Plans for the Joe Louis Arena Site

[Jason]

3WC, what do you think of all of the big projects from the Coleman Young era? Riverfront Towers, and the Ren Cen were charity projects, and One Detroit Center was an unknowledgable foreigner. But there was also Millender Center, the McNamara Federal Building, Trolley Plaza, 150 West Jefferson plus some I'm probably forgetting. It's hard to imagine so much getting built nowadays.

[ABetterDetroit]

AbetterDetroit: I was only parroting your initial post that stated FG would develop the site.

You are wrong to claim that the history of Riverfront Towers is irrelevant. Everything in real estate development is relevant.

Everyone knows that there have been real estate successes since RT was developed. There have been, probably, an equal number of failures.

I think we would both agree that the development of the JLA site will be very risky, but that's not to say there aren't risk takers around [[some with more money or access to money than brains) who will take a shot at the site. I hope someone does as I'm very curious to see how far the downtown Detroit real estate envelope can be pushed.

Anybody think Gilbert will take the shot on that location?

The thing that really amuses me is that Duggan has apparently mandated that if a hotel is built there it must have at least 300 rooms, but be no higher than 30 stories. Duggan, the real estate genius. Reminds me of that nitwit Archer mandating that each casino hotel must have at least 800 rooms. We all know how that turned out.

We will agree to disagree then. From my experiences current/future market conditions and projections, cost/tax vs. projected income ratios galore. Then financing, local zoning ordinances and environmental are heavily analyzed as well as current surrounding environment at depth.

What happened in 1929, 55 or 1983 was never part of the analysis in any shape or form. Old history is just that, history. The only thing on the table from decades ago on redeveloped property is what is above ground and underground that has cost associated in removal and or reconstruction. The journey through history ends there.

[Zads07]

We have an update, courtesy of the Detroit Free Press.

Demolition, or at least prep for demolition must begin before or by May 1.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2018/02/03/demolition-detroit-joe-louis-arena/1088694001/

Would love to see the street grid reconfigured before building a hotel.

[JonWylie]

We have an update, courtesy of the Detroit Free Press.

Demolition, or at least prep for demolition must begin before or by May 1.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2018/02/03/demolition-detroit-joe-louis-arena/1088694001/

Would love to see the street grid reconfigured before building a hotel.

Yeah the key to this site needs to be to be reconfiguring the street and making it a walkable area, right now its pretty much an island

[Atticus]

Yeah the key to this site needs to be to be reconfiguring the street and making it a walkable area, right now its pretty much an island

Even then, the best case would be that it ends up as a dead end peninsula, which is not going to attract pedestrians other than those heading to the new hotel.

Cobo on the East is not going away. The River on the South is not going away. And Riverfront Apartments on the West are not going away.

To me, best case scenario is that the site gets redeveloped with some residential that provides great views of the river, and has good riverwalk access, and that this residential is coupled with a large convention style hotel that is connected to Cobo and the People Mover.

The hotel should be on the north side of the site, and be a larger 30 story type tower with great skyline, Windsor, and Ambassador bridge views. But I think the people mover is key to getting the hotel connected with the rest of downtown.

[mikehamm45]

Would rather have it turn into green space for public use, difficult to route density that way

[mikeg19]

Again, burying the Lodge in that area would need to happen to truly integrate that area back into downtown. And even at that it's tough because of the already mentioned issues. Reconnect the street grid. But where does the hotel go? Conventional thinking says on the JLA riverfront site but they could opt to use the parking garage site instead and put another building/green space on the riverfront. I highly doubt that they will be willing to use much if any land there for green space, but it's an option. To me the real question is what the hell they are planning to do with the remaining chunk of land not used for a hotel/residential tower.

[Bham1982]

Real estate developments in Detroit from 35 years ago are irrelevant no matter how close to this site they where.

Riverfront Apartments are a failure today. They were converted to condos a few years back, and have never been profitable. The third tower was built in the 1990's, BTW, not "35 years ago".

Many fortunes have been made in real estate since then. Just look to The White House for an example of a high risk developer that had some success.

LOL! Trump inherited his RE money, and his father was anything but "high-risk". He built middle class housing for postwar GIs. Trump squandered all his daddy's money and was flat broke until he became a reality TV star.

"I love the uneducated" his is favorite catchphrase and it has proven true from Celebrity Apprentice right to the current nightmare.

[K-slice]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article..._medium=social

Perhaps a good thing if it gives the city/state more time to realize the best way to reuse this site is to bury the Lodge and remake the street grid. Although one would think that since this has been years in the making already this would [[should) have already been considered.

[mikeg19]

I can certainly see where they have deemed a hotel to not be the best use of land, although 2 years may be a bit longer than the city wants. Split the difference at 1 year and move on.

[Atticus]

Can they legally not build the 300 room hotel at this point? I can see why they may not want too, but is it a situation of “sorry but those are the terms of the deal... take it or leave it”? And if they don’t, does the property revert back to the city? I don’t know the answer, just curious.

[1953]

When it was first announced that the company would be given the land to build a 300 room hotel, I thought it was oddly particular. Markets change, demand changes, places change. Why stick a developer with such a specific requirement?

[Jason]

Everyone knew Detroit would eventually go bankrupt, they lent money to the city anyway, and then it went bankrupt. They might not be happy about what they got out of the bankruptcy, but they got what they got.

Having a deadline, and then a 2 year extension, implies that the city has discretion in the extension. If it didn't, there wouldn't be an extension format, the deadline would simply have been November 2019 in the first place.

From what I can tell, they're saying that they haven't submitted a development because of the complex nature of the site, and that the city planning department agrees with them that the site is complex.

But I don't see how the complex nature of the site is relevant to the deadline. The site was complex 4 years ago, it is complex today, it will be complex in 2 years, and it will be complex for many years after that. Unless they're actually working with the city to solve the freeway issue, but I doubt it.

It seems like they just have a lot of lawyers on staff and are either trying to worm out of the requirements, or are just stalling on the off chance that something advantageous happens within 2 years.

[Zads07]

From the Detroit News

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...osed/32849035/

Plan to demolish

"■The ramp for Exit 1A from the John C. Lodge Freeway that leads to the arena parking garage and Jefferson Avenue.
■The Cobo Center circular parking ramp on Congress between Second and Third avenues. The area would then be used for a possible Cobo expansion.
■The pedestrian tubes that link Cobo to the arena parking garage, and a walkway that links the garage to the arena."

[Shai_Hulud]

From the Detroit News

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...osed/32849035/

Plan to demolish

"■The ramp for Exit 1A from the John C. Lodge Freeway that leads to the arena parking garage and Jefferson Avenue.
■The Cobo Center circular parking ramp on Congress between Second and Third avenues. The area would then be used for a possible Cobo expansion.
■The pedestrian tubes that link Cobo to the arena parking garage, and a walkway that links the garage to the arena."

That sounds like a good start.

The article also mentions continuing third as a pedestrian bridge over the lodge, presumably connecting with Yzerman drive on the other side. That sounds okay, but it's probably the best we can hope for.

Hopefully there will be additional investment to the west along with more re-connection.

[bust]

That sounds like a good start.

The article also mentions continuing third as a pedestrian bridge over the lodge, presumably connecting with Yzerman drive on the other side. That sounds okay, but it's probably the best we can hope for.

Hopefully there will be additional investment to the west along with more re-connection.

Does Detroit really need expressways depositing cars zooming into the heart of the central business district anyway?

New York City does just fine with few interstates, and all but one ending as soon as it arrives in Manhattan. And that one, I-95, crosses Manhattan only for .7 miles and all the way up at 178th Street -- more than 10 miles from downtown.

[hybridy]

From the Detroit News

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...osed/32849035/

Plan to demolish

"■The ramp for Exit 1A from the John C. Lodge Freeway that leads to the arena parking garage and Jefferson Avenue.
■The Cobo Center circular parking ramp on Congress between Second and Third avenues. The area would then be used for a possible Cobo expansion.
■The pedestrian tubes that link Cobo to the arena parking garage, and a walkway that links the garage to the arena."

I think the parking garage is on the chopping block right?

[Shai_Hulud]

Does Detroit really need expressways depositing cars zooming into the heart of the central business district anyway?

I'm not against freeway removal. I just don't see any evidence that we have the money or political will to do it.

My commute would suffer, but if we have the development pressure, and we don't, then sure, rip out the bottom of the lodge and 375.

[Detroit Stylin]

Personally i think at a minimum the Lodge should turn into a surface street at least at Michigan or Grand River.

[Bham1982]

Does Detroit really need expressways depositing cars zooming into the heart of the central business district anyway?

New York City does just fine with few interstates, and all but one ending as soon as it arrives in Manhattan. And that one, I-95, crosses Manhattan only for .7 miles and all the way up at 178th Street -- more than 10 miles from downtown.

NYC has like 95% of CBD commuters traveling by modes other than private car.

If Detroit had similar modal splits, then, yeah, you could remove all the freeways. Under current conditions it would be extremely foolish and makes the city less competitive.

[gthomas]

Perfect examples of how freeways destroys urbanism, yuck.

[dtowncitylover]

Yes, we don't have 10 million people. Yes, we don't have one of the world's most extensive subway systems. Yes, we are still very car-centric.

But our freeways have still played their part in destroying the city. We need to re-sow our urban fabric. We need cohesiveness if we want the city's CBD [[downtown to New Center) and its close residential neighborhoods to function even a tenth of what Manhattan is. Of course this deals much more than freeways.

The city is for people. Not cars.

[gthomas]

Wondering why the Joe Louis People Mover station hasn't been mentioned? Either to be demolished and built new or incorporated into the new planned. If it does, will it be renamed?

[DetroitSoldier]

I think it will be a pivotal part of the redevelopment. Incorporating the existing station would help link new hotel space to the rest of downtown. Even fixing street grid issues still does not deny the fact that there is a massive convention center blocking the site from direct links to the majority of the city center. The PM would help connect out of downers who may not enjoy the walk.

I also see future potential in this station with more music events at West Riverfront Park this summer, and after it's redevelopment a link to access the park for those that are downtown but not near the existing riverwalk.

[hybridy]

Wondering why the Joe Louis People Mover station hasn't been mentioned? Either to be demolished and built new or incorporated into the new planned. If it does, will it be renamed?

i don't think it has to be demolished. all of the gerbil tubes that connect to jla station will be removed, but the station will remain and be integrated into the new development. see components to be removed [[red)

https://ibb.co/d1GOCx

i like the after [[develop-able lots in yellow)
https://ibb.co/nhydUc
- expansion of 4th street plaza
- a 3rd st ped bridge connecting to riverwalk makes sense
- who owns the surface lot directly SW of JLA?
- demo'ing 6th st bridge = good
- 2nd st extension to make ring around cobo
- cobo expansion [[blue)