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  1. #1251

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    Quote Originally Posted by stasu1213 View Post
    I still feel that there are factions warring behind the scenes over what this project should become. I thinkl that Gilbert. The Mayor, and maybe the contractors wanted or thought that this project was going to be one way but there's that element that want to keep Detroit a 5th rate city

    Or it could be that whole thing of meeting today’s demands while also building for future demand,priorities are going to be in flux just like the city.

    If the demand in the future is for downtown living space it would be kinda pointless to spend millions as hotel space that will have to be repurposed.

    There is a lot of land to cover and at the very top just a few with only so much money to fill needs and priorities.

    It is a highly speculative large project and I am thinking the people behind it kinda know what they are doing and are proceeding at a pace that insures that it remains viable and not end up as a folly.

    For all we know the funding may be as such that it would not have to depend on a hotel in order to survive,if its survival is based on needing the hotel and in the future,5-10-20 years down the road and the market does not support the hotel and it pulls out you are kinda stuck.

    Lots of money involved as a speculative project,sometimes slow and calculated is not considered a negative.
    Last edited by Richard; September-01-19 at 10:25 AM.

  2. #1252

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    Cleveland has a Ritz-Carlton, Metropolitan and Hyatt-Regency downtown so you can't blame Gilbert for thinking Detroit can support at least one luxury brand.

  3. #1253

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    ^ he is also invested heavily in Cleveland and I kinda think that those would be two cities that could be used as equal comparisons,not comparing Detroit to Houston or Minneapolis etc.

    He is the numbers guy so personally I kinda think he knows what he is doing.

    From a standpoint of looking from the outside in and if we are comparing cities,I see more smart growth happing in Detroit where as the other cities are building on current demand and not long term.

    That is what Detroit did in the past and did not prepare for the future,the real test will be when a recession hits,like they always have a habit of popping up.Sure things will slow down or even might come to a stall,but I have a tendency to think that Detroit is in a good spot to recover faster and have a lesser effect during.

    When it comes to hotel space,the elephant in the room is the amount of planned hotels for when the bridge is completed and what thier impact would be on downtown locations,I also believe that the fairgrounds plans also include new hotels.

    So even if the downtown could at this time support a luxury brand it is scary at my pay grade thinking if it could survive and what happens if it cannot.

    Thats kinda how I come up with the slow build out being more so based on a pay as you go in order to decrease debt load for when it comes online,worst case scenario it can hold its own and still compete.

    On a small scale comparison it would be kinda like me buying a house based solely expecting the tenants to pay the mortgage,if it sits empty for 6 months,I still have to cover the note or lose it.

  4. #1254

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ^ he is also invested heavily in Cleveland and I kinda think that those would be two cities that could be used as equal comparisons,not comparing Detroit to Houston or Minneapolis etc.
    Saying that Detroit is an equal comparison to a city 1/3 to half its size is absurd.

    That would be like comparing San Antonio with Dallas. Yeah, they're both in Texas and they both have basketball teams, but that's about as far as the similarities go.
    Last edited by 313WX; September-01-19 at 12:16 PM.

  5. #1255

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    Saying that Detroit is an equal comparison to a city 1/3 to half its size is absurd.

    That would be like comparing San Antonio with Dallas. Yeah, they're both in Texas and they both have basketball teams, but that's about as far as the similarities go.
    Size does not matter,it is two cities that were devastated in similar circumstances that are both in the process of rediscovering themselves.

    Minneapolis,Atlanta and other cities were in the same place 30 40 years ago so how can one use them as a comparison.

    Portland and the Texas,Arizona,Nashville etc cities used in comparison are benefiting from the massive influx and investment of people relocating from States such as California.

    Detroit and Cleveland are both cities that are reinventing themselves based solely on working with what they have without the added benefit of a massive population shift fueling it.

    That is the difference outside of the basic metrics that every city has as a base no matter what size they are.

    Outside of that set of basic metrics,Detroit is Detroit,she does not need to reinvent herself in anybody else’s image or by useing thier floorplan as a blueprint,she needs to reinvent herself in a way that works for her and her citizens.
    Last edited by Richard; September-01-19 at 12:30 PM.

  6. #1256

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    "Outside of that set of basic metrics,Detroit is Detroit,she does not need to reinvent herself in anybody else’s image or by useing thier floorplan as a blueprint,she needs to reinvent herself in a way that works for her and her citizens."
    I agree completely. No city on Earth has had a boom followed by such a suburbanization and globalization bust as massive as Detroit-proper. It's bones, character, chemistry and rebirth cannot be compared to any other place save for Cleveland, which is almost identical but half the size (city & metro).

    When you shake it out the cities of Rustbelt and the Northeast will always have more character and flavor than the Denvers, Charlottes, Phoenixes and Nashvilles of the world. I refer to those places as the "Johnny Come Lately Cities". Places that just 30 years ago may as well have been Albuquerque or Amarillo. They've since grown into giant, vanilla, flavorless blobs.

  7. #1257

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    Denver and Nashville are pretty great places to live, and Detroit could learn a lot from them, but to each their own.

  8. #1258

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGrant View Post
    Denver and Nashville are pretty great places to live, and Detroit could learn a lot from them, but to each their own.
    Personally never been to Denver but spent time near Nashville while in the military and agree that both seem to have retained thier identities so far.

    Also spent many years in Orlando that went in a short amount of time to mimicking a cookie cutter suburbs appeal.

    Thats why I moved,character gets lost in the process and it becomes a situation of just existing as a resident,which one can do anywhere.

    It was not my intent to thread jack or imply lessons cannot be learned more so apples to apples comparison.

    To me anyways I grew up outside of Minneapolis/St Paul and 59 years ago it was not a nice place to live inner city wise,just as Atlanta was not 40 years ago.

    They had a jump of those years over Detroit so it is hard to me to say as a detriment Detroit sucks because Minneapolis has this. Or insert any city here.

    It is not to say do not look at how things were implemented and thier success rate long term as it would apply to Detroit.

    That would be the distinct advantage that Detroit would have.

  9. #1259

    Default Pic from 9/1/19

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    Last edited by Traveler; September-01-19 at 08:34 PM.

  10. #1260

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGrant View Post
    Denver and Nashville are pretty great places to live, and Detroit could learn a lot from them, but to each their own.
    I've lived in all three. What could Detroit possibly learn from Denver and Nashville?

  11. #1261

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    Almost looks the same as it has for the past 6 months, except now they have multiple caissons drilled into the ground and hidden. Who gets that job of locating all of the caissons that have already been drilled and covered with dirt. Plus, that cannot be that easy of a job of locating them, clearing the dirt from a rebar cage without damaging it.

  12. #1262

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGrant View Post
    Denver and Nashville are pretty great places to live, and Detroit could learn a lot from them, but to each their own.
    You can learn something from anything.

    That doesn't mean two or more things are equally comparable.

    (although Denver's a much better comparison to Detroit than Cleveland).

  13. #1263

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeightonGeo View Post
    I've lived in all three. What could Detroit possibly learn from Denver and Nashville?
    To name a few things:

    *Regionalism

    *How to land a MLS team

    *How to not let NIMBYs who restrict housing supply overrun your city

    *Road maintenance

    *How to incorporate parking podiums into new construction high rises, maximizing land usage and building height.
    Last edited by 313WX; September-02-19 at 06:15 AM.

  14. #1264

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboat View Post
    Almost looks the same as it has for the past 6 months, except now they have multiple caissons drilled into the ground and hidden. Who gets that job of locating all of the caissons that have already been drilled and covered with dirt. Plus, that cannot be that easy of a job of locating them, clearing the dirt from a rebar cage without damaging it.
    Have you ever heard of MissDig? Every single caisson has been mapped out, as though on a blueprint. I highly doubt they would drill and forget.

  15. #1265

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboat View Post
    Almost looks the same as it has for the past 6 months, except now they have multiple caissons drilled into the ground and hidden. Who gets that job of locating all of the caissons that have already been drilled and covered with dirt. Plus, that cannot be that easy of a job of locating them, clearing the dirt from a rebar cage without damaging it.
    Have you ever heard of Miss Dig? Every single caisson has been mapped out, likely in rows and columns, as though on a blueprint. I highly doubt they would drill and forget.

  16. #1266

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    To name a few things:

    *How to not let NIMBYs who restrict housing supply overrun your city
    That is certainly a hot button issue in cities like Los Angeles, where single family zoning gets blamed for a range of perceived social ills. But, how is that an issue in Detroit? Depending on the source of information, roughly 20-25% of developable land in the city is vacant. It doesn't seem that NIMBY's could be a significant problem.

  17. #1267

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongGone06 View Post
    But, how is that an issue in Detroit?.
    I never said it was an issue now.

    But if Detroit has any aspirations to grow again, it certainly would become one and it should be taking notes from these other cities to avoid their mistakes
    Last edited by 313WX; September-02-19 at 04:51 PM.

  18. #1268

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    I never said it was an issue now.

    But if Detroit has any aspirations to grow again, it certainly would become one and it should be taken notes from these other cities to avoid their mistakes
    Not for nothing but if you follow pretty much everything that is happening in Detroit is following the today and future line of thought.

    Outside of the few that are bucking the system.

    Back to caissons,being close to the river,what is the water table like?

  19. #1269

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    Not sure about water table... but when they build Fort Ponchartrain back in 1701, the downtown part of the riverfront had the highest elevation of the entire riverfront in the city.

  20. #1270

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboat View Post
    Almost looks the same as it has for the past 6 months, except now they have multiple caissons drilled into the ground and hidden. Who gets that job of locating all of the caissons that have already been drilled and covered with dirt. Plus, that cannot be that easy of a job of locating them, clearing the dirt from a rebar cage without damaging it.
    The locations of the caissons are all predetermined. They’re not randomly placed. The workers know exactly where every single one is located.

  21. #1271

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    To name a few things:

    *Regionalism

    *How to land a MLS team

    *How to not let NIMBYs who restrict housing supply overrun your city

    *Road maintenance

    *How to incorporate parking podiums into new construction high rises, maximizing land usage and building height.
    I get all that. Sincerely.

    - Regionalism is easy when you have a tsunami of new residents every year and an existing population base that is originally from somewhere else.

    - MLS selection.. I would've loved to have seen Detroit land a team. But when it all shakes out who really cares? And is it really a measure of a city's legitimacy? Of course not.

    - NIMBY's are virtually non-existent in Detroit-proper. Especially considering the abundance of open land.

    - Road maintenance has almost nothing to do with the city if Detroit. What doesn't fall under the control of MDOT mostly resides with Wayne County. And however you measure it the ills on the Detroit area's roads stem from underinvestment by Lansing bureaucrats. And to be totally honest Denver's roads aren't exactly a panacea of smooth road surfaces.

    - Parking facilitation: Given Detroit's existing inventory of high-rise building I don't see what can be done around them. On high-rise developments currently in development I have no idea what sort of parking accommodations or coordination is happening.

  22. #1272

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeightonGeo View Post
    Road maintenance has almost nothing to do with the city if Detroit. What doesn't fall under the control of MDOT mostly resides with Wayne County. And however you measure it the ills on the Detroit area's roads stem from underinvestment by Lansing bureaucrats. And to be totally honest Denver's roads aren't exactly a panacea of smooth road surfaces.
    The city of Detroit is solely responsible for the maintenance of non-state highways in the city of Detroit. While you have a point about roads outside the city proper, what I said still stands.

    And while roads in snowy climates will never be perfect, at least Denver hasn't gained a notorious reputation for crappy roads. Detroit has, and for good reason(s).
    Last edited by 313WX; September-02-19 at 04:58 PM.

  23. #1273

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    I'm sure they know where the drilled caissons are located, but I was just wondering how or what machine do they use to uncover the caissons that have been covered with dirt. If they have 175 of them that cannot be that easy and would seem to be very labor intensive to uncover the dirt to continue construction.

  24. #1274

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    To name a few things:

    *How to land a MLS team

    *Road maintenance
    1) MLS is the equivalent of AA baseball, at best, on the world stage. It's where washed up stars go to play among guys not good enough for the majors. Not having a team is not loss.

    2) Denver and Nashville do not have the road destroying climate we have here. Yes the state is terrible about fixing roads but it's also a much bigger problem here than southern places. And, to be fair, the roads in Detroit proper have been improved more in the past 3-4 years than they were in the 20 before that in my observation.

  25. #1275

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    Quote Originally Posted by drjeff View Post
    2) Denver and Nashville do not have the road destroying climate we have here. Yes the state is terrible about fixing roads but it's also a much bigger problem here than southern places.
    Denver isn't "southern places." It averages nearly as much snow as Detroit and arguably has a worse freeze/thaw cycle.

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