F the city of Detroit Unions

[jt1]

Once again they are failing to give concession:
http://freep.com/article/20090819/NE...s-new-job-cuts

A few things jump out.
1. Do they realize that their contracts will be voided if the city goes bankrupt?
2. Do they realize that the city is to supply services, not jobs.
3. Do they realize that the services they provide are laughable at best.

This quote is really sad, “When you kill the services it has a trickle down effect,� Johnson said. “The people of Detroit are the ones who will suffer and even more will start to leave the city. There goes more of your tax base.�

If Thomas Johnson II, president of AFSCME Local 2920, really gave a damn about the city, residents and tax base he and his fellow leadership would hold the members accountable to perform their work, concern themselves with the needs of the citizens and the city.

I've had it with these worthless leeches that think the city owes them jobs and in turn they owe nobody any level of service.

Too bad I couldn't get out of work early to go mock the protesters for the shitty services they provide.

[croweblack]

jt1,

you do realize that in order for the city to go bankrupt, the unions have to act like this?

I think most sane people want the city to go bankrupt so all the crap and inefficiencies will be exposed[[just like the DPS).

and

an anti-union rant around here goes over about as well as a fart in church.

Most people think that that the guy with barely a high school education should be getting paid 18$ an hour to work for the water department[[ I use the word WORK very cautiously)

So I am very happy that the unions are run by complete and utter idiots.

[MCP-001]

Yeah, that'll win you over some converts, real quick!

[jt1]

jt1,

you do realize that in order for the city to go bankrupt, the unions have to act like this?

I think most sane people want the city to go bankrupt so all the crap and inefficiencies will be exposed[[just like the DPS)..

Very good point.

[jt1]

Yeah, that'll win you over some converts, real quick!

Not really looking for converts. Just venting about unions insiting on top dollar, large number of jobs while having no accountability to the citizens. Acting like they give a shit about the citizens or the services they provide is the biggest joke imaginable.

[MCP-001]

Not really looking for converts. Just venting about unions insiting on top dollar, large number of jobs while having no accountability to the citizens. Acting like they give a shit about the citizens or the services they provide is the biggest joke imaginable.

I don't disagree with what you said, just how things were said.

And I agree, having the City of Detroit going into receivership and an emergency financial manager appointed will do wonders to changing things around.

Just look at what Robert Bobb has done with the DPS...

[Patrick]

The union folks care about themselves. Imagine Detroit being like the Titanic when it was sinking. Everyone all frantic on the deck looking for anything to hold onto when it goes under. That is what the union folks are doing...watching out for themselves on a sinking ship.

[R8RBOB]

I'm going to flip this a bit so if anybody find fault with my words, try not to flame too much.....

Let's say once upon a time ago, these city workers were once Detroit residents that were paying income taxes to the city, property taxes and years ago the state threw out the requirement that if you were a city employee, you had to live in the city so a number of the city employees decided to leave, relocate to the suburbs and at the same time keep their jobs.

Not to say they are the reason the city is broke but the employees joining others leaving the city didn't help. Years later, with the tax base at a alltime low, these same employees are clueless as to why the city doesn't have the money to pay them.

When the Michigan Legislature voted to get rid of city reqirements laws and Engler signed into law, the cops, the firemen, the waterworks workers, the city hall workers couldn't wait to hit the border for life outside the city. I don't blame them for leaving but someone has to clue them in on how a city works.

[luckycar]

When I worked for the City of Ann Arbor,1980-2007,maybe 20 % of the city workers lived in the city.We made a good wage,we just couldn't afford to live in Ann Arbor.We did ,and they still do provide good value to the citizens,taxpayers.I worked at the wastewater treatment plant,not the nicest place when its 90+ outside,or -10.Our AFSCME local couldn't strike,nor threaten to.That was on page one of our contract.Of course I would have been under a court order to report to work due to the need to keep the public from getting sick.Detroits workers need to wise up.It took the UAW 20 years and tens of thousands of job losses to wake up.

[DetroitPlanner]

R8RBob, I am in 1,000 percent agreement. When the layoffs come, residency should be factored into the decision of who stays and who goes, after all, if the City forced the casinos and other economic generators to hire X percentages of Detroit workers, they should live by their own standard. Workers should not be sucking the City dry without contributing something in terms of taxes or vitality to the neighborhoods.

[mwilbert]

If workers in the city unions are not doing their jobs, shame on them, but their managers need to take some responsibility too. If you don't discipline people who aren't doing their jobs properly, then a lot of people will take advantage of you.

I have seen these types of disciplinary procedures in government, though not in Detroit specifically, and the ones I have seen are annoying but not impossible to navigate. Further, if the procedures are too difficult to follow [[which I doubt; painful isn't the same as impossible) then the rules need to be renegotiated.

In the end, the mismanagement of the city encompasses the mismanagement of the workforce and just blaming the unions doesn't accurately apportion the blame. Even so,the behavior of the union leaders would seem to indicate that they do not understand that the city is headed toward receivership, and how that is likely to affect their membership.

[lilpup]

Actually I think they do understand the city is in trouble. The issue is that they'll be treated more fairly by the courts than by corrupt, self-serving, money-sucking non-union city management.

The unions gave back during KK's administration, they've given back before and they're being asked to again, while there is little cost-cutting going on with others.

[Lowell]

There is plenty of blame to go around. The union workers could get paid minimum wage and the city would still be in the hole. The core problem is that the older inner cities are stuck caring for almost all the homeless, poor, disabled, felons and ex-felons in the metro who, in turn, cannot/do mpy pay taxes but cost taxes. Spread that burden evenly across the metro and Detroit would recover quickly.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Spread that burden evenly across the metro and Detroit would recover quickly."

LOL, that would be ww4.

[Lowell]

^Exactly. "Hit the Road for 8 Mile" was big hit. That other route is to subsidize the older intercities to the point of making them attractive. That would only be WW3.

[karl jr.]

1. Do they realize that their contracts will be voided if the city goes bankrupt?
2. Do they realize that the city is to supply services, not jobs.
3. Do they realize that the services they provide are laughable at best.

1. No we are all stupid fuckers!
2. No we are all totally incompetent, about as incompetent as Bing for putting the same financial people in charge that fucked things up to begin with.
3. About as laughable as the idiot citizens of Detroit who continuously elect people on name recognition and not on the basis that they just may know what the hell they are doing.

What part of the fact that if you got rid of all of us idiot civil servants and got people to do the job for free the deficit will still be there. Not do to my incompetence, but do to to the incompetent elected officials.

I and my wife have worked for the city for 26 years each and we both are on the layoff list, we both have done the best job possible with what we are given to work with. I live in the city and have done so for over 50 years.
I am tired of being told that my life has been a waste because I decided to make a career working for the city, I feel that way when you blame me for something I have not a damn thing to do with. When its all set and done I will tell you that I will be glad to pick up and move the hell away from Detroit. Then you can blame yourself.

[reddog289]

When I started going to this site I was a bit more optimistic about the future of the City of Detroit. Being a Union worker myself I work as hard if not harder then I did in the first 15 yrs of my working career as a Non -Union worker. Union workers are not all a bunch of Fucking Lazy Idiots. I went through this argument in my preinternet days at a bar filled with both union and non -union workers. The two involved were like family too me.It got so bad I puked . I saw both sides of the deal.The non-union side was represented by my cousin who attained his masters in Historic Preservation. The other my "little brother" a Ford Motor Co employee member of Local 345. The preservationalist was screaming at the Ford worker for being overpaid.Likewise the Union line worker screamed back "You got a worthless degree". Having seen the way Historic Preservation works around here and my 45 year old cousin who is still not really using his degreeand prettymuch unemployed for the last 4 yrs to boot. Makes me glad I didn't listen to his advice in career options for me when I lost my job 8 years ago.As for the Ford worker I shake my head at him also. He works and his job is safe for now But he blew his money and thats that.I do sense resentment toward union workers. I did at one time admire and resent them myself.My whole theory is that when people talkabout the "Good Old Days" the days they are reffering to are the ones were union membership was high and people were not leaving the city in carloads Many points have been made here. Including residing in Detroit if you work there. Unions practice 'Strength in Numbers" Well looks to me there was Strength in the numbers of workers who lived in the City who abided by the rules by living there.Throwing the unions out I would have to say that it is the 40 or so years of bad leaders and the voters who voted them in. That is the problem.

[lilpup]

To a certain extent one benefit of a residency rule would be that union workers and their voting strength in numbers would have a much more direct impact on city elections.

Union members not living in the city have pretty much ceded their right to bitch about who gets elected.

[jt1]

Being a Union worker myself I work as hard if not harder then I did in the first 15 yrs of my working career as a Non -Union worker.

Hate to be an ass but I question this statement. Either you have a strong work ethic or you don't. Becoming union doesn't flip a switch and turn people into better workers.

Union workers are not all a bunch of Fucking Lazy Idiots..

I agree. Many, if not most are hard workers and certainly not idiots. There are however 2 issues in play:

1. The union protects the weakest and underperforming which is unfortunate for the hard working ones.
2. The union is unwilling to allow job cuts when there are curretnly too many jobs. It is this stubborness that I have an issue with. If the union allowed the city to right size departments and eliminated only the weakest workers the city would save money and services would not decline much, if at all.

Blind protectionism and the incessant belief that the city should supply jobs not services is the problem [[and poor leadership/management by the city)

The unfortuante thing is that city union leadership is just as bad as city leadership. We can blame the citizens for voting in the stubborn ignorant crooks [[which we should and do). In the same vein we can blame the union rank and file for voting in their incompetent leadership that is more willing to help lead the city into bankruptcy than support the firing an underperforming worker or support head count reductions when they are called for.

There are many situations when the unions [[specifically the AFSCME) use 'solidarity' before logic. One that jumps out is the Greening of Detroit issue. The good union workers get a bad rap, just as the voters of the city that research and make the best choices get a bad rap.

[jt1]

What part of the fact that if you got rid of all of us idiot civil servants and got people to do the job for free the deficit will still be there. Not do to my incompetence, but do to to the incompetent elected officials.

First, I did not claim that all civil servants are idiots. Secondly I did not state that having too many jobs are the sole reason for the deficit. The fact of the matter incompetent leadership and unions that are more concerned about jobs than the good of the city [[such as supplying the best services at the best price) are both major reasons why the city is broke.

I and my wife have worked for the city for 26 years each and we both are on the layoff list, we both have done the best job possible with what we are given to work with. I live in the city and have done so for over 50 years.

That is unfortunate but it happens in every sector. The city shoudl not be a source of jobs but a source of services. In the 26 years that you have worked for the city how many services should have/could have or have been eleiminated? How many fewer citizens are there? The problem when discussing this with many union people is that look at how they perform in a vacuum. Economics and how a city should run should not do so. Beyond critical services [[Police, fire, who are understaffed) many of the other services should be cut. I wish it weren't the case but it is economic reality.

I am tired of being told that my life has been a waste because I decided to make a career working for the city, I

Where did I say that? But the issue with this statement is that you are showing your inability to discuss this rationally as you some how internalize the fact that there is no money/need for many jobs as disparaging your career. Private sector companies are laying off people left and right.

I feel that way when you blame me for something I have not a damn thing to do with. When its all set and done I will tell you that I will be glad to pick up and move the hell away from Detroit. Then you can blame yourself.

It is unfortunate that you and your wife probably have been major assets to the city. Finances, however should not be managed based upon emotion which is what you are asking to be done [[At least in my perception).

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence: If you move away [[ultimately costing additional union jobs) it will be my fault. Of course when you are happy to move the hell away from here you will still be happy to receive your pension check with no regard to the existing workers. It would have been easier for you to simply say 'Fuck you, I got mine' since it is clear your loyalty is to yourself [[as it should be), not your union brothers and sisters.

[jt1]

There is plenty of blame to go around. The union workers could get paid minimum wage and the city would still be in the hole. The core problem is that the older inner cities are stuck caring for almost all the homeless, poor, disabled, felons and ex-felons in the metro who, in turn, cannot/do mpy pay taxes but cost taxes. Spread that burden evenly across the metro and Detroit would recover quickly.

Agree 100%.

[R8RBOB]

To a certain extent one benefit of a residency rule would be that union workers and their voting strength in numbers would have a much more direct impact on city elections.

Union members not living in the city have pretty much ceded their right to bitch about who gets elected.

I agree. The 2005 mayoral election could had a different result had the residency rule was in place.

[Motor City Sam]

My guess would be that the financial mismangement of resources by City government, especially during eight years of Kilpatrick [[no bid contracts, sweetheart deals, payroll padding, and outright theft), share at least half of the blame with the City unions for the mess we are currently in.

[firstandten]

In this country unions traditionally have a confrontational relationship with management. In a growing economy this is not necessarly a bad thing, since the goal of management is to pay as little as possible for labor, but if the union can set a higher market for wages then the worker and the overall labor market benefits.

As a result you have that give and take and sometimes a strike or two as the two try to find common ground.

The problem we have is that we are not in a growing economy, companies and government entities don't have the money and its not a bluff.

This calls for more cooperation between the two forces and the culture between management and labor makes it difficult to do.

The union cries of getting rid of the fat doesn't quite work now like it did during better days when it was probably true.

Now with the threat of filing bankruptcy always in managements hip pocket. Unions will have to find a way to adjust their strategy or it will go out of business.

[kryptonite]

jt1, I agree with your comparison of good/bad unionized workers. We have a few union positions where I work. Some are very good workers but many suck. You see them sleeping on the job and what little work they do is half-assed. Our bathrooms are always dirty and poorly supplied, spills dry on the floors and stay for months. Our offices are never vacuumed, rather the employer cleans or replaces the carpets every five or so years. Many of them are also rude and foul-mouthed.

IMO, the problem is not the union's existence, rather that the unions defend the crap workers along with the dedicated workers. Why is the union's approach not to evaluate the worker and if it the worker is performing at a substandard level permit the company to warn, discipline,or terminate the worker who is just not doing their job. There has to be a long list of potentially good employees that would be happy to do a good job in exchange for the pay and benefits of a union position.

I have known many good union workers throughout my life and they are as disturbed by their non-performing cohorts as us non-unionized workers are.