Height Limitations for Pre-depression Detroit Skyscrapers?

[stasu1213]

Upon my returning from New York I had wondered why Detroit has not build any buildings taller than 73 stories. The Chrysler building in New York is 100 stories. Why wasn't it built in Michigan instead of New York back in the 20s? Did Detroit had a height limitation policy on the buildings that were built before the depression?

[MIRepublic]

No, there were no height limitations.

[mwilbert]

It is more expensive to build higher, so people only do it when there is a scarcity of land. The depression came before things got to that point in Detroit. There wasn't any really good reason for the RenCen to have a 70 story hotel, but it wasn't built on the basis of economics.

[crawford]

Are you talking about height limitations or floor counts?

Floor count is not a good proxy for relative height [[different types of uses have different height requirements). There are 40-floor office towers that are taller than 80-floor condos.

Assuming you are talking about height, that is usually a function of high demand and space shortages. Detroit currently has neither, so the zoning code is irrelevent.

[Lorax]

The Chrysler Building ended up as a speculative office building.

Walter Chrysler I'm told was interested in moving the HQ there, but two things happened- the Great Depression, and Anna Dodge, Chrysler's largest shareholder behind WPC himself, put the kabash on it.

She said she wouldn't support any part of Dodge Brothers to be based in New York, eventhough she and her sister in law sold their interests in Dodge Brothers to Chrysler through Dillion-Read Company in New York back in 1925. She converted her interest in Dodge into Chrysler shares, and held sway over quite a few decisions during that period.

[Gistok]

Upon my returning from New York I had wondered why Detroit has not build any buildings taller than 73 stories. The Chrysler building in New York is 100 stories. Why wasn't it built in Michigan instead of New York back in the 20s? Did Detroit had a height limitation policy on the buildings that were built before the depression?

Actually the Chrysler Building in New York tops off at 77 stories. And even the 102 story Empire State building really tops off at 86 usable floors. Everything above 86 is mostly mechanical, or part of the Zeppelin mooring mast floors, and pinnacle of the building... unsuitable for office space.

Due to the updrafts of NYC, the use of the mooring mast for Zeppelins on top of the Empire State Building was never successfully attempted. And besides... who in their right mind would want to "deplane" on top of that building!

[stasu1213]

I heard that the World Trade Centers only used about 3/4 of the space they had; if that much. I guess Detroit had more land to stretch out. We concentrated on practicallity instead of height I guess. Chicago had just as much land but decided to build upward to compete against new york. I had read that the Book Cadillac's original suggested height was going to be 80 stories high or 800 feet. This when it was being built during the 20's. People say that Detroit has the most beautiful art deco buildings. More than New York and Chi-town.

[48202]

Stasu, the World Trade Center isn't like skycrapers built in the 20's or 30's because it was
was designed starting the early 1960's, and construction was completed in the early 70's. It would be more appopriate to compare the WTC to Rencen.

[EastsideAl]

The WTC, like the Ren Cen, was built as an urban redevelopment project. But the WTC was built by an actual governmental [[or quasi-governmental) agency, the Port Authority of NY and NJ. For both of these buildings size was not a matter of economics, but of civic symbolism. In fact, the WTC was a giant money loser for several years and was mostly filled with government agencies until the Wall St. area office market boomed in the '90s.

Both NYC and Chicago though were big corporate/financial centers in a way that Detroit never was. With land costs higher than Detroit's, and significantly greater population pressures, so taller buildings were built in those cities. In the Detroit area, outside of the cluster of office buildings downtown and in the New Center area, our great monuments of commerce were the giant factory complexes, many with beautiful [[in an industrial sense) glass walled buildings designed by Albert Kahn and the like.

[Gsgeorge]

Back in Detroit's architectural heyday [[1920s & 30s) there were designs for buildings that exceeded eighty stories, specifically the Book Tower extension and the Fisher Building three-tower concepts. The images have circulated on these forums for a while. The extension of the Book would have been the tallest building in the world at the time of its construction. Lack of demand & the Depression put plans to a halt.

Someone come in here and post those images please!

[MIRepublic]

Just something to make note of, Detroit's historic skyline wasn't particularly short or small, and when some of the towers were buil,t they ranked among the tallest in the country, at the time. I think there is a misperception, here, that even during its hey-day Detroit had a small skyline, and that simply wasn't the case.

I think it's also an apples-to-oranges comparison to compare Detroit to Chicago and NYC even back in the day when Detroit was more successful. People really have to remember the difference in industry. Detroit was never a major [[national) financial or corporate center, and those industries were the most likely to blow money on oppulent skyscrapers.

[davewindsor]

Detroit was never a major [[national) financial or corporate center, and those industries were the most likely to blow money on oppulent skyscrapers.

Yes it was. Detroit had 14 banks listed and traded on the Detroit Stock Exchange in 1924 http://www.detroitstockexchange.com/dse_1924.htm#lbanks and many head offices in downtown. In many history books on Detroit in 20s and 30s, I read again and again that Detroit was competing with Chicago for second place behind New York as a major financial centre.

[Trumpeteer]

Upon my returning from New York I had wondered why Detroit has not build any buildings taller than 73 stories.

Because we can't fill the first 72!

[iheartthed]

Yes it was. Detroit had 14 banks listed and traded on the Detroit Stock Exchange in 1924 http://www.detroitstockexchange.com/dse_1924.htm#lbanks and many head offices in downtown. In many history books on Detroit in 20s and 30s, I read again and again that Detroit was competing with Chicago for second place behind New York as a major financial centre.

Yeah, the major misconception is that Detroit wasn't a large financial center. The financial centers were NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia and Detroit.

[stasu1213]

Gistok was explaining how some tall buildings uses half their spaces so I had eleborated 48202

[48202]

Gistok was explaining how some tall buildings uses half their spaces so I had eleborated 48202

Thank you for clarifying, Stasu. When you said that “I heard that the World Trade Centers only used about 3/4 of the space they had; if that much”, I thought you were referring to location of the buildings on the WTC site, and using part of the property for a large exterior plaza.

At the risk of threadjacking, I’m still curious about your use of the 3/4 figure. If you were elaborating on Gistok’s comments about usable floors, and referring to the usage of the floors in the WTC, I’ll point out that in the two 110 story towers, only 8 floors in each were used for mechanical space [[spread out at intervals, not all at the top), two floors in each were used for skylobbies, and in Tower 1, the 110th floor housed radio equipment. The remainder of the floors were occupied.

[Big Dog]

Testing post

[crawford]

The WTC was basically 100% occupied in the 1980's and 1990's.

It had problems at the beginning, because it opened in the middle of the worst economic period in NYC history [[the early- and mid-70's).

[48202]

The WTC was basically 100% occupied in the 1980's and 1990's.

It had problems at the beginning, because it opened in the middle of the worst economic period in NYC history [[the early- and mid-70's).

I don’t think Stasu was referring to occupancy rates. But if he was, here’s a Port Authority press release that indicates an occupancy rate of 78 percent in 1996, and 98 percent in 2001.

http://www.panynj.gov/abouttheportau...ndex.php?id=61

[stasu1213]

I had brought up the point that the WTC was not 100 percent occupied for I had saw a documentory about the WTC in 2004. It was reported in the film that Morgan Stanley and some other firm took up about four to six floors of the WTC and the building was only 3/4 occupied with tenants. I was also saying that reading the blogs from different people I feel that Detroit was very practical in not building any high rise during the 20's or 70's. We have more land than Manhattan to stretch out many buildings. Another person had said that the RenCen didn't have to be as tall as it is. Back in the 70's detroit was showing signs of decline and didn't need the office space.

[crawford]

I was also saying that reading the blogs from different people I feel that Detroit was very practical in not building any high rise during the 20's or 70's.

You do know that almost every highrise in Detroit was built in the 1920's and 1970's right? You know, the RenCen, the entire financial district, the entire Washington Boulevard/Grand Circus area, etc.?

Not sure what you mean by "practical", but if you think highrises are "impractical", than the 20's and 70's were the most impractical decades of Detroit's existence.

We have more land than Manhattan to stretch out many buildings.

Manhattan is a small part of NYC. You are saying the entire city limits of Detroit is bigger than the smallest borough of NYC? That seems fairly obvious.

Are you saying that highrises were only built because Manhattan is geographically constrained? Than how would this explain all the highrises outside of Manhattan [[Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Jersey City, Fort Lee, etc.)?

[stasu1213]

More business had moved downtown in the 20s. The RenCen did not needed to be built

[48202]

Stasu, you started this thread discussing Detroit skyscraper heights, so I’ll point out that RenCen was the world’s tallest hotel when it was built. When the RenCen developers did this, what statement do you think they were making to the rest of the world?

And 32 years later, it is still the tallest hotel in the western hemisphere.

http://www.emporis.com/en/bu/sk/st/tp/ty/ho/

[MIRepublic]

I'm not sure it was any kind of statement. The architect had already designed a near-identical tower in Atlanta, and used the same theme for a hotel in LA. Seems to me that it was a rather generic concept, at the time, for that architect, a theme he only tweaked slightly.

[48202]

MiRepublic, I'm aware of John Portman’s work - but suspect that Stasu1213 may not be. Building forms don’t take shape accidently – even when they are copies of previous projects. Henry Ford II, Mayor Roman Gribbs, and the others involved were well aware what this project would do to the Detroit skyline, and they were making a specific statement about Detroit by building this project. If nothing else, this building could have been 4 feet shorter then Peachtree Plaza in Atlanta, but it wasn’t. It is 4 feet taller.

Here’s an interesting article. I didn’t know, or forgot, that there was a contest to name the project, and that there was a planned residential phase.

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/history/index.php?id=122