"Qline Effect"? 20-story-plus high-rise Rumored for New Center

**Lowell** · April-17-17, 08:47 AM

I'll give this one a ten per cent chance on the "Skipper's Rule" scale but it is indicative of the continuing interest in the New Center. According to Crain's the possible project would be on the southwest corner of Woodward Avenue and West Grand Boulevard.

It is not clear if they mean exactly on the corner or just south as the entity behind it. It is the plan of a Philadelphia developer by the name of Grasso operating as 6565 Woodward Holdings LLC. who is under contract to purchase the property from Midtown Detroit Inc. It was registered in January.

A phase increasingly bandied about is the "Qline Effect", this one being cited as another example:

Maurice Cox, the city's planning director, said he has not been briefed on Grasso's plans and cautioned that he "can't count the number of speculative development projects that come on our radar and amount to nothing."

"I think we get about a dozen a week," he said.

He also said the QLine has been a key factor in boosting development interest along the streetcar's route.

"There is no question that the QLine, with that singular, 3.3-mile investment, all of the neighborhoods to the east and the west of it have become transit-oriented development opportunities," he said. "That's a good thing for Detroit, and it talks about the power of that fixed transit investment that developers can count on being in place in perpetuity."

I'm happy to see all these bites but I am still trying to wrap my mind around the appeal of the Qline in creating the interest it seems to be doing.

**Scottathew** · April-17-17, 08:57 AM

Over the weekend I imagined in my mind M1-Rail expanded up to Pontiac and cities strategically discussing where stations would be. The cities would then re-zone land around the stations to allow for high-rise development. Land values and densities would greatly increase in areas that are within winter walking distance from the stations as more and more professionals find themselves with jobs in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

**southen** · April-17-17, 09:17 AM

Didn't Sue Mosey hint at some buildings of 20+ stories coming to the Midtown/New Center area? This is great. Density along Woodward will go a long way into enticing smaller developers to reach out into places like New Center, Woodbridge etc.

**Gsgeorge** · April-17-17, 09:31 AM

The faster they can get the street car down Michigan, Gratiot, and Jefferson, the better.

**Zacha341** · April-17-17, 09:57 AM

Well for what it's worth that high rise apartment building nearby on the corner of Seward and Woodward is being rehabbed. It sat vacant and ruined for over 15 years!

**DeLemur** · April-17-17, 11:23 AM

Qline starts in a month! We'll see how it goes. It looks nice, but will need ridership to show continuing interest.

As for development, the success of DuCharme place and Orleans landing will be interesting to see, then further down the road the residential off of the stadiums. How's the Scott doing with occupancy? The Strathmore certainly filled up quick. One downside though is property values have gotten so high so quick, that Detroit's competitive advantage and being a great value is changing quick.

**emu steve** · April-17-17, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

Over the weekend I imagined in my mind M1-Rail expanded up to Pontiac and cities strategically discussing where stations would be. The cities would then re-zone land around the stations to allow for high-rise development. Land values and densities would greatly increase in areas that are within winter walking distance from the stations as more and more professionals find themselves with jobs in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

This sounds like 'chapter and verse' of what has happened in the Washington, D.C. area.

Development has occurred around subway stations because it sure as hell beats driving in downtown D.C. [[I did yesterday in D.C. on EASTER Sunday and took me 40 minutes to go 5 miles).

Quite simply, if someone works downtown or another employment center [[e.g., Tysons Corner, Ballston, Pentagon, etc. etc.) one tries to take public transportation.

And if you walk out your door and go 5 minutes to a subway station and then get off the subway and walk another 5 minutes to the door of your place of work, consider yourself in D.C. heaven.

Anyone who has tried to drive a mile or two during the evening rush in downtown D.C. knows what driving hell is like: Gridlock, one-way streets, traffic circles, inattentive pedestrians, etc.

**ABetterDetroit** · April-17-17, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by DeLemur

Qline starts in a month! We'll see how it goes. It looks nice, but will need ridership to show continuing interest.

As for development, the success of DuCharme place and Orleans landing will be interesting to see, then further down the road the residential off of the stadiums. How's the Scott doing with occupancy? The Strathmore certainly filled up quick. One downside though is property values have gotten so high so quick, that Detroit's competitive advantage and being a great value is changing quick.

I believe just the opposite is true. If apartments are $600 a month and plentiful it sends a strong signal that something is wrong.

High demand and a rising market has the opposite effect.

People like validation to the decisions they make. Makes them more comfortable. As much as people like to think they are unique the reality is true, they prefer to go with the heard.

**emu steve** · April-17-17, 11:43 AM

This is the opposite, a story in today's Washington Post of what happened to an older area when a proposed streetcar line was killed by the pols in Arlington.

The opposite of what we hope would happen with public transit.

The most instructive part starts around paragraph seven.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.e7f0c79a9ee2

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · April-17-17, 02:00 PM

The Q-Line is no panacea for regional transit, of course. But I do favor extending it to Pontiac, as well as adding several arterial lines along several of the main boulevards leading into downtown. People won't [[for the most part) be riding great distances on it [[although that will certainly be possible). The bonus is that it greatly expands your "neighborhood" along the line. Going to work, out to dinner, to the store, to a bar with your buddies, to the dry cleaner, etc all suddenly can be done over a much larger area with speed and ease. A full length QLine would be full of tons of 1 or 2 or 5mile trips all along the route, not lots of 30 mile riders.

**dtowncitylover** · April-17-17, 02:29 PM

I repeat: A streetcar is not a mode of commuter suburban transit. It is a mode in urban, dense areas.

**emu steve** · April-17-17, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I repeat: A streetcar is not a mode of commuter suburban transit. It is a mode in urban, dense areas.

That is true.

If your one way trip is say 15 miles, a streetcar isn't going to hack it.

Maybe we can 'pivot' and someone can discuss: "Suburbanization and the decline of the streetcar in Detroit."

Is it too simple to say that with growth of the suburban population and job growth that the utility of a streetcar system declined until it wasn't feasible.

**emu steve** · April-17-17, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by DeLemur

Qline starts in a month! We'll see how it goes. It looks nice, but will need ridership to show continuing interest.

I agree completely. Today we are discussing optimistic projections, fantasies, dystopian projections, etc.

In four weeks QL starts to produce empirical data.

Ridership could be worse or could be better.

**douglasm** · April-17-17, 05:30 PM

Are there any rumblings on a further buildout?

In Seattle, Link light rail has spurred building in areas it serves, or is planning to serve. It's a reletively new thing out here, and has caught on like wildfire in a city that's very difficult to get around by car.

**dtowncitylover** · April-17-17, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by douglasm

Are there any rumblings on a further buildout?

As been said many times before, no. The private investors have always said they're not in it to run a transit system, they want it under RTA control. And until this happens, QLine will be what it is.

**professorscott** · April-17-17, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

As been said many times before, no. The private investors have always said they're not in it to run a transit system, they want it under RTA control. And until this happens, QLine will be what it is.

Spot on, Dtown, and I'll add to it. A streetcar is not a regional transit panacea, as others have pointed out. Additional buildout is possible - most likely under an RTA, but it's conceivable without that - but only within densely populated [[by residents, workers, visitors, whatever) areas and over short distances. My long-term vision for streetcars is that they serve various routes into and out of downtown, let's say along Jefferson or Gratiot or Michigan or Fort, or my favorite - East Jefferson - and then maybe one or two inner-suburban streetcars, perhaps one mimicking what Ferndale is trying to do with that streetcar-looking shuttle bus, only with better service parameters.

Streetcars aren't going to be built to serve regional transit needs because that's not their niche. If you want excellent Detroit to Birmingham transit, or Detroit to Mt. Clemens, or whatever, the solution is going to be something faster and with fewer stops, be that some kind of rapid-ish bus, or light rail, or commuter rail, or whatever. Streetcars fill an important niche, and [[former State Senator and current SMART CEO) John Hertel picked an excellent corridor for the first one here. [[Note to anyone who doesn't like Mr. Hertel: feel free not to like him, but it is beyond argument that he selected the corridor for QLine, including where it would stop and start to within a couple hundred feet, about ten years ago. I was in the room with him at the time.)

Excellent conversation! I hope it keeps going.

**Junjie** · April-17-17, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Spot on, Dtown, and I'll add to it. A streetcar is not a regional transit panacea, as others have pointed out. Additional buildout is possible - most likely under an RTA, but it's conceivable without that - but only within densely populated [[by residents, workers, visitors, whatever) areas and over short distances. My long-term vision for streetcars is that they serve various routes into and out of downtown, let's say along Jefferson or Gratiot or Michigan or Fort, or my favorite - East Jefferson - and then maybe one or two inner-suburban streetcars, perhaps one mimicking what Ferndale is trying to do with that streetcar-looking shuttle bus, only with better service parameters.

Streetcars aren't going to be built to serve regional transit needs because that's not their niche. If you want excellent Detroit to Birmingham transit, or Detroit to Mt. Clemens, or whatever, the solution is going to be something faster and with fewer stops, be that some kind of rapid-ish bus, or light rail, or commuter rail, or whatever. Streetcars fill an important niche, and [[former State Senator and current SMART CEO) John Hertel picked an excellent corridor for the first one here. [[Note to anyone who doesn't like Mr. Hertel: feel free not to like him, but it is beyond argument that he selected the corridor for QLine, including where it would stop and start to within a couple hundred feet, about ten years ago. I was in the room with him at the time.)

Excellent conversation! I hope it keeps going.

Extend QLine along East Jefferson to Van Dyke. Build out a 3 to 5 mile line running on Gratiot through downtown and then out Michigan. Sell the naming rights and call it the GM Line [[ha!).

While I understand there may not be any movement from the original investors to make an expansion happen, we have heard formal things about running a streetcar on East Jefferson during the East Riverfront RFQ in 2015. I suppose people are just being hopeful / planning for the best?

With the momentum we are seeing around the QLine I do wonder if pressure will build for extensions or new segments, especially if ridership is good. But I don't know who's going to pay for it since the RTA has no money and the city isn't exactly awash in spare transit dollars for capital construction...

**dtowncitylover** · April-18-17, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Junjie

While I understand there may not be any movement from the original investors to make an expansion happen, we have heard formal things about running a streetcar on East Jefferson during the East Riverfront RFQ in 2015. I suppose people are just being hopeful / planning for the best?

With the momentum we are seeing around the QLine I do wonder if pressure will build for extensions or new segments, especially if ridership is good. But I don't know who's going to pay for it since the RTA has no money and the city isn't exactly awash in spare transit dollars for capital construction...

Your second paragraph answers the preceding paragraph. In the RTA plan, it was going to come under RTA control around 2024. But since the plan was defeated, that's in limbo.

Professor, do you know what would it take for the streetcar to go under DDOT's control? Now DDOT doesn't have the best track record in managing transit, but it's getting better, and considering it was birthed out the Department of STREET RAILWAYS, it would be fitting for DDOT to have a street railway division.

**iheartthed** · April-18-17, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Spot on, Dtown, and I'll add to it. A streetcar is not a regional transit panacea, as others have pointed out. Additional buildout is possible - most likely under an RTA, but it's conceivable without that - but only within densely populated [[by residents, workers, visitors, whatever) areas and over short distances. My long-term vision for streetcars is that they serve various routes into and out of downtown, let's say along Jefferson or Gratiot or Michigan or Fort, or my favorite - East Jefferson - and then maybe one or two inner-suburban streetcars, perhaps one mimicking what Ferndale is trying to do with that streetcar-looking shuttle bus, only with better service parameters.

Couldn't they actually have a commuter rail service running between Detroit and Oakland County's Woodward Corridor communities pretty quickly? Like in less than a year since the tracks are already there and the only hindrance is political/economical? I think would be far faster, cheaper, and logical, to do that than extend QLine to Pontiac. QLine's next priority should be on building out lines on the other avenues.

**Junjie** · April-18-17, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Your second paragraph answers the preceding paragraph. In the RTA plan, it was going to come under RTA control around 2024. But since the plan was defeated, that's in limbo.

Professor, do you know what would it take for the streetcar to go under DDOT's control? Now DDOT doesn't have the best track record in managing transit, but it's getting better, and considering it was birthed out the Department of STREET RAILWAYS, it would be fitting for DDOT to have a street railway division.

Not certain I understand you. I was noting that other groups in the city like the Riverfront Conservancy have raised the topic of expansion. I guess you're saying that they only raised it on the assumption that the RTA would expand it, but then the RTA's master plan through 2026 never included anything about using millage money for QLine extensions. I was wondering whether this was just daydreaming in the RFQ [["wouldn't it be nice someday...") or whether people think there are plausible alternative routes to the RTA for making an extension happen if the first segment is a success.

I'm looking at page 7 in this document. "Connectivity and expansion of M1 Rail via East Jefferson Avenue, including proposed design, budget and financing." Did we ever hear what SOM came up with to meet that bullet point requirement?

**Hypestyles** · April-18-17, 11:02 AM

hopefully the development will come through and provide local jobs in its execution.

**Junjie** · April-18-17, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Couldn't they actually have a commuter rail service running between Detroit and Oakland County's Woodward Corridor communities pretty quickly? Like in less than a year since the tracks are already there and the only hindrance is political/economical? I think would be far faster, cheaper, and logical, to do that than extend QLine to Pontiac. QLine's next priority should be on building out lines on the other avenues.

You're completely right that the QLine should not be part of the discussion for connections that far out. Commuter rail - absolutely. If I were king of the universe, I'd favor a Chicago Metra-style frequent commuter rail service on routes like downtown-Pontiac, downtown-Ann Arbor, and downtown-Mt. Clemens. Trains every 20 minutes at rush and at least once an hour all day. Let any rapid transit keep to more manageable distances and terminate in the inner suburbs. Let streetcars serve the area inside Grand Boulevard.

But of course that's just wishful thinking. Best we can probably hope for in the next decade or two is what the RTA proposed: about 8 trains per day on those routes, and thus a service that's better than nothing but otherwise pretty much useless to anyone who's not commuting to a 9 to 5.

**One Shot** · April-18-17, 12:07 PM

What does the M1 rail accomplish that the normal city busses don't?
This thing already seems like a nightmare in traffic. I seen the commercial last night about how to yield to the thing. The locals are NOT going to abide by any of those rules. Can't even follow basic traffic laws. This thing cannot maneuver around obstructions like a bus can. I seen it testing over the weekend and it looks cool and all but is it really necc?
Am I missing something?

**dtowncitylover** · April-18-17, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Junjie

Not certain I understand you. I was noting that other groups in the city like the Riverfront Conservancy have raised the topic of expansion. I guess you're saying that they only raised it on the assumption that the RTA would expand it, but then the RTA's master plan through 2026 never included anything about using millage money for QLine extensions. I was wondering whether this was just daydreaming in the RFQ [["wouldn't it be nice someday...") or whether people think there are plausible alternative routes to the RTA for making an extension happen if the first segment is a success.

I'm looking at page 7 in this document. "Connectivity and expansion of M1 Rail via East Jefferson Avenue, including proposed design, budget and financing." Did we ever hear what SOM came up with to meet that bullet point requirement?

Correct that is what I am saying. If the RTA doesn't have the funding it doesn't have it. Therefore things can't get studied and built. That document is nice but it is daydreaming to think M1 Rail, as a private group, wants to build anything else. They were banking on the RTA passing like most other sane metro Detroiters.

**dtowncitylover** · April-18-17, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by One Shot

What does the M1 rail accomplish that the normal city busses don't?
This thing already seems like a nightmare in traffic. I seen the commercial last night about how to yield to the thing. The locals are NOT going to abide by any of those rules. Can't even follow basic traffic laws. This thing cannot maneuver around obstructions like a bus can. I seen it testing over the weekend and it looks cool and all but is it really necc?
Am I missing something?

Well, if they can't abide then they'll be hit by a streetcar and suffer the consequences. If they park on tracks they can get the $500 fine. Locals and non-locals will abide because they will be forced to change their habits. Simple as that.