QLine going public

[Danny]

YAY!!!! The People Mover 2 Just like Robocop 2. Loyal as a puppy.

[professorscott]

If QLine can do 15 minutes on average then it would meet my expectations as it means someone entering the station would expect to wait on average 7 - 8 minutes [[range 0 - 15 minutes - half the time < 7.5 minutes and half the time > 7.5 minutes).

Let me clear up the confusion about this, first with a quote from a recent Free Press article, then my interpretation of it.

From the Freep: "Peak headway times [[the intervals between trains) are expected to be 20-25 minutes initially but should improve to 15 minutes as more streetcars are put into regular service."

My interpretation of it is that they do not have all of the streetcars ready for prime time yet, so will be opening up with three units running at any given time, and hopefully soon will be up to full strength. I can't guarantee it, but that's what I think it means.

[clubboss]

Ride free till Monday, perhaps their will be a christening - Melania and a bottle of Dom

[emu steve]

EXCellent article on streetcar which address a lot of things we've discussed:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ars/101582618/

Couple of highlights:

But the streetcar trend is accelerating — for now. The Motor City is among five cities since 2016 to have debuted their streetcar services.

Various cities report an average of 10 accidents a month in the first three months of service, including the occasional fatal wreck.

The number of people who will ride the QLine may be hard to predict. Most cities wrongly forecast ridership. At least six cities overestimated while at least three underestimated. Cold months can chill ridership numbers and big events such as concerts or sporting events tend to clog the line.

QLine streetcars are three-piece, articulated cars that are expected to carry an average of 125 passengers per car. Four cars will operate at most times. At peak hours and during special events, QLine officials say they will activate more cars.

Nevertheless, the excitement is real among many business owners and others along the QLine, and in most cities, investment increases once the streetcars go online.

Most cities want their streetcar lines to expand. Despite the glitches and the entrenched critics, at least six cities have already expanded their initial streetcar lines. QLine officials and boosters already are advocating the time is now to plan to keep the streetcar line growing.

“We hope over time it will expand north along Woodward,” Cullen said. “And in the next 10 years, there may be a couple of new lines possibly along Jefferson or Gratiot.”

***********

MY COMMENT:

For those who thought that streetcars in Detroit would be People Mover II, I think they are going to be 100% wrong.

The analogies are not to People Mover but street cars in other cities. Well designed street car systems are proving successful. Not People Mover II.

I have previously suggested that Detroit's has a much better than average chance to be highly successful because of the density of assets along the 3.3M 'Wooward Corridor.".

Looking ahead 5 - 10 years, the big thing isn't QLine today, but will mistakes be made expanding the system. Would expanding it to 8 mile degrade the system [[e.g., too many riders, too few cars? Will everyone get on at 8 mile and the cars will be full before it gets to New Center, Midtown, downtown?).

Looking ahead to the next 6 months: I think the biggest problem will be capacity for sporting events. Six cars is 750 riders / hour and I'd think that capacity is about 1/3 of what would be needed.

Believe me, I know what it is like to be at Nationals Park or Verizon Center when a sporting event lets out... [[or trying to get to those venues).

[467riverfix]

Full disclosure: I'm Caucasian myself

So, does it make it any less racist?

[467riverfix]

I certainly like the idea of the QLine. But I still have some difficulty trying to imagine how it will be used. For Midtown Yuppies going to work at Quicken Loans? For Midtowners going to lunch in the CBD or more likely vice-versa, similar to how people now use the People Mover? This would seem to work for sports fans shuttling along Woodward to Little Caesars and Comerica. But then, wouldn't most of these people simply being parking their cars nearby, and if using QLine, again, similar to how People Mover used?

[professorscott]

I certainly like the idea of the QLine. But I still have some difficulty trying to imagine how it will be used. For Midtown Yuppies going to work at Quicken Loans? For Midtowners going to lunch in the CBD or more likely vice-versa, similar to how people now use the People Mover? This would seem to work for sports fans shuttling along Woodward to Little Caesars and Comerica. But then, wouldn't most of these people simply being parking their cars nearby, and if using QLine, again, similar to how People Mover used?

There are several groups of people who I imagine might use it. First and most obviously, people who live or work along the corridor, and that number has been increasing for a while. Second, people who are going to midtown or downtown for whatever reason and by whatever means [[bus, car, taxi, Uber) and might want to visit more than one place. Especially if you drive - parking is expensive, and re-parking is even more expensive. Third, Wayne State kids - who might be happy to take any transit whatever, but the DDOT Woodward bus is frequently SRO going south by the time it gets to WSU, people don't realize the Dexter bus will take them near a lot of the same places, and SMART buses don't pick up southbound and never have. Fourth, and I hope this takes off and is successful, people who live or work along the new DDOT Mid-City Loop bus, which extends the reach of the streetcar in three directions.

The big contrast with the PeopleMover is that QLine actually goes to a lot of places people might actually want to get to. The PeopleMover has several stations that are kind of in the middle of the woods, if you know what I mean by that.

[Tig3rzhark]

All right. As I speak over at the Detroit Water Ice Factory. I took the q line from Grand Boulevard there.

The train was literally Standing Room. Which is one of the reasons why I got off at campus Meritus.
I will write more on this experience later.

[Tig3rzhark]

I managed to do a Facebook Live video on my personal experience. This day was very eventful.

https://www.facebook.com/Tig3rzhark/...5415250803629/

[Tig3rzhark]

I would like to also say that as a result of my ride today. I would personally say that it is at this point for both the city and suburbs to come together to make our city the Paris of the Midwest once again.

The suburbs have to know that by isolating themselves from the world, that it time it will be left behind, like the closed malls around them.

The city will have to remember that it will take more than just a great downtown to revive itself. Neighborhoods much be encouraged to welcome people of all colors while at the same time, encouraging enconomic propersity to circulate along all colors.

This city will only prosper, if we are known for more than just cars. This city will only prosper, if we are known as a city that encourages alternative means of getting around.

[Meddle]

Eventually Detroit transit police will be checking passengers to ensure they've paid, QLine officials said.

Sorry Ma'am, we can help you with the guys that beat and robbed you, we're checking tickets on the cute lil' thing.

[KJ5]

So, does it make it any less racist?

No, but I just as easily could have went classist with it. This new Q-Line is an expensive toy for the well-to-do.

[jackie5275]

The train was literally Standing Room.

Of course, it was. The fare is free for now. It was the same way when the People Mover opened. We'll see how crowded it is in a week when folks have to pay. Right now, people are checking out the hot, new thing for free.

[emu steve]

The only reason to ever extend the Q-Line will be to replace the D-DOT Woodward bus. Also, I am hoping that after all of the problems it will face on the southbound side, that it will be revamped and placed in the second lane like it is on the northbound side, returning all of those lost on-street parking spaces. In addition, if it doesn't replace the D-DOT bus, then any extension needs to go along Grand Boulevard heading up to the Motown Museum.

At its present incarnation, the Q-Line is nothing more than a smoother-riding means of transportation for tourists and the those wanting to get from Midtown to Downtown and vice versa. People coming in to see a ball game at any of the stadia are not taking the Q-Line unless they live along its route. Despite all of my apprehensions, I am looking forward to using it when it comes on line.

Royce, I think this remains to be seen.

A one-day example:

Last Thanksgiving day I came to see the end of the parade and the Lions' football game.

I parked in the lot opposite Masonic Temple and walked I'd guess almost a mile. I did not want to drive ANYWHERE near the parade.

I'd been glad to take the nearest QLine stop [[Sproat) to Grand Circus.

I'm guessing when I come to a Tigers' game the end of June that I'll park near WSU or park again next the Masonic and take QLine to Montcalm or Grand Circus.

There seems to be a chance to save a few bucks and maybe say a 1/3 to almost 1/2 mile walking distance.

P.S. I'm curious how the Thanksgiving Day parade 2017 will work? Can they run the QLine and have the parade without problems?

[Zacha341]

Well self-deprecation [[especially as expressed in comedy) seems to be hip and popular in some settings...... I don't feed into it much.

If someone white does that around me alot I usually fall silent and or change the subject. Especially as I am NOT about to trade-off self-deprecation. Hah!

Who needs to advance stereotypes?

So, does it make it any less racist?

Full disclosure: I'm Caucasian myself

I can't wait to ride the Woodward bus, watch it leave the Qline in the dust and listen to the other passengers laugh at how stupid white people are.

[Zacha341]

I'm curious about that sudden narrowing of Woodward north, right before Baltimore, under the rail road tracks? There's a huge four ft. wall built up in the area under the tracks and the narrowing is fast and Q-line track lines veer off right there. Imagine that during rush hour? It's already a busy area with CCS Taubman center on Baltimore west.

That concrete wall is pristine now, but I can see the car paint scrapings if people are not careful. No less full out side-swipes. I think more signage will be needed to indicate that the right lane ends quickly!!!

[EastsideAl]

Rode the thing last night after my long workday was done. Even at 9 PM it was strictly SRO. Went to the top of the line at Grand Blvd. to catch it and the platform was JAMMED.

Everyone curious and excited and in good spirits, except for one lady who kept complaining that "they threw me off the train here". The explanation that it's the end of the line didn't seem to satisfy her. In fact though there were a lot of people there who didn't seem to be experienced riders of public transportation, which is a good thing overall, but did seem to result in a lot of confusion and an annoying inability to get out of the way when people were getting off or on the cars.

The train itself is very smooth. I had no trouble standing up steadily in the middle with no hand holds for support, even when it took the slight turn to the curb lane. It's also almost unnervingly quiet, sort of like the first time you drive a hybrid car [[for anyone who has had that experience). The steps up at each end [[to clear the wheels) to where most of the seating is seemed to mess some people up, and I saw a couple of people trip on them.

One thing I'm hoping they correct quickly is the lack of announcements for the stops [[something almost all systems automate these days). That, along with the smoked glass that made it difficult to see out after dark, created some confusion and almost caused me [[along with people not getting out of the damn way) to miss my stop at Warren.

A limitation of the non-overhead wires system that I didn't realize, which was explained to me by one of the workers, is that the cars have to take 10 minutes to recharge at the end of the line. That can create some stacking and scheduling problems when, as happened last night, a very full car runs behind schedule, and a less full car behind it comes in a little ahead of schedule. It would also seem to really adversely affect headway adjustments and scheduling flexibility for special events with big crowds, like games or concerts. Of course, there's also the fact that crowds waiting on a platform in the wind and cold tend to get a bit antsy when they can see a car sitting there empty, but have to wait 10 minutes for it to come to them.

All in all though this was a great, fun, celebratory ride. A very nice modern addition to our otherwise horrendously outmoded transit system, and hopefully a harbinger of better things to come. While ridership will certainly vary quite a bit, I don't think the thing is going to fall flat on its face after they start charging people to use it. As long as they can make it easy to use in terms of paying the fare and riding with minimum hassles, and keep it running smoothly without major interruptions, I think it'll work out just fine.

[jackie5275]

I'm curious about that sudden narrowing of Woodward north, right before Baltimore, under the rail road tracks? There's a huge four ft. wall built up in the area under the tracks and the narrowing is fast and Q-line track lines veer off right there. Imagine that during rush hour? It's already a busy area with CCS Taubman center on Baltimore west.

That concrete wall is pristine now, but I can see the car paint scrapings if people are not careful. No less full out side-swipes. I think more signage will be needed to indicate that the right lane ends quickly!!!

There is a lighted sign at that intersection that is to light up when the train is going through from the outside to inside lane that is to stop all other vehicles to let the train cross those lanes. It's supposed to be like an intermittent stop light.

[emu steve]

Al,

Excellent info in your post.

Yes, it will cause folks to groan waiting on the platform in the cold waiting for the battery to recharge.

I think this system, like all systems, will involve a learning curve. Folks will learn. See it all the time with tourists in the D.C. subway system.

And I agree there is a lot of curiosity yesterday, and free fares, but the fares are so cheap that folks will not be scared off by them. I think Detroit has a winner.

[stasu1213]

Royce, I think this remains to be seen.

A one-day example:

Last Thanksgiving day I came to see the end of the parade and the Lions' football game.

I parked in the lot opposite Masonic Temple and walked I'd guess almost a mile. I did not want to drive ANYWHERE near the parade.

I'd been glad to take the nearest QLine stop [[Sproat) to Grand Circus.

I'm guessing when I come to a Tigers' game the end of June that I'll park near WSU or park again next the Masonic and take QLine to Montcalm or Grand Circus.

There seems to be a chance to save a few bucks and maybe say a 1/3 to almost 1/2 mile walking distance.

P.S. I'm curious how the Thanksgiving Day parade 2017 will work? Can they run the QLine and have the parade without problems?

I am still going to park my car at Macomb Mall and jump onto the Reflex 590 Gratiot bus to a Tigers, Lions, Red Wings, or even a Pistons game. The Reflex bus runs up until 11:00 or so at night back and forth from the suburbs to the city. There is one the rides north on Woodward to Somerset Mall and back to downtown. Little fanfare were given of introduction of these two lines last summer. They are convenient especially when you don't want to pay for parking

[Jason]

I hope all of the QLine people drank lots of champagne yesterday.

I wonder how many of the ones who worked on it recently were around when it got started a decade ago.

[emu steve]

I am still going to park my car at Macomb Mall and jump onto the Reflex 590 Gratiot bus to a Tigers, Lions, Red Wings, or even a Pistons game. The Reflex bus runs up until 11:00 or so at night back and forth from the suburbs to the city. There is one the rides north on Woodward to Somerset Mall and back to downtown. Little fanfare were given of introduction of these two lines last summer. They are convenient especially when you don't want to pay for parking

Good points.

I assume most everyone looks for the fastest, cheapest, most convenient way to get from their start point to destination esp. for sporting events, etc.

Anything which avoids the congestion, etc. is a possible winner.

[Zacha341]

Ok, that may work. I'm going to avoid that area from this point on, substituting Cass, Brush and John R to get past West Grand Blvd and cut over west. It's going to be interesting!

There is a lighted sign at that intersection that is to light up when the train is going through from the outside to inside lane that is to stop all other vehicles to let the train cross those lanes. It's supposed to be like an intermittent stop light.

[Atticus]

The headway part still worries me. 20-25 minutes is too much. A midtown resident with average to upper income won't stand in the cold for 25 minutes for a streetcar to downtown. 15 minutes is doable, but 25 minutes is too much.

The reason this becomes problematic is because then the rider base shifts to lower income groups. And while I have no issues with lower income, there is a stigma that will become associated with the Q-Line if only lower income people are using it. And that worries me.

It is almost like a required business investment, in that you must spend more to run every 15 minutes to make the system functional, or you will lose your upper/middle income rider base... as they can and will look for other options.

[Danny]

I hop on the Q-line and it was crowded like the New York Subway! That's because its free. Wait til the free rides is over. Then the ridership decreases until the entertainment and sports kicks in.


Today DSR tomorrow the SUBWAY!

Detroit's Needs a SUBWAY!!