains than 6 or is that number designed in as the maximum with this length of track?

[professorscott]

This baby is one smooooth ride. Starts and stops were really comfortable with the 2 different operators that took the controls while I was onboard today. I didn't time anything but it moved along nicely between stops. The car change at Grand Blvd. needs some work in timing but some learning curve is understandable.

The question that I would like to ask the Professor is would the system as it exists now support more trains than 6 or is that number designed in as the maximum with this length of track?

Hi, Better, the system as built can support way, way more than six trains. The original Woodward streetcar ran for many years with one-minute headways. I am not making that up or exaggerating; a streetcar came, in each direction, every minute. If we assume it takes about 45 minutes to make a round trip with the current track configuration, that means you can have 45 trains on the ground at once; we did it before.

The only thing they would have to add is layover track at one end, more juice into the overhead wires, and perhaps figure out how to recharge the batteries faster, and of course the existing storage facility won't accommodate 45 vehicles. So the limitations are all in the periphery, not the track itself.

[detroitbob]

... the QLine will not be fast like a subway system, is best for those who wish to travel up to 3 miles en lieu of driving/parking. It is essentially for convenience and cost [[cheaper to pay the QLine fare than pay downtown parking).

EMU Steve, upon reviewing all the many comments made during the grand opening celebration events on Friday extensions were alluded to, of course with no backup information but it is safe to say that the powers involved surely have discussed this. Detroiters have to understand the century-old motto now applies to Detroit "Make no little plans" ---Daniel Hudson Burnham, American architect and urban planners responsible for the plans that made Chicago the metropolis it is today. Streetcar extensions make sense perhaps a spur extending to Henry Ford Medical Center and its new complex, perhaps Greektown. E Jefferson makes sense as does Michigan Ave. thru what is being billed as "West Corktown".

[wolverine]

I would love a $2 gas to pay for a $20 Billion+ subway system... and that's just one line!

In all seriousness, the Q Line actually kept up with traffic. Very fast and smooth, but the cars are a little narrow. Also, on Campus Martius someone almost got hit trying to go from the left lane to the right lane and crossing in front of the center lane Q Line.

I timed the ride from Congress to Grand around 3:30 PM. Took 30 minutes, flat, and that was hitting every light.

Grand Blvd Station was full, and then another streetcar droppped off its load. Very crammed and I was afraid someone would fall into the trackway.

Signal Priority is a must in the future. And also, do Reflex busses stop at Q Line stations? I swore I saw one stop.

There is leading signals installed already correct? These are pretty standard now in BRT and LRT, the symbol is a vertical white bar on the stoplight.

[ABetterDetroit]

Hi, Better, the system as built can support way, way more than six trains. The original Woodward streetcar ran for many years with one-minute headways. I am not making that up or exaggerating; a streetcar came, in each direction, every minute. If we assume it takes about 45 minutes to make a round trip with the current track configuration, that means you can have 45 trains on the ground at once; we did it before.

The only thing they would have to add is layover track at one end, more juice into the overhead wires, and perhaps figure out how to recharge the batteries faster, and of course the existing storage facility won't accommodate 45 vehicles. So the limitations are all in the periphery, not the track itself.

Good problems to have; the kind than can be fixed. I'm not going to proclaim it yet, but those cars where packed. Of course it was opening weekend so riders should subside after a few weeks but the possibility is that they will need more of those cars and it could be sooner than latter.

[emu steve]

Hi, Better, the system as built can support way, way more than six trains. The original Woodward streetcar ran for many years with one-minute headways. I am not making that up or exaggerating; a streetcar came, in each direction, every minute. If we assume it takes about 45 minutes to make a round trip with the current track configuration, that means you can have 45 trains on the ground at once; we did it before.

The only thing they would have to add is layover track at one end, more juice into the overhead wires, and perhaps figure out how to recharge the batteries faster, and of course the existing storage facility won't accommodate 45 vehicles. So the limitations are all in the periphery, not the track itself.

For the sake of simplicity, is recharging the batteries the 'bottleneck' in the system?

If QLine had 10 cars and wanted all operational at once for peak travel, could all get recharged or would there be a bottleneck at the recharging station?

Would 10 cars = 6 minutes headways [[assuming 60 minute, not 45 minute, loop)? If so, that would equal what D.C. area folks get with their rush hour service on the subway.

BTW, are the cars still red or was only one ceremonial car painted designer colors?
[[I liked the red and red is a very visible color).

[emu steve]

EMU Steve, upon reviewing all the many comments made during the grand opening celebration events on Friday extensions were alluded to, of course with no backup information but it is safe to say that the powers involved surely have discussed this. Detroiters have to understand the century-old motto now applies to Detroit "Make no little plans" ---Daniel Hudson Burnham, American architect and urban planners responsible for the plans that made Chicago the metropolis it is today. Streetcar extensions make sense perhaps a spur extending to Henry Ford Medical Center and its new complex, perhaps Greektown. E Jefferson makes sense as does Michigan Ave. thru what is being billed as "West Corktown".

I agree.

My thought in a nutshell: Streetcars are neat but expensive, and good for short haul trips [[say < 4 or 5 miles max) only. E. Jefferson could have stops every 0.4 or 0.5 miles.

With that in mind, all of the routes Bob and I mention are candidates for streetcar lines.

That said, don't want to go 'streetcar happy' and try to run 40 - 50 miles of streetcars. How about a max of 20 miles?

Streetcars are best in very densely populated/traffic area [[like CBD), near sports facilities, etc. I would think E. Jefferson could become densely populated.

One side note: I bet the QLine will be popular with tourists who want to see Detroit's core without driving. I bet conventioneers might be tempted to take the 6.6 mile loop and see downtown/midtown/New Center. Maybe stop at Mack and get some snacks, etc. at Whole Foods [[yummy deserts )

[emu steve]

Couple of thoughts for today:

1). Yes a lot of free riders and curiosity seekers this weekend. Free rides makes sense for a week to avoid confusion and hassles early on with fare boxes.

2). What will rush hour be like today or tomorrow?

3). What will 6 - 7 p.m. be like tomorrow for the Tigers' game?

We should get our first clues as to journey to work traffic and usage to attend events at Comerica/Ford Field/LCA.

[professorscott]

For the sake of simplicity, is recharging the batteries the 'bottleneck' in the system?

If QLine had 10 cars and wanted all operational at once for peak travel, could all get recharged or would there be a bottleneck at the recharging station?

The recharging appears to be, as the thing is currently set up, the limiting factor. If you wanted 10 cars in operation the simplest thing to do is own 12 or 13, and dispatch cars out of the maintenance facility in order to control the bottleneck. Once the opening-weekend crowds reduce to a normal load, the recharging won't take as long as it is right now.

Would 10 cars = 6 minutes headways [[assuming 60 minute, not 45 minute, loop)? If so, that would equal what D.C. area folks get with their rush hour service on the subway.

Yep. At that point you'd want a line supervisor out there to control bunching. You would want one car every six minutes or so, not three cars in a row every 18 minutes, which, without supervision, is what you'd end up with.

BTW, are the cars still red or was only one ceremonial car painted designer colors? [[I liked the red and red is a very visible color).

That one I don't know. We will have to wait and see.

[dtowncitylover]

Here are my thoughts because everyone is so interested in knowing...

I went down on Friday evening and of course it was jam-packed but it was fun. Obviously it seems no one is used to transit systems because the usual jerk motion was made every time it started to move and everyone had to comment on it every time it happened.

I'm sure the crowds didn't make the headways great this weekend but going back to where my group parked in the New Center from Canfield took nearly 30 minutes, 20 of it was waiting on the streetcar. However, I've never seen as many people walking down Woodward between Selden and Canfield as I did Friday. Maybe there's some crowds, I'm usually never down there then, but it seemed amazing to me.

And yeah people did not get off. We got on at Baltimore and we saw what would become our streetcar going northbound. It ended at Grand Boulevard, people got off, went to charge and driver change sides, then all those people got right back on. I mean, c'mon people! Ride it a couple stops get off move to the other side and catch an opposite side one.

I'm looking forward to Wednesday. Going to the Tigs game will probably park somewhere north and take it down. That way I won't deal with downtown traffic and it's still free! Until next Monday...

[dtowncitylover]

That one I do't know. We will have to wait and see.

As far as I could tell, they were all still designed ceremonially. I'm sure the red will be used by next Monday when things quiet down. Right now it's the honeymoon phase.

[emu steve]

Good luck Dtnlover with the Tigers game. I'll be doing it late June.

As to my experience with utilization on the D.C. subway in the D.C. core [["downtown").

I'd estimate that utilization ratio during rush hours [[e.g., 5:00 p.m. weekdays is say 3x utilization at 1:00 p.m. weekdays).

I'd estimate utilization is 150% of seating capacity [[that basically means all seats are taken and standing areas are pretty full or completely full).

During non-rush hours I'd guess say 50% capacity is a good benchmark.

Based on that, I'd guess that 3 or 4 cars from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. weekdays might work well.

The big question is whether or not doubling capacity at rush hour or for special events will be sufficient?

There will never ever be enough cars for say the fireworks where parking uptown and QLining downtown would seem like a perfect way to go.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Re the headway times issue, you can track the cars' progress on your phone so you only have to walk to the platform right before the car gets there, same way you'd do with a bus. Not that big of a deal if you're moderately tech-savvy.

[Scottathew]

Signal Priority is a must in the future.

I agree 100%. Optimize for transit, the car does not have to be king.

[Atticus]

I am still going to argue that the most important factor of whether the Q line becomes a success or not is... headway times. The headways have to get down into the 15 minute range during most normal hours. If they don't, middle to higher income people will just opt for Uber instead. Then the Q line becomes the transit system for the low income folks, which leads to the system getting a bad stigma attached to it, which leads to people not wanting to ride it [[kinda like the old bus argument).

Shaving a few minutes off the travel time is great, but in truth psychologically people don't care that much about a few extra minutes once they are on board. However if they have to stand in 15 degree temperatures waiting outside for 20-25 minutes, you can bet they will take something else next time if they can afford it. If it runs at least every 15 minutes though, most income groups will use it in normal circumstances... that is the key.

[Atticus]

Re the headway times issue, you can track the cars' progress on your phone so you only have to walk to the platform right before the car gets there, same way you'd do with a bus. Not that big of a deal if you're moderately tech-savvy.

Yes, but a middle-to-higher income person tends to value their time a lot more than a few $$. So if the options are: 1) sit around inside for 15 more minutes, and then spend 5 min walking to the station to get there when the train arrives, or 2) pay $5 more to take the Uber 5 minutes from now... the Uber wins every time to the mid/higher income people. That is why the headways have to get to at least the 15min range. Yes, knowing when the train arrives is great, but that still doesn't save you the time lost.

[emu steve]

I am still going to argue that the most important factor of whether the Q line becomes a success or not is... headway times. The headways have to get down into the 15 minute range during most normal hours. If they don't, middle to higher income people will just opt for Uber instead. Then the Q line becomes the transit system for the low income folks, which leads to the system getting a bad stigma attached to it, which leads to people not wanting to ride it [[kinda like the old bus argument).

Shaving a few minutes off the travel time is great, but in truth psychologically people don't care that much about a few extra minutes once they are on board. However if they have to stand in 15 degree temperatures waiting outside for 20-25 minutes, you can bet they will take something else next time if they can afford it. If it runs at least every 15 minutes though, most income groups will use it in normal circumstances... that is the key.

Agree. Waiting 15 minutes in 15 degree temps is a non-starter for those who have a choice.

That is one reason why ridership will probably fall significantly during the heart of winter or heavy rains, etc.

[detroitbob]

Agree. Waiting 15 minutes in 15 degree temps is a non-starter for those who have a choice.

EMU Steve, We have to remember downtown Detroit had no alternatives other than [[now) somewhat improved bus service and taxi. I have regularly waited 10-15 minutes on a windy and freezing EL Platforms in Chicago's Loop during off-peak hours. It's part of the outdoor transit "experience". A walk to and from apartment to a parking lot and walking to and from parking to destination equals insignificant time differences to and from the QLine. If anything I expect to see fewer people walking from Mack south to the "Foxtown"/GCP inbound and outbound in the bleak midwinter and instead switching to the QLine. I would have liked to see an intermediate stop between Sproat Street and Mack Ave as that area is looking like the center point between the Arena district and Orchestra Place.

[Atticus]

EMU Steve, We have to remember downtown Detroit had no alternatives other than [[now) somewhat improved bus service and taxi. I have regularly waited 10-15 minutes on a windy and freezing EL Platforms in Chicago's Loop during off-peak hours. It's part of the outdoor transit "experience". A walk to and from apartment to a parking lot and walking to and from parking to destination equals insignificant time differences to and from the QLine. If anything I expect to see fewer people walking from Mack south to the "Foxtown"/GCP inbound and outbound in the bleak midwinter and instead switching to the QLine. I would have liked to see an intermediate stop between Sproat Street and Mack Ave as that area is looking like the center point between the Arena district and Orchestra Place.

Again though, it is a time thing. 10-15 min is okay [[not fun, but okay) even in 15 degree weather. For middle/upper income people, 25 minutes is not okay even in 70 degree weather, because time is lost.

Imagine a resident in the David Whitney Bldg who goes to a show at the Max. The show gets out, and it is a comfortable 60 degrees outside. They can stand on the platform and wait 20 min for QLine, or pay $4 more and wait 5 minutes to ride Uber.

It is not the temperature... [[and yes waiting any amount of time in 15 degrees weather will suck), but it is the time lost. Get the headways down.

[Hermod]

'Yep. At that point you'd want a line supervisor out there to control bunching. You would want one car every six minutes or so, not three cars in a row every 18 minutes, which, without supervision, is what you'd end up with.

Interesting book on this peculiarity called "Why Do Buses Come in Threes: The Hidden Mathematics of Everyday Life" by Rob Eastaway and Jeremy Wyndham
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[Hermod]

Again though, it is a time thing. 10-15 min is okay [[not fun, but okay) even in 15 degree weather. For middle/upper income people, 25 minutes is not okay even in 70 degree weather, because time is lost.

Imagine a resident in the David Whitney Bldg who goes to a show at the Max. The show gets out, and it is a comfortable 60 degrees outside. They can stand on the platform and wait 20 min for QLine, or pay $4 more and wait 5 minutes to ride Uber.

It is not the temperature... [[and yes waiting any amount of time in 15 degrees weather will suck), but it is the time lost. Get the headways down.

Yes, Detroiters need a heated shelter at every stop.

[emu steve]

I'm curious how the ridership numbers will shake out.

My guess:

1K morning rush. 1K evening rush. 1.5K during the other non-rush hours.

And I'd toss in an average of 1K [[additional) for sporting events and other special events.

This would get QLine close to its hoped for ridership.

I'd guess that if they had 2x the capacity that it wouldn't be enough for things like the fireworks next month, the Thanksgiving Day parade, maybe Lions games, etc.

There are certain events where I'd guess drivers would love to park a mile away and QLine to the venue...

[professorscott]

Interesting book on this peculiarity called "Why Do Buses Come in Threes: The Hidden Mathematics of Everyday Life" by Rob Eastaway and Jeremy Wyndham

Yep, and it's simple enough to give an example of how this gets started. Basic chaos theory. Suppose people are randomly showing up at bus stops for a bus that comes every 10 minutes, and somehow bus #1 finds itself 4 minutes behind schedule. [[Bad luck at stop lights, accident ahead of it, people fumbling for money to pay the fare, unexpected large group gets on, whatever.)

Now, it finds itself picking up 40% more people than it ought to be normally: the people who showed up for it, and the people who showed up a bit early for bus #2, but since bus #1 is there, they sure as hell are going to get on it. So, because more boarding increases dwell time, bus #1 gets further and further behind; now it is 8 minutes down and picking up 80% more passengers than usual.

Meanwhile, bus #2 was picking up 60% of its normal load and is now barely picking up anyone, so naturally it eventually catches up to bus #1.

With supervision, this is easy to fix: at some point, tell bus #1 to put itself out of service, change its head-sign, and stop picking people up. Without supervision, it is inevitable and will happen more often than not.