Hudson's Site Building Thread

**Danny** · August-08-19, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by hybridy

Color me surprised

The pessimist inside thinks this is the beginning of the end. The shorter building will be built, but the tower won't happen.

How this will play out over 4-5 years:
- reduced activity on site - check
- delays announced - check
- scope reduced - check
- additional delay
- recession, quicken profits tank
- project on hold
- gilbert runs into additional health problems
- project shelved
- project cancelled

That means Gilbert will lose billions of dollars, lose his estate to liquidators and die penniless and Broke!

Not going to happen. He may lost the footage and at least he turn Detroit around.

I told him him not to think too big. Take slow steps. Bringing back regionalism to Detroit after 50 years of the urban dark ages take baby steps.

**Scottathew** · August-08-19, 09:23 AM

Hey folks, I've seen here and on Facebook a few things:

"They're just moving dirt around at the Hudson's site! They're not doing anything!"

Hogwash! Watch the daily videos. They've been making progress everyday, it's just that most of progress in 2019 has been made underground where you can see it.

"Things aren't going to happen because of Dan Gilbert's health!"

Hogwash! The Gilbert empire is capable of operating without Gilbert. Any existing things will continue to happen. Perhaps some large future investments\acquisitions might be delayed without his sign off, but Gilbert isn't needed for his machine to operate. I of course wish him well and think Detroit will do better with a healthy and active Gilbert. Any delays at Hudson or Monroe aren't due to Gilbert's health.

It is concerning to me that they're walking back the plans, as I really wanted to see a super-tall building. Gilbert's machine is really good at hype, and if they're generating anti-hype that does worry me that they're probably significantly scaling back from the peak-hype. However, they're still spending TONS of money drilling holes, putting in rebar, and pouring truck after truck of cement. If they had no intention of constructing the building they wouldn't be wasting money.

Also, Gilbert has spent a ton of money expanding the One Campus Martius [[Compuware) building. That project is ahead of schedule and may be occupied as soon as this year or early next.

Gilbert has done enough that I believe he's working in good faith. Z-Lot constructed with first floor retail. New data center constructed. First National building purchased, renovated, and fully occupied. Dime building renovated and fully occupied. Compuware building purchased, fully occupied, expanded. And so many other buildings have been purchased, renovated, and are fully occupied. There's been a ton of progress at the Hudson site. His promises haven't been empty. There's a lot of evidence that he's the real deal.

Let us just hope that the coming recession is delayed or not very bad.

**EGrant** · August-08-19, 10:18 AM

The people who claimed they were "moving dirt around" that are now celebrating the latest news as if it proves them right are just moving the goalposts. A building will go up on this site, even if it isn't 900+ feet.

However, credit where credit is due; stasu1213 did predict the building would be scaled down, as far as I can tell from this thread.

**Warrenite84** · August-08-19, 05:10 PM

I have to ask those who are in the construction business. Why wasn't Bedrock required to post a performance bond with blueprints requiring height, quality, and amenities when he was given the tax breaks? My understanding of a performance bond is that in order to receive a loan or tax break, a builder must post a bond that pays a third party to complete a project if builder #1 fails to follow through. Wouldn't that apply here?

**wazootyman** · August-08-19, 06:06 PM

I've been watching the HudsonSite Construction videos on a near-daily basis for some time now. I think some are too negative and feel a sense of validation when anything fulfilling their negative outlook shows a hint of coming true. This is a trend that seems to be getting worse over time, everywhere.

Progress is steady, though like most I wish it was going faster [[who doesn't want to see steel rise!?). Those are some pretty darn big holes they've been drilling the last few days. I'm not worried.

**bigboat** · August-09-19, 04:01 AM

All of the gun violence in Detroit and many other cities do affect the cities reputation. The tower was forecast to be a high rent building only, well, just maybe with some of the latest events in Detroit has somewhat deflated the demand for apartments, especially high rent ones. The beating and murder of that young man a couple of weeks ago certainly does not help. The Greek Town shootings are also a sad statistic. I love Detroit and have always wanted it to succeed.

**Gistok** · August-09-19, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

All of the gun violence in Detroit and many other cities do affect the cities reputation. The tower was forecast to be a high rent building only, well, just maybe with some of the latest events in Detroit has somewhat deflated the demand for apartments, especially high rent ones. The beating and murder of that young man a couple of weeks ago certainly does not help. The Greek Town shootings are also a sad statistic. I love Detroit and have always wanted it to succeed.

We've always had incidents... so that won't matter on the Hudson's height.... City Modern in Brush Park had one townhouse resell for $1.6 million. So no one has hit the panic button....

The Hudson's Tower depends in great part on the needs of the hotel that will be part of the tower.

**stasu1213** · August-09-19, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

Hey folks, I've seen here and on Facebook a few things:

"They're just moving dirt around at the Hudson's site! They're not doing anything!"

Hogwash! Watch the daily videos. They've been making progress everyday, it's just that most of progress in 2019 has been made underground where you can see it.

"Things aren't going to happen because of Dan Gilbert's health!"

Hogwash! The Gilbert empire is capable of operating without Gilbert. Any existing things will continue to happen. Perhaps some large future investments\acquisitions might be delayed without his sign off, but Gilbert isn't needed for his machine to operate. I of course wish him well and think Detroit will do better with a healthy and active Gilbert. Any delays at Hudson or Monroe aren't due to Gilbert's health.

It is concerning to me that they're walking back the plans, as I really wanted to see a super-tall building. Gilbert's machine is really good at hype, and if they're generating anti-hype that does worry me that they're probably significantly scaling back from the peak-hype. However, they're still spending TONS of money drilling holes, putting in rebar, and pouring truck after truck of cement. If they had no intention of constructing the building they wouldn't be wasting money.

Also, Gilbert has spent a ton of money expanding the One Campus Martius [[Compuware) building. That project is ahead of schedule and may be occupied as soon as this year or early next.

Gilbert has done enough that I believe he's working in good faith. Z-Lot constructed with first floor retail. New data center constructed. First National building purchased, renovated, and fully occupied. Dime building renovated and fully occupied. Compuware building purchased, fully occupied, expanded. And so many other buildings have been purchased, renovated, and are fully occupied. There's been a ton of progress at the Hudson site. His promises haven't been empty. There's a lot of evidence that he's the real deal.

Let us just hope that the coming recession is delayed or not very bad.

Recessions had prevented buildings taller than 700 feet from being built in Detroit in the past saving the RenCen

**Danny** · August-10-19, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

All of the gun violence in Detroit and many other cities do affect the cities reputation. The tower was forecast to be a high rent building only, well, just maybe with some of the latest events in Detroit has somewhat deflated the demand for apartments, especially high rent ones. The beating and murder of that young man a couple of weeks ago certainly does not help. The Greek Town shootings are also a sad statistic. I love Detroit and have always wanted it to succeed.

Detroit used to have a Purple Gang-Il Costa Nostra Mafia problem of the 1930s,Black gang problems of the 1970s, White Boy Rick/crack epidemic problem of the 1980s, Kwame Kilpatrick's Black Godfather problem of the 2000s, and every young black male thug for himself problem today.

But that's not going to stop Dan Gilbert and his gang from making Detroit great again. He's in command and control of Detroit regionalism. And had his clients ready to sweep poor folks under the rug.

**Danny** · August-10-19, 03:22 AM

What does Dan Gilbert think about crime in Detroit.

"Crime, what crime! I got my security team waiting for young thugs if they ever step into my properties."

**bust** · August-11-19, 01:33 PM

Count me among those still excited something will be built here that is attractively designed, sensibly open to the public via sidewalk access, and will deliver a variety of services that will contribute massively to local vibrancy-- regardless as to its height.

Less height will leave open more opportunities to activate sidewalks nearby.

Let's disregard vanity and especially [[and in this case, certainly) insecurity in urban design.

Beware when building height becomes like the length of your tie. A too-long-tie is almost always an inverse measure of you-know-what.

**Scottathew** · August-11-19, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by bust

Less height will leave open more opportunities to activate sidewalks nearby.

I don't really believe that less density will mean more "sidewalk activation". But I do agree that something great is on the horizon and I'm excited to see what it will be.

Also, I don't know if anyone else has this pet-peeve, but it just grinds me good when people say "activate"

**bust** · August-11-19, 03:51 PM

I think you misunderstand how "density" applies to urban planning.

A supertall building in a cornfield -- or in an any other area with little variety of services accessible to pedestrians -- is not dense. Lots of shorter buildings providing access to these services in close proximity is dense.

As per Jane Jacobs, even more true decades after she wrote it: dense low- and mid-rise neighborhoods like still exist in Philadelphia and New York are among our best, and Detroit's are among our worst.

It's our pedestrian experience on the sidewalk that matters most.

Many say New York's [[original) World Trade Center was so tall an elevator to the ground floor [[plus a walk across its plaza) took so long it was easier for workers to get lunch at an in-house cafeteria rather than venture outside. For as many thousand worked there, it did little to "activate" its neighborhood. Many say it had a negative effect.

We can see similar results from the Ren Cen.

The designs we've seen for the Hudson's tower have been much better, but let's make sure not to get carried away and neglect to learn from past mistakes.

Tall may end up being better than supertall. It certainly would be no shame.

**401don** · August-11-19, 04:49 PM

The tower portion of this building will be for residential and/or hotel and it's so narrrow [[basically just tall for design sake rather than need) that a couple of hundred feet extra won't have any effect in terms of street activation.

**stasu1213** · August-11-19, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by bust

I think you misunderstand how "density" applies to urban planning.

A supertall building in a cornfield -- or in an any other area with little variety of services accessible to pedestrians -- is not dense. Lots of shorter buildings providing access to these services in close proximity is dense.

As per Jane Jacobs, even more true decades after she wrote it: dense low- and mid-rise neighborhoods like still exist in Philadelphia and New York are among our best, and Detroit's are among our worst.

It's our pedestrian experience on the sidewalk that matters most.

Many say New York's [[original) World Trade Center was so tall an elevator to the ground floor [[plus a walk across its plaza) took so long it was easier for workers to get lunch at an in-house cafeteria rather than venture outside. For as many thousand worked there, it did little to "activate" its neighborhood. Many say it had a negative effect.

We can see similar results from the Ren Cen.

The designs we've seen for the Hudson's tower have been much better, but let's make sure not to get carried away and neglect to learn from past mistakes.

Tall may end up being better than supertall. It certainly would be no shame.

Unlike the Rencen the World Trade Center or twin towers were considered to be condemned before the 2001 attack due to asbestos that were sprayed on the beams in the buildings. To rid the buildings of asbestos were had cost in the billions but them standing would had cost just as much. I am disappointed the the 900ft tower was just a pipe dream but maybe the developers could concentrate on state of the art design instead of spending extra money on height. Hell; let's have twin towers that could be 3 to 400 feet each

**Gistok** · August-11-19, 07:43 PM

stasu1213... the reason a single taller tower would look better is that it would help balance out the Detroit skyline once a taller tower is complete. The current skyline is lopsided thanks to the Renaissance Center. A pair of 400 ft. towers would be hidden in the middle of downtown surrounded by taller Ally, Penobscot, Guardian, Book, Cadillac and Scott towers.

Even the Monroe tower if completed as planned, would only be about 550 ft. tall, dwarfed by the nearby 620ft. Ally Building.

**Scottathew** · August-11-19, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by bust

A supertall building in a cornfield -- or in an any other area with little variety of services accessible to pedestrians -- is not dense. Lots of shorter buildings providing access to these services in close proximity is dense.

Good points. I just got from Boston and I stayed in the North End neighborhood which consists of mostly 4-6 story buildings. It was extremely walkable and there was a ton of foot traffic. In fact, the streets were extremely narrow and it was easier to be a pedestrian.

If cutting down on the Hudson's height means investment in other areas, that's great.

**Dmberko11** · August-11-19, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

stasu1213... the reason a single taller tower would look better is that it would help balance out the Detroit skyline once a taller tower is complete. The current skyline is lopsided thanks to the Renaissance Center. A pair of 400 ft. towers would be hidden in the middle of downtown surrounded by taller Ally, Penobscot, Guardian, Book, Cadillac and Scott towers.

Even the Monroe tower if completed as planned, would only be about 550 ft. tall, dwarfed by the nearby 620ft. Ally Building.

Exactly. Someone gets it. I’m in favor of ANYTHING being built on Hudson’s but preferably something taller for the reasons Gistok stated. The skyline needs balance. Austin, where I live has two pretty tall towers, one on either side of the skyline. Detroit will actually look REALLY good with the blend of towers it has between the RenCen and the soon-to-be-built Hudson’s. I’m really excited. Hopefully it’s at least 700 feet.

**casscorridor** · August-12-19, 08:50 AM

It's fun to speculate but really we have no idea what will be built. The plans have changed on multiple occasions, and imo improving each time. If they can't find a hotel tenant, it makes sense to scale back. But somehow I think they will find a hotel. If the tower is 900ft or 700, I don't see how it matters much. How many of you actually go to Windsor on a regular basis? That's the only perspective where having a 900ft building in that spot would really make a huge difference. From most other vantage points, anything over 700ft will still look very prominent. And as others have said, it's not height that matters, but rather activating the area, which certainly will happen regardless of the final design, we can be sure of that.

**stasu1213** · August-12-19, 10:59 AM

Only in Detroit where the money is there to build a tower that stand at 900ft or over but not finding a tenant for the hotel ch singed the plans. You would think the planners had a hotel or two already wanted to rent space to before making plans and announcing that there will be a building on the sight taller than the Rencen

**ABetterDetroit** · August-12-19, 12:31 PM

Everywhere has Chicken Littles.

Metro Detroit just has a lot more of them as a statistical proportion of the population on account of the brain drain. That is why all those New York plates in town are a good thing.

**313WX** · August-12-19, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Everywhere has Chicken Littles.

Metro Detroit just has a lot more of them as a statistical proportion of the population on account of the brain drain. That is why all those New York plates in town are a good thing.

I always enjoy a good word salad every now and then.

**archfan** · August-13-19, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

...And as others have said, it's not height that matters, but rather activating the area

I'm going to resist making a 'things guys say' joke.

**stinkytofu** · August-13-19, 07:44 AM

It's becoming pretty apparent that a recession is likely imminent. This has been and/or will be impacting investments not just in Detroit, but across the country.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...ession-1657062

**stasu1213** · August-13-19, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

It's becoming pretty apparent that a recession is likely imminent. This has been and/or will be impacting investments not just in Detroit, but across the country.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...ession-1657062

I was wondering about the height of the building or tower being 900 feet in light of this upcoming recession. The Empire State Building was built during the great Depression and only had taken a year and a half to construct it. I don't know how much backing Gilbert has but I dont think that the tower would go no higher than 700 feet especially with the red tape that Detroit love to put in front of developers