GerryMandering and Drainage

[O3H]

This should be outlawed/banished by The State of Michigan



Then people wonder why the Metro Detroit area has a Flooding Issue
-- nothing is planned on a REGIONAL level due to all the infighting



Ohhh let's ADD MORE stormwater to Warren via the I-75 Expansion
--- no one really knows how many Million gallons because its not measured....ha ha lol



And that's how things get slipped in without one hand knowing what the other hand is doing on the opposite side of town, since it's across the County Line........nice huh ?

Just happens to be UNfortunate for those poor bastards downstream on the Clinton
- once it crosses the """county line""" , Oakland is free and clear of the problem.
Until it all backs up at that PinchPoint confluence in Warren.......... like it did in 2014

[Lowell]

Welcome to DetroitYES. Your point is well taken and I would add that drainage is just another self-inflicted metropolitan wound brought by the lack of a united regional approach. The recent defeat of a regional mass transit system bears similarities.

The ridiculous gerrymandering of our state and federal districts is just another symptom of a "its not our problem" thinking that ultimately hurts everyone.

[Dino]

Maybe Mayor Fouts will get all of the mentally-challenged people in Warren to go to the flooded areas with buckets & snorkels.

[Bham1982]

They can build a "big beautiful wall" at the Oakland County border. And Oakland will pay for it. Problem solved.

[Scottathew]

Our current laws do not allow for the creation of storm water utilities, this should be changed. People should be charged for the storm water that they send to government owned systems.

Combined systems need to be replaced with separated systems.

Hopefully Lansing wakes up and makes some laws that help municipalities out.

[ABetterDetroit]

Welcome to DetroitYES. Your point is well taken and I would add that drainage is just another self-inflicted metropolitan wound brought by the lack of a united regional approach. The recent defeat of a regional mass transit system bears similarities.

The ridiculous gerrymandering of our state and federal districts is just another symptom of a "its not our problem" thinking that ultimately hurts everyone.

Drainage is not a rocket science problem. It is a basic infrastructure that requires capital improvements over time.

Niether the Democrats or Republicans have ever considered infrastructure a priority in their spending for a couple generations now, both have had what they consider far more important ideas on how to save or spend capital.

With the result of zero political will our infrastructure has started to collapse.

I find it humorous that NOW when it is crap across the board that both parties are pointing fingers claiming that this neglected problem is the others fault. Forever, neither of them gave a shit about it with the only exception being their own pet projects.

[Canadian Visitor]

Am I understanding that people in the Detroit area are still allowed to connect their downspouts to the sewer system?

Toronto made this against the law some years back, allowing only for exceptions where properties are so narrow, hardened [[no soil), or angled such that disconnection would be a hardship.

Today people's downspouts are used to water the lawn/garden, and/or go into a rain barrel to be used later for same.

[lpg]

Am I understanding that people in the Detroit area are still allowed to connect their downspouts to the sewer system?

Toronto made this against the law some years back, allowing only for exceptions where properties are so narrow, hardened [[no soil), or angled such that disconnection would be a hardship.

Today people's downspouts are used to water the lawn/garden, and/or go into a rain barrel to be used later for same.

Lincoln Park required downspouts to be disconnected in the 70's.

[EastsideAl]

OK, perhaps I'm slow today, but I'm still trying to figure out what purported gerrymandering of Congressional districts, or the fact that Warren is in Sandy Levin's district, and not Brenda Lawrence's or Dave Trott's, has to do with which way the water flows [[towards the lake? how dare it!).

If there is any political influence on drainage, and the funding of drainage improvements, I would think you cold look first at the resistance to effective regional planning and management that Lowell talks about [[with Macomb Co. being the most resistant). And now, of course, at the actions of Macomb's favorite "clean water? who needs that?" presidential candidate and his new-found buddies in Congress.

[Hermod]

Every place in the state of Michigan drains toward one of the coasts of the peninsula. If you are a coastal county, the interior counties will drain through you. Eons before there were Republicans in the state legislature, water moved through what is now Macomb County from what is now Oakland County. Southern Macomb County used to collect the water in a gigantic swamp. It was only the massive drainage structure built in the county that drained the swamp.

[ABetterDetroit]

Am I understanding that people in the Detroit area are still allowed to connect their downspouts to the sewer system?

Toronto made this against the law some years back, allowing only for exceptions where properties are so narrow, hardened [[no soil), or angled such that disconnection would be a hardship.

Today people's downspouts are used to water the lawn/garden, and/or go into a rain barrel to be used later for same.

It's against code to do that kind of thing now but unfortunately Detroit and all the older suburbs are terribly behind on separating storm run off from sanitary sewers.

Many decades where lost in addressing common sense upgrades so now the problems are just stacked up on each other. Lead water supply lines and system issues, drainage and sewers, bridges and roads, overhead electric grid and natural gas line failures.

There is a old saying that if you can't see it, it doesn't need fixing about underground construction and this state embraced that thinking and married it.

[O3H]

Let's say you bought a house - on the waters edge - by Lake St Clair - during a dry year like 2007. Then you get sludged/gooked/ by sewage overflow via ClintonRiver spillage into Harley Ensign Marina area in 2008, and again in 2011 [[really wet year) and then again in 2014. Your sea wall has a matt of nasty goo attached to it -- so your kids can't jump off it into the water. You have to extend your dock - out further and further - to keep boat in "clear" water.

LBrooksP and his stunt of creating the GWK Kuhn Retention Basin in Madison Heights for ""treatment"" of sewage, via a screen, and some bleach -- directly affects you - far away , at your Property in StClair Shores. LBrooksP comes out smelling like a rose to his constituents, why he quite literally, shits on your property. Your property value is affected by something ACROSS the county line, Dequindre Road.

So what do you do - you build a pool for your kids to swim in - while you pay high taxes for water front property - you can't truly use entirely ! LBrooksP smiles, while you got snookered for buying a house during - a dry year.

A quote , direct from LBrooksP himself, as he boasts of his achievment....

[O3H]

Plan on getting stuck again , sometime soon, in Warren, with water flowing over the top of your car. Whatever "plan" Warren comes up won't be ready and functioning in the near future. It's going to take awhile. Oakland County doesn't help the situation by maxing out the Red Run already a few times [[plural, multiple). Multiple bridges in Warren have had their decks kissed by rising water of the Red Run the past decade.

I wonder if General Motors Tech Center learned a lesson in 2014, shame on them if they lose precious equipment due to flooding a second time.
The founders wanted it built, on a stream, to make lakes, and ponds, and now that concept will bite them in the rear.

On December 13, 1944, Alfred P. Sloan, Charles Kettering and
the Board of Directors from General Motors chose a 326-acre site
of farmland in Warren, Michigan for the GM Tech Center.
Original designs involved a 22 acre lake that contained four islands
with 5 groups of connected buildings via the firm of Saarinen and Swanson.
Groundbreaking took place on October 23, 1945.

[O3H]

NOBODY should be surprised by water issues - it's been known for a century.
An old stream map, officially created, and well known among old timers.

[O3H]

Now add in the gerrymandering - it really destroys any chance of true representation.
There is zero unity, no united mass of anything, nothing REGIONAL about it.

[professorscott]

Welcome to DetroitYES. Your point is well taken and I would add that drainage is just another self-inflicted metropolitan wound brought by the lack of a united regional approach. The recent defeat of a regional mass transit system bears similarities.

The ridiculous gerrymandering of our state and federal districts is just another symptom of a "its not our problem" thinking that ultimately hurts everyone.

Well, heck, Lowell, let's point the finger where we ought to: the absolutely inane "home rule" provisions of the Michigan constitution. Any kind of attempt at regional planning ultimately fails because if Pleasant Ridge or Grosse Point Shores doesn't want to buy in, there is no way to force it. That one part of our governance model is the direct cause of a thousand really bad things.

[Hermod]

A lot of the "gerrymandering" has occurred in a more indirect way. Two cases in point are the Centerline-Warren and Rochester-Rochester Hills set ups. In both cases, settlements became villages in rural townships. The villages then wanted to be cities. The cities didn't want to absorb the townships, just the "tax productive" areas. To avoid being nibbled away at and being left with only the less desirable areas, the townships incorporated as cities [[which cannot be annexed). Troy did it differently, they were being annexed piecemeal by adjacent cities and incorporated as a city [[they don't have a city in the middle of a city). In the past, if the cities had been forbidden to do piecemeal annexations and been forced to take "all or none" we might have fewer small cities. Many incorporations have been defensive against hostile annexations.

[the rock]

Now add in the gerrymandering - it really destroys any chance of true representation.
There is zero unity, no united mass of anything, nothing REGIONAL about it.

You got that right

[the rock]

Now add in the gerrymandering - it really destroys any chance of true representation.
There is zero unity, no united mass of anything, nothing REGIONAL about it.

You got that right. Grosse Pointers have been saddled with 2 incompetent and ineffective representatives in Lansing for years- Banks in the House and Johnson in the Senate. Neither care about GP. At least Banks is gone [[ but plans to be back ). Hopefully Johnson will be gone soon.

[Wesley Mouch]

OK, perhaps I'm slow today, but I'm still trying to figure out what purported gerrymandering of Congressional districts, or the fact that Warren is in Sandy Levin's district, and not Brenda Lawrence's or Dave Trott's, has to do with which way the water flows [[towards the lake? how dare it!).

If there is any political influence on drainage, and the funding of drainage improvements, I would think you cold look first at the resistance to effective regional planning and management that Lowell talks about [[with Macomb Co. being the most resistant). And now, of course, at the actions of Macomb's favorite "clean water? who needs that?" presidential candidate and his new-found buddies in Congress.

I'm slow too. Not sure what political gerrymandering has to do with drainage -- even after re-reading thread. A simple argument, please?

Lowell is 100% right. Although I'll defend local control. But some things should be regionalized. And drainage is obvious. Uphill folks do need to pay downhill folks. [[Is this the prob? That OC is uphill, and Detroit/Warren DH? Not sure how the Pointes would factor into this conspiracy.

[GMan]

I'm slow too. Not sure what political gerrymandering has to do with drainage -- even after re-reading thread. A simple argument, please?

Lowell is 100% right. Although I'll defend local control. But some things should be regionalized. And drainage is obvious. Uphill folks do need to pay downhill folks. [[Is this the prob? That OC is uphill, and Detroit/Warren DH? Not sure how the Pointes would factor into this conspiracy.

Didn't we have this consolidation once under the Detroit Water and Sewage authority? Pipelines run from Port Huron to detroit for water supply and rivers drain to the DWS treatment plant for discharge.
At least those water sheds that flow south east.
I don't think that worked out too well under one authority.

Other than streamlining a government process and creating a larger taxation authority what would consolidation do?
If it's a great idea then shouldn't the state run it?

[Meddle]

A thought for discussion. Suppose, just suppose ....


Take Wayne county for example. I'm not sure how many state or federal districts there are or what the exact boundaries of each are, so I'll just make them up since this is a hypothetical question anyways.


Let's say there are five districts, Downriver, West Suburbs, Detroit w/o Woodward, Detroit e/o Woodward and East Suburbs.

Now, leave the number of elected reps, but eliminate the boundaries. Each rep's 'district' would be the entire county, overlapping with all of the other reps. The five top vote getters [[regardless of party) would be elected and would represent all of the population. Residents could go to any one of, or all five to discuss issues.

I can see some problems in metro areas, but maybe it would work better outstate?

[O3H]

People need to learn Geography a little bit better.
Sylvan Lake connects to Cass Lake which connects to Orchard Lake.

IF the stormwater - was not - mixed with SEWAGE - it could easily have been directed into the numerous lakes of Oakland County. It's a matter of N.I.M.B.Y.

Cass Lake is on the main branch of the Clinton River. Upstream from Cass Lake is 243-acre Loon Lake. Cass Lake also connects with 363-acre Elizabeth Lake. Downstream from Cass Lake is the 532-acre Sylvan Lake.

Let's be honest here - LBrooksP just didn't want to build a sewage treatment plant "anywhere" because he would crucified himself for the next election cycle. Count how many cities exist in Eastern Oakland County - then count the number of Waste Water Treatment Plants.



Lake StClair is basically at 574 ft above sea level.
A large portion of Eastern Oakland County is about 700 ft above sea level.
It's basically pretty darn flat, for natural gravity water drainage.

[O3H]

Formerly known as the Twelve Towns Drainage District,
GWK Retention Basin serves all or parts of 14 communities encompassing
an area of 24,500 acres upstream of the Red Run Drain.



South Oakland County Sewage District System [[SOCSDS -12Towns)

Sewage OVERFLOW happens often, frequently, numerous times,
involving Millions of gallons, sometimes Billions of gallons



MDEQ does not and can not "quickly" supply the public with info regarding CSO events as it has to cross the County line of communication divide [[Dequindre). Absolutely nothing is automated, there are very few measuring devices, and it basically comes down to a educated guess - on how many times [[multiple) the ""basin"" filled and released - all gravity driven - using weirs.

Add in a weekend, a holiday, etc. and it could [[and does) often take up to a week.

Kayak in sewage on the Clinton River, anyone, anyone ?
Hackel encourages water recreation on the Clinton River .....
What is the very first thing everyone wants to do after it stops raining
- and the sun comes out for a nice day - go the beach - recreate in the water ?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...unch/96328462/

https://www.patronicity.com/project/...river_access#/

Thanks LBrooksP - for mucking up Macomb - every times it rains

[O3H]

An extremely detailed view of where drains exist
- and a HUGE area where they don't - due to conglomeration via 12Towns

See for yourself via the USGS viewer

Please be patient, the link takes a few seconds to load [[lots of data)

http://bit.ly/2nY4NXh