Hudson's Site Building Thread

[313WX]

The very smaller makeshift theatres doesn't count.

What does this mean?

[stasu1213]

They're not building this glitzy generational landmark just to put some dumpy fast food chains in it.

The Ren Cen is mostly full of meat and potatoes things that are of practical convenience to the 10,000+ workers and visitors who are at the complex. I think even the better restaurants mainly serve the function as high end food courts [[nicer places for workers to eat or to meet with clients).

At Hudsons, Bedrock will be looking to anchor their downtown retail district, and to reinforce the prestige of the project with popular brands.


I don't know how much of a threat Hudsons really is to the Ren Cen. Hudsons will be a more prestigious landmark but I think the Ren Cen will remain more iconic and visitor-friendly. The Ren Cen isn't really competing for the same kind of office tenant, and the Marriot is only a 3 star hotel so I don't think they're really competing for the same guests either. I'm guessing the Ren Cen ultimately benefits, because "rising tides lift all boats".

The RenCen is not exactly tourist friendly as it has the potential to be. Many so called stores are closed on the weekends. There is nothing to do for tourist. The newly renovated lower level is a showcase for new cars, which is understandable being that they are trying to sell cars. However, there is nothing wrong with having a classic 57 Chevy on display or some classic GM Cars to be in the mix. When GM was on the Boulevard they had a few classic cars sprinkled throughout the lobby of the complex. This management company the GM uses only make the complex a total office building and just like every office building it is closed for business on weekends including anything for tourists to enjoy

[Atticus]

Book Tower has great potential but I see a boutique hotel opening in the Book Tower or it having apartment lofts like apartments which includes the fire escapes as some type of decks for the adjacent apartment lofts

With regards to the Book Building, I think it was announced or implied that the tower portion will be residential, and the attached block portion will be a hotel. That being the case, I am still thinking it will be a luxury hotel property to maximize the Tax Credit. There have been so many botique hotels opened recently [[which is great), and thus for another reason it would be nice to have some more diversity in hotel types downtown too.

[Jason]

That all being said, with the Hudson Tower hotel... I actually hope it is not just a high end brand [[Four Seasons, Ritz, Waldorf, etc.). Reason being is that there is now a market again for such a brand to exist in Downtown Detroit, but if built, the business case is not there for such a brand to have a large number of rooms. Basically there is a market for a 125~ room Ritz/Four Seasons/etc, but not for 500 rooms. Most luxurious hotels are small in room numbers anyway. I also expect one of those brands [[or similar) to eventually open up in the renovated Book Tower.

On the other hand, there is definitely a need and business case for another ~600 room 3/4-star hotel in downtown. [[I.e Hilton, Hyatt, JW Marriott, etc.). That is the hotel I hope goes in the Hudson Tower, or better yet paired with the luxury hotel described above. Simply put, I would like to see some height added to the skyline via the new tower, and a 600 room Hilton will result in a much taller Hudson tower than a 125 room Ritz Carlton. Hoping for height...

Yeah, I think I agree, I'd rather have a taller building and a denser development, than have the luxury brand. My guess is that Gilbert wants both and that that's what they're still trying to figure out.

The RenCen is not exactly tourist friendly as it has the potential to be. Many so called stores are closed on the weekends. There is nothing to do for tourist. The newly renovated lower level is a showcase for new cars, which is understandable being that they are trying to sell cars. However, there is nothing wrong with having a classic 57 Chevy on display or some classic GM Cars to be in the mix. When GM was on the Boulevard they had a few classic cars sprinkled throughout the lobby of the complex. This management company the GM uses only make the complex a total office building and just like every office building it is closed for business on weekends including anything for tourists to enjoy

The Ren Cen has big interesting public spaces. I think one of the main tests of how interesting a space is is how kids react in it, and I've been there with kids and they find it really fun to traverse and explore. The elevator ride tour is cool. And sometimes people just want to eat at Panera, and they can do that and watch some freighters go by. Being GM's HQ makes it a point of interest and the cars are fun. To me it gives off a very "cosmopolitan big city" vibe.

The Hudsons project doesn't have any public space in it at all. All you can do to engage with it is walk past it on the sidewalk and look up at the tower. They took out the interesting interior spaces and the observation deck a long time ago. It's not even going to have a cool lobby. And while the building is going to be tall and it might be nice looking, for 99% of people it's just going to be another downtown skyscraper, while the Ren Cen's arrangement of towers makes it more distinctive.

I do agree though that the Ren Cen is way below its peak potential right now.

[stasu1213]

I agree with the abundance of unused space that the Rencen has. I differ on it being child friendly due to the unused space that it has. The renovated lower level could use some creativity in being more functional. It's just an oversized showroom with big LED screens. Management should always have a few vintage or classic cars in display and changing cars every 3 months or so. New cars could still be there as well but visitors and tourist, who the Rencen is also trying to attract, don't car about looking at next Year's model. They could visit any showroom to see that.

[cmubryan]

When the The Ren Cen was built in the 70s it was designed to be an attraction that would lure visitors to the building and be a "city within a city." A movie theater, many high end stores and restaurants were not just established for the convenience of the office workers but also to attract people back downtown. The problem with this is it became an isolated self-contained island that did nothing to improve downtown and instead had the opposite effect by sucking a lot of the office tenants and hotel business out of their older 1920s buildings which led to higher vacancy, less street life, stores closing and abandoned buildings.

The Hudson's Tower will be much different as it will just add to and enhance the central Woodward corridor. The less self-contained the tower is, the better. A 300 room 4-5 star Hyatt, Four Seasons, JW, etc. would be perfect for this location along with a few flagship stores.

[Metro25]

It's not even going to have a cool lobby.

Where are you getting this from??

There will be plenty of interactivity since the whole thing will be lined in retail and likely a grocery store.

[EGrant]

Where are you getting this from??

There will be plenty of interactivity since the whole thing will be lined in retail and likely a grocery store.

I'd rather have ground floor retail than a near-empty lobby [[like the RenCen) any day.

[SammyS]

I'd rather have ground floor retail than a near-empty lobby [[like the RenCen) any day.

An Apple store, Tesla showroom and a few foodies should keep this foyer rockin

[Jason]

Where are you getting this from??

There will be plenty of interactivity since the whole thing will be lined in retail and likely a grocery store.

The diagrams show where the office entrance is going to be and based on that it's just going to be a small interior space [[presumably attractive but not notably so) that leads to the elevators. There's also no programming reason to have large spaces, like the Guardian which is a bank branch or the Fisher which is a shopping mall.

The building will be interactive in the urban sense, in that it will have an active street level, but it won't be interactive in the landmark sense. It's not like Rockefeller Center, where you can go ice skating, or go to the observation deck, or go to an NBC taping, or to radio city, and where the design and arrangement of the buildings is iconic. There you can experience things that are intrinsic to its landmarkness. Yes at Rockefeller Center you can go shopping, but the shopping part isn't what makes it a landmark experience, a store is a store. Like, have those buildings on Woodward now become landmarks because they have an H&M in them? Hudsons isn't really creating "place" in terms of a person's qualitative experience it's more like a tall urban infill project than a landmark. And that's all fine, it's just that it's not really competing in the "iconic Detroit landmark" category.

[Metro25]

Downtown already has tons of public spaces though. Our Rockefeller center is Campus Martius. We've also got Capital Park, Grand Circus park, Cadillac Square, etc.

I think you're nitpicking here. The building will undoubtedly be a landmark people will spend plenty of time around it especially with it's good urban design. We dont need another public indoor winter garden. One Campus Martius already has a massive lobby.

[Jason]

The topic came up because someone suggested that the Ren Cen would be threatened [["shaking in it’s boots anticipating the sucking sound that it will hear when businesses leave and go to the Hudson site") by the Hudsons project and my point was that the two aren't competing in the same categories, in terms of office hotel or landmark status.

I also agree that it doesn't need to have a public space. When there was that competition a few years ago a lot of entries tried to create a new public space, which I thought was silly because yeah there's like 6 parks within two blocks of the site. So I don't mind that it's not going down that route, although the observation deck would have been cool.

[stasu1213]

GM would have to cease just being an office complex for it’s workers only if it want to be part of the downtown scene. A new management team is needed. Classic cars sprinkled throughout the complex including the Winter Gardens and the Jefferson lobby would make it a destination for tourist and local visitors alike. The complex is terribly underutilized despite the recent renovations that were done to it in the past 5 years. The sucking sound will not be only caused by the Hudson’s development but the renovation of buildings in the immediate downtown area. Google Microsoft, and even Amazon had opened there offices in locations north of Jefferson and not in the RenCen. I had asked suggested to one of GM’s employees in the newly renovated lower level that they should put classic cars throughout the lower level and Jefferson foyer during the week or month of the Dream Cruise. His reply was “Our job is to sell cars that is why we have only new cars on display throughout the complex”. That attitude will cause the RenCen to continue to be an island off to itself

[angry_fred]

GM would have to cease just being an office complex for it’s workers only if it want to be part of the downtown scene. A new management team is needed. Classic cars sprinkled throughout the complex including the Winter Gardens and the Jefferson lobby would make it a destination for tourist and local visitors alike. The complex is terribly underutilized despite the recent renovations that were done to it in the past 5 years. The sucking sound will not be only caused by the Hudson’s development but the renovation of buildings in the immediate downtown area. Google Microsoft, and even Amazon had opened there offices in locations north of Jefferson and not in the RenCen. I had asked suggested to one of GM’s employees in the newly renovated lower level that they should put classic cars throughout the lower level and Jefferson foyer during the week or month of the Dream Cruise. His reply was “Our job is to sell cars that is why we have only new cars on display throughout the complex”. That attitude will cause the RenCen to continue to be an island off to itself

I disagree. An expansion of the streetscape around the rencens frontage on Jefferson would probably do the trick. If they do that, they can keep cars in the main lobby

[sirrealone]

His reply was “Our job is to sell cars that is why we have only new cars on display throughout the complex”.

That type of shortsightedness never goes away at GM. They never think that if they put classic cars, they'll get people that would never come in otherwise to look at them, and they'll then get exposed to the new cars as well.

[Scottathew]

GM does currently have many different generations of Corvette in the very center of the river-level. I've seen it draw quite a few folks when I go walking there at lunch time.

If they were to turn the entire place into a classic car mecca it could potentially draw a lot more visitors and promote their products.

[EGrant]

What are the odds the person commenting on all the Hudson's time lapses is just making stuff up? "I was told..." then offering some vague update like "the caissons went bad" or something has been "pushed back" with little additional detail. The comments getting stranger by the day.

[ILKSGAMI]

I have wondered that as well, I keep waiting for something they say to actually happen... But it keeps getting delayed or something

[Atticus]

I have wondered that as well, I keep waiting for something they say to actually happen... But it keeps getting delayed or something

Well, at some point [[probably in the not too distant future) they are going to finish the drilling of caissons. I haven’t bothered to count how many have actually been drilled & placed yet, but in watching the videos, there certainly have been a lot of them. Point being, they have been making slow progress on them, at a some point soon, they will all have been drilled and poured.

Then things will get interesting in seeing what their next steps are for the pit.

[ILKSGAMI]

Then things will get interesting in seeing what their next steps are for the pit.

Agreed. At one point I was going to try and count all the caissons installed, just to see what number they are at, but either way they most likely will be finishing up in the nearish future. Sometimes I just get that "are we there yet?" mentality and get a little impatient to see other progress other than caissons being installed haha [[which I do know is a very important part of the building, just not particularly exciting to watch).

[Gistok]

The planned total is 150 caissons for the block, and 18 for the tower.

[gumby]

The planned total is 150 caissons for the block, and 18 for the tower.

Any idea of how many are left to complete?

[EGrant]

Around 23 seconds into yesterday's video, you can see a crane place what appears to be the first "vertical" [[although subterranean) construction in the upper left corner.

https://youtu.be/MzvU8zfsRjw?t=23

[Scottathew]

Around 23 seconds into yesterday's video, you can see a crane place what appears to be the first "vertical" [[although subterranean) construction in the upper left corner.

https://youtu.be/MzvU8zfsRjw?t=23

VERY EXCITING. I viewed the site from One Campus Martius this morning. I noticed that a lot of the caissons now have metal rods sticking out of them. I don't fully understand what they're doing, but it appears to be the start of vertical construction.

[NSortzi]

It looks like a second piece of steel is put in place directly north of the first at the 2:54 mark.