QLine going public

[ct_alum]

Belle Island????

I'll ride it just to hear Carmen Harlan's voice. I miss her.

[Sandhouse]

If they haven't done so already, the City Council will shortly approve a lengthy ordinance drafted by the Q Line's lawyers. It governs fare payment, conduct aboard the cars, and among other things, outlaws bicycle use of "the tracks" and requires cyclists and auto drivers to get out of the way of the streetcar upon a honk from its operator. Violation of the ordinance is a misdemeanor, with a $500 fine or 90 days. Enforcement can be by any security personnel designated by the Chief of Police.

I don't believe any of this conforms to the state Vehicle Code or the laws governing traffic violations [[which are civil offenses with fines strictly limited).

A private police force empowered to issue $500 tickets based on a vague ordinance -- why do I have a bad feeling about this?

The ordinance also prohibits pushing shopping carts aboard the streetcar, probably to discourage the homeless. Free advice: if you want to bring more stuff home from Whole Foods than you can carry, use a wheeled suitcase instead of your folding shopping cart.

[clubboss]

If they haven't done so already, the City Council will shortly approve a lengthy ordinance drafted by the Q Line's lawyers. It governs fare payment, conduct aboard the cars, and among other things, outlaws bicycle use of "the tracks" and requires cyclists and auto drivers to get out of the way of the streetcar upon a honk from its operator. Violation of the ordinance is a misdemeanor, with a $500 fine or 90 days. Enforcement can be by any security personnel designated by the Chief of Police.

I don't believe any of this conforms to the state Vehicle Code or the laws governing traffic violations [[which are civil offenses with fines strictly limited).

A private police force empowered to issue $500 tickets based on a vague ordinance -- why do I have a bad feeling about this?

The ordinance also prohibits pushing shopping carts aboard the streetcar, probably to discourage the homeless. Free advice: if you want to bring more stuff home from Whole Foods than you can carry, use a wheeled suitcase instead of your folding shopping cart.

I’ve been on trolleys when the transit police were asking for tickets or passes. I’ve seen some discretion applied when a passenger doesn’t have a ticket, they’ve been given the option of de-boarding at the next stop and purchasing a ticket – in the unlikely event they have the required fare – and being let go at that point. I have also observed no slack being cut, and the offending individual is taken off the trolley, cited, and released. Perhaps there will be a probationary period prior to any citations being issued. In San Diego, I witnessed the transit police chase an individual for several blocks – to cite, and release a rider w/ no ticket.

Define shopping cart, the little ones like I’ve shown, or, as in full-fledged – stolen – grocery store shopping cart from like Walmart or Kroger?

[eastland]

Relatively recently? Hey, Al, you must be my age I believe passenger service on that line ended in 1983.

My old boss was on the board of SEMTA at the time. He said ridership was dominated by rich lawyers from Birmingham and required huge [[even by transit standards) subsidies.

[pgn421]

How is somone going to pay the fine if they cant afford the fare?

[pgn421]

The people mover has even declined riders

[stasu1213]

My old boss was on the board of SEMTA at the time. He said ridership was dominated by rich lawyers from Birmingham and required huge [[even by transit standards) subsidies.

Are there pics of the Sent a railtrain the ran through the Cut?

[EastsideAl]

They paved it over for the dequindre cut bike path. [[at least the southern end of it.)

Exactly. And, nice as the Dequindre cut bike path is, I thought at the time they built it, and still think now, that it was a pretty short-sighted decision to remove the rail line. Of course, a bike path is a hell of a lot better than the Archer-era notion to make it into an expressway to a riverfront casino zone.

Relatively recently? Hey, Al, you must be my age I believe passenger service on that line ended in 1983.

OK, yeah, I'm old. But I do remember riding that train from the Ren Cen to Royal Oak and Birmingham and back again as a young adult. It was still running, and I knew people who commuted on it, when I worked downtown after graduating from MSU, and the tracks were still in use for years after the end of passenger service. So, it is well within living memory. Unlike Detroit's old streetcar system, which is now slipping into the mists of black and white photographed history.

[jackie5275]

OK, yeah, I'm old. But I do remember riding that train from the Ren Cen to Royal Oak and Birmingham and back again as a young adult. It was still running, and I knew people who commuted on it, when I worked downtown after graduating from MSU, and the tracks were still in use for years after the end of passenger service. So, it is well within living memory. Unlike Detroit's old streetcar system, which is now slipping into the mists of black and white photographed history.

As I remember it, it was an Amtrak commuter train that ran from Pontiac, right across Woodward from the Phoenix Center, with stops in Birmingham & Royal Oak, down to where it stopped near the RenCen as Al has said. I remember it because we used to take it to the fireworks downtown when I was a kid growing up in the Pontiac area in the 70s. I think it stopped service before 1983 because we started driving to the fireworks in early 80s.

[MSUguy]

do we really need more ARMED forces in our city? I think a non-uniformed employee can issue the penalty fares just fine.

Detroit already has transit cops so I'm not sure what you're whining about.

[professorscott]

As I remember it, it was an Amtrak commuter train that ran from Pontiac, right across Woodward from the Phoenix Center, with stops in Birmingham & Royal Oak, down to where it stopped near the RenCen as Al has said. I remember it because we used to take it to the fireworks downtown when I was a kid growing up in the Pontiac area in the 70s. I think it stopped service before 1983 because we started driving to the fireworks in early 80s.

From detroittransithistory.info: "Beginning in 1974, SEMTA contracted with Grand Trunk Western Railroad and began offering commuter train service between Downtown Detroit and the city of Pontiac. In 1976, SEMTA managed to purchase the locomotives, and the cars it used, and even built parking lots along the route. Unfortunately, with downtown employment falling, the Detroit-Pontiac commuter rail service was discontinued in 1983."

[EastsideAl]

Oh, and I can't wait to ride on the Q Line. I've delayed my trip to NYC for a day so I can be there on opening day.

I'm hoping this is the start of something bigger [[unlike the People Mover) for transit in Detroit. And I very much agree with the poster above [[despite the weird usage of "Belle Island") about building another line on Jefferson and Michigan in the near future.

[emu steve]

Oh, and I can't wait to ride on the Q Line. I've delayed my trip to NYC for a day so I can be there on opening day.

I'm hoping this is the start of something bigger [[unlike the People Mover) for transit in Detroit. And I very much agree with the poster above [[despite the weird usage of "Belle Island") about building another line on Jefferson and Michigan in the near future.

Oops, I must be on the wrong forum.

I should have been on NewYorkYes...

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/...k/belle-island

[emu steve]

Oops, I did have a brain fart.

Everyone believes that a QL2 along E. Jefferson to Belle Isle [[actually a little further east) would be great for the neighborhoods along that route.

But few have talked what effect that line would have continuing through downtown up Michigan Ave. to say 14th or 16th.

Developers, buy your Michigan Ave. property now... Train station, anyone?

[jackie5275]

From detroittransithistory.info: "Beginning in 1974, SEMTA contracted with Grand Trunk Western Railroad and began offering commuter train service between Downtown Detroit and the city of Pontiac. In 1976, SEMTA managed to purchase the locomotives, and the cars it used, and even built parking lots along the route. Unfortunately, with downtown employment falling, the Detroit-Pontiac commuter rail service was discontinued in 1983."

Curse me for relying on my memory and not fully researching this.

[professorscott]

Oops, I did have a brain fart.

Everyone believes that a QL2 along E. Jefferson to Belle Isle [[actually a little further east) would be great for the neighborhoods along that route.

But few have talked what effect that line would have continuing through downtown up Michigan Ave. to say 14th or 16th.

Developers, buy your Michigan Ave. property now... Train station, anyone?

I think an East Jefferson route would be easier to get started in the short term than Michigan Avenue; there is too much of a gap in Michigan Avenue between downtown and Corktown at the moment, IMVHO.

However, MVHO is not dispositive here; what it comes down to is this. Roger Penske is not, most likely, going to reprise his starring role in any new streetcar line, and John Hertel is busy running SMART and doesn't have the amount of time it would take to reboot and get a new effort started. [[I haven't talked to John but I know how busy he is; Roger just about came out publicly and said he wouldn't do this again.)

So all we need - for East Jeff, or Michigan, or, fuck it, Mound Road, wherever you like, is for somebody to come along and be the champion, and put together private philanthropic and/or developer money sufficient to convince Uncle Sugar that we are serious and can dip into the federal trough once again, minus the cost of a service facility since we already have that, plus the cost of some vehicle storage space since the one we have won't easily expand. [[Ooh - and - make sure any new tracks connect to the QLine tracks, otherwise the fact that there's already a service facility isn't of much use.)

[emu steve]

I agree that QLine could use a 'modular' legs approach.

We have the trunk [[QLine) open for business Friday.

The next 'leg' could be E. Jefferson but that could take say 8 - 10 years and someone to lead the effort.

And yes, a private/public partnership with QLine convincing DOT that streetcar in and around downtowns have very significant urban transit/renewal value.

And as the good professor indicates, whatever legs added need to be fully integrated into the 'existing' QLine... and an E. Jefferson design need integrate so that it could be extended westward on Michigan Ave.

My fantasy land prediction: in 5 - 8 years, the 'existing QLine' route will be built up. If in 8 years, empty parcels aren't developed, they probably won't.

By then, the next 'development wave' should be with QLine2 down E. Jefferson and stimulate the riverfront development.

It would be nice to see real progress on QLine2 by 2025.

While it may sound silly to compare a short haul street car system to D.C.s subway system, one point I think it relevant:

The D.C. subway system opened in 1976 with only a few stations along one [[red) line. The subway system added more lines and stations each decade since. Now it is over 100 miles and still not finished. The last line [[silver) is going to Dulles Airport and will be finished I think in a few years.

Literally, the subway system, as we know it, will be completed around 2020, or FORTY FOUR YEARS, after the first line opened. What opened in 1976 while heavy rail and not a street car system, covered a small linear area. I'll guess maybe less than 5 miles.

It would be very, very incorrect to assume that the D.C. mayor and U.S. President said, "let there be a great subway system for our people" and the whole thing was designed, funded and built in 10 - 15 years.

More like a half century.

[drjeff]

How is the fare buying going to work? A printed, scannable receipt from the machines in each station? Is there going to be an app so one can just buy online and have an electronic receipt [[which would make the most sense)?

[Tig3rzhark]

Before considering adding a streetcar down E. Jefferson, it would be a good idea to at least get the QLine as far as 8Mile. The 498 Reflex line on Woodward that goes as far as Somerset, is only around on a trial basis and at any time, could be removed.

Maybe before putting down a streetcar on E.Jefferson, you should put one on Graitot instead.

Other streets like Grand River and Michigan, would be recommend for BRT.

Although as much I would as like to have light rail along Michigan from Detroit to Ann Arbor, I don't have much confidence in our metro area as a whole.

[emu steve]

Before considering adding a streetcar down E. Jefferson, it would be a good idea to at least get the QLine as far as 8Mile. The 498 Reflex line on Woodward that goes as far as Somerset, is only around on a trial basis and at any time, could be removed.

Maybe before putting down a streetcar on E.Jefferson, you should put one on Graitot instead.

Other streets like Grand River and Michigan, would be recommend for BRT.

Although as much I would as like to have light rail along Michigan from Detroit to Ann Arbor, I don't have much confidence in our metro area as a whole.

I don't know enough about Detroit and commuting patterns and neighborhoods, but how much revitalization effect would extending QLine to 8 mile bring? Would neighborhoods revitalize and grow?

The other thing, I believe, that many believe is that street cars are best for short haul trips say up to say 3 or max 5 miles in areas where there is a lot of 'infill' [[I made the term up for this usage) trips.

By 'infill' trip I mean a trip between two points, but usually not both terminuses [[or even one terminus).

E.g., someone might go from WSU to New Center. WSU to LCA or Comerica Park. Or maybe downtown to VAMC. Downtown to LCA or Comerica Park.

These trips are very different than someone getting on a transit [[e.g., street car) and going 8 miles from 8 mile to Congress.

Ideally, there is a different type of service, an 'express service' from say 8 mile with stops at New Center, WSU, and downtown.

The way I envision QLine is not a mass mover of thousands of people at rush hours from 8 mile road to midtown/downtown but a short haul mover of hundreds of people per hour along a short route [[< 3 miles or so).

Re Gratiot: How far would it extend and how many folks would use it?

BTW, the reasons I selected E. Jefferson and secondardly, Michigan Ave., is that these areas could really revitalize, esp. E. Jefferson. E. Jefferson could be like Midtown, a hot area for folks to live who want to work and play in downtown or Midtown. E. Jefferson would have a lot of potential with Belle Isle, Riverwalk, and everything up near Ren Cen.

[Tig3rzhark]

I don't know enough about Detroit and commuting patterns and neighborhoods, but how much revitalization effect would extending QLine to 8 mile bring? Would neighborhoods revitalize and grow?

The other thing, I believe, that many believe is that street cars are best for short haul trips say up to say 3 or max 5 miles in areas where there is a lot of 'infill' [[I made the term up for this usage) trips.

By 'infill' trip I mean a trip between two points, but usually not both terminuses [[or even one terminus).

E.g., someone might go from WSU to New Center. WSU to LCA or Comerica Park. Or maybe downtown to VAMC. Downtown to LCA or Comerica Park.

These trips are very different than someone getting on a transit [[e.g., street car) and going 8 miles from 8 mile to Congress.

Ideally, there is a different type of service, an 'express service' from say 8 mile with stops at New Center, WSU, and downtown.

The way I envision QLine is not a mass mover of thousands of people at rush hours from 8 mile road to midtown/downtown but a short haul mover of hundreds of people per hour along a short route [[< 3 miles or so).

Re Gratiot: How far would it extend and how many folks would use it?

BTW, the reasons I selected E. Jefferson and secondardly, Michigan Ave., is that these areas could really revitalize, esp. E. Jefferson. E. Jefferson could be like Midtown, a hot area for folks to live who want to work and play in downtown or Midtown. E. Jefferson would have a lot of potential with Belle Isle, Riverwalk, and everything up near Ren Cen.

Extending the QLine to 8Mile could help revive Highland Park along with the other Detroit neighborhoods, considering that's where the Model T Ford was built. The QLine could run in the center lane from Grand Blvd to 8 Mile, near the Fairgrounds, making it easier to get to the Meijers there, with limited stops along the way.

As for Gratiot, even though there's a 598 SMART Reflex bus that already runs along that route, I'm more confident that more people would use it when the trial is over. There's no guarantee that the Reflex route would stay permanently. Since the SMART has a policy of normally having most of their buses with the exception of the 200 Michigan, of only going as far as the city borders after certain hours. The next street car route could go as far as 8 Mile. And the regular SMART Graitot can stay out of the city.

Should any future light rail or BRT routes be created, then those routes would be under the control of the RTA instead of SMART or DDOT alone.

[emu steve]

Here is the Detnews article on QLine.

http://ux.detroitnews.com/story/news...ide/101533220/

One thing that bothers me: 20 - 25 minutes between trains. I really believe, based on my extensive experience with the D.C. subway system, way too long.
I think riders of the D.C. subway tolerate latencies between trains of about 12 minutes. Anything longer is considered an 'eternity.' I walked out of Verizon Center Sunday night and saw a message board: 18 minutes and I groaned.

BTW, this article has a nice link to parking facilities along the QLine route [[this is non-Detroit city parking facilities):

http://detroit.bestparking.com/neigh...idtown-parking

Yes, I'm sure sports fans coming from the 'burbs will quickly learn which Midtown parking sites work best for them and then QLine to the sports venue, e.g., park at a site near WSU and hop aboard QLine.

Curious if CBD workers will say get off 94 at Trumbull [[if coming from the western suburbs) and park at a WSU parking lot and QLine to CBD?

[Junjie]

Here is the Detnews article on QLine.

http://ux.detroitnews.com/story/news...ide/101533220/

One thing that bothers me: 20 - 25 minutes between trains.

It's a confusing quote in the article, but I don't think that's what they are saying.

“Stopping at every stop, it might take about 30 minutes,” M-1 Rail spokeswoman Sommer Woods said. “The goal is to get it down to having a streetcar at every station every 20-25 minutes.”

In context, she's talking about how long it will take a streetcar to run the entire length; I think she's trying to say that initially it will take about 30 minutes but they want to get that down to 20-25 minutes. I think she meant "The goal is to get it down to having [the] streetcar [visit] every station every 20-25 minutes."

Most previous articles said streetcars would come every 15 minutes, and there was a recent one in this flurry of coverage saying there would be four streetcars in service at most times out of the six available. Based on the quote, it will take on average 60 minutes for each vehicle to go New Center - Congress - New Center. Divide that by 4 streetcars and you get 15 minutes until the next streetcar arrives at any particular station.

I would still much prefer every 12 or 10 minutes [[five or six vehicles in service at a time), but then I'm not paying for operations.

[emu steve]

It's a confusing quote in the article, but I don't think that's what they are saying.

“Stopping at every stop, it might take about 30 minutes,” M-1 Rail spokeswoman Sommer Woods said. “The goal is to get it down to having a streetcar at every station every 20-25 minutes.”

In context, she's talking about how long it will take a streetcar to run the entire length; I think she's trying to say that initially it will take about 30 minutes but they want to get that down to 20-25 minutes. I think she meant "The goal is to get it down to having [the] streetcar [visit] every station every 20-25 minutes."

Most previous articles said streetcars would come every 15 minutes, and there was a recent one in this flurry of coverage saying there would be four streetcars in service at most times out of the six available. Based on the quote, it will take on average 60 minutes for each vehicle to go New Center - Congress - New Center. Divide that by 4 streetcars and you get 15 minutes until the next streetcar arrives at any particular station.

I would still much prefer every 12 or 10 minutes [[five or six vehicles in service at a time), but then I'm not paying for operations.

Thanks. As I indicated in my post, I'm used to 12 - 15 minute time intervals between trains in the D.C. subway system during NON-rush hour service.

If QLine can do 15 minutes on average then it would meet my expectations as it means someone entering the station would expect to wait on average 7 - 8 minutes [[range 0 - 15 minutes - half the time < 7.5 minutes and half the time > 7.5 minutes).

BTW, if I understand your post and if a street car makes a round trip in 20 - 25 minutes, then the time from Congress to W. Grand Blvd would be 10 - 12.5 minutes which isn't bad.

[Junjie]

Thanks. As I indicated in my post, I'm used to 12 - 15 minute time intervals between trains in the D.C. subway system during NON-rush hour service.

If QLine can do 15 minutes on average then it would meet my expectations as it means someone entering the station would expect to wait on average 7 - 8 minutes [[range 0 - 15 minutes - half the time < 7.5 minutes and half the time > 7.5 minutes).

BTW, if I understand your post and if a street car makes a round trip in 20 - 25 minutes, then the time from Congress to W. Grand Blvd would be 10 - 12.5 minutes which isn't bad.

Yes, I've spent a lot of time on the DC Metro and often groaned in annoyance at any wait time with two digits.

Looks like my post was still a bit confusing so to attempt to clarify...

1-way trip, New Center to Congress: 30 minutes
Round-trip, New Center to Congress and back to New Center: ~60 minutes.

Just divide 60 minutes by the number of streetcars in operation to find how often the streetcar comes to any station [[each one needs to make the entire "loop" up and down the line to get back to a given station). E.g. if there were only 1 streetcar, it would come to the stop at Congress every 60 minutes. They have said usually there will be 4 streetcars, so they will come every 15 minutes assuming even spacing.

If they can get the one-way run time down to 25 minutes, then you now have streetcars coming every 50/4 = 12.5 minutes without any additional operator cost.