Hudson's Site Building Thread

[EGrant]

Speaking of the top, I really hope they have an observation deck. I believe London has a law that any new high-rise construction must include a free observation deck at the top.

[mikeg19]

Speaking of the top, I really hope they have an observation deck. I believe London has a law that any new high-rise construction must include a free observation deck at the top.

I doubt it would be free here, but I second the observation deck. Considering none of our skyscrapers have one, it would be cool to be able to do that. Also a pretty decent cash flow coming from those things if you do it right. $5-$10 just to go to the top, then there's a store with merchandise, and now you've got the attractions incorporated like the Sears Tower or John Hancock building in Chicago.

[Hypestyles]

hmm. So what would residential rent be at this place-- $2500 minimum?

[Gsgeorge]

I have a feeling this design will change by the time they build. They could also do a surprise move and build a decorative spire at the top of the building to increase the height of the building and increase publicity around construction's completion. It would have to be an ornamental spire and not an antenna. Burj Khalifa, Chrysler Building, and other notable skyscrapers and supertalls have pulled this move at the end of construction to beat out their rivals locally and across the world.

This would be a great location for an Alamo Drafthouse-style movie theater with one or two screens, and food and beverage service.

I am posting the rest of the interior renderings so they're available for reference in the thread.

[emu steve]

hmm. So what would residential rent be at this place-- $2500 minimum?

Plus a few bucks for QL trip to Comerica for a Tigers game or LCA for Wings/Pistons.

For someone with the bucks, who happens to work downtown, and loves sports, Heaven On Earth.

[mikehamm45]

There was a time when i would have been thrilled that another skyscrapper was being built... now, I would have rather seen ten 75 million dollar investments build on top of the many parking lots that ruin our density.

There are already so many empty lots, buildings, and storefronts with the sign Bedrock for lease on them... other than the big chain store retail chains that do not seem interested in anything outside of sommerset/greatlakes/novi/etc i do not see anything being able to afford to move in such large spaces. Hopefully the Nike store and the upcoming UnderArmour store can spark some people traffic to motivate others to join.

Besides... while things have gotten a little bit better, there just really isnt a market to fill up downtown... Metro detroit peeps would rather spend time at the mall on the weekend or a big box.

Know the market... it really is retail driven here in metro detroit, museums and other cultural things are quite empty on the weekend. Was at the DIA this past Sunday. Amazed at how empty is was... only in Metro Detroit is a museum like this empty on a Sunday and the Mall is packed.

[Gsgeorge]

Besides... while things have gotten a little bit better, there just really isnt a market to fill up downtown... Metro detroit peeps would rather spend time at the mall on the weekend or a big box.

Not sure I really agree with that at all. I don't know too many young families that want to hang out at the mall all weekend. I see tons of families downtown enjoying our entertainment and amenities, and it seems like more and more kids and families every succeeding weekend. In fact, the last time I was at Somerset I noticed it was pretty light at some of the stores there. 90% of the guests are there for the Apple Store or Nordstrom.

[401don]

I do find it interesting that all this new construction is apts and not condos. Is it really that hard to get a mortgage with continued near record low interest rates? I understand about rehabs taking advantage of the 5 yr. tax credits before converting, but new construction? Here in the Toronto area, all highrises are condo. The buyers are either investors who rent them out, empty nesters or young people who borrow some of the down payment from parents. There's also a lot more young families downtown, but then schools are not so much an issue.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

401don, I am not sure about applicable laws in Detroit, but in many places rental apartments are built and rented out with the idea in place that if the market ever reaches a certain price point, the units could then be sold [[at the expiration of their leases). I don't think that building a rental building means that they can't be sold down the line, unless Detroit laws make it difficult. I know in NYC that the regulatory hurdles to do it can stretch on for decades. But most places aren't quite as onerous.

[ABetterDetroit]

I do find it interesting that all this new construction is apts and not condos. Is it really that hard to get a mortgage with continued near record low interest rates? I understand about rehabs taking advantage of the 5 yr. tax credits before converting, but new construction? Here in the Toronto area, all highrises are condo. The buyers are either investors who rent them out, empty nesters or young people who borrow some of the down payment from parents. There's also a lot more young families downtown, but then schools are not so much an issue.

You have to wonder if owner occupied housing has any real future in this state. Ironic because the largest percentage of people owning their own home in America was a large contributing factor to Detroit being one of the best cities ever half a century ago and now it seems as though nobody cares about that economy from both Lansing conservatives and Urban liberals.

I know enough skilled Michiganders working in the trades to have anything done on my home, the only problem is they live in Arizona, Florida or Colorado where the work is.

As you said interest rates really can't get significantly lower.

[Gsgeorge]

Interest rates are steadily climbing, they just went up before the end of the year, and it is not easy to get a mortgage in Detroit. The lenders seem to be a few years behind the trend. In the meantime the insurance companies / banks all consider Detroit as a whole. Same reason your car insurance is outrageously expensive, even if you live in a 'nice' neighborhood.

[Towne Cluber]

Not sure I really agree with that at all. I don't know too many young families that want to hang out at the mall all weekend. I see tons of families downtown enjoying our entertainment and amenities, and it seems like more and more kids and families every succeeding weekend. In fact, the last time I was at Somerset I noticed it was pretty light at some of the stores there. 90% of the guests are there for the Apple Store or Nordstrom.

There are definitely more and more families enjoying downtown but your Somerset claims are far-fetched. There's a ton of foot traffic at Macy's, the restaurants, the food court [[especially Chick-fil-A), Crate and Barrel, MAC, and Lululemon, among others. Likewise, the top malls [[and places such as Costco) are all quite busy on the weekends.

[canuck]

I like the atrium as a positive feature in the context of Detroit. A new stage for festivals and the fact that it is open to the street. A nice massive detail in a city with bitterly cold winters. Gilbert's contribution is at the very least a city building gesture in that sense.

In the best scenario; retail businesses would be encouraged by Gilbertville to develop along Woodward and the Podium wouldn't be a dedicated shopping mall that sucks up that potential. I hope the atrium becomes a civic forum with cultural displays and entertainment. The evocation of the interior is pretty well done and if the final project looks anything like it, I give it a thumbs up. I also like the fact that the project is central, as was Hudson's.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

I kinda hate to break it down in such simple terms....but I think it really comes down to the age old mantra..."If you build it they will come" and come and keep coming. Give it 10 years and the growth downtown will be unbelievable. This is just what the city and specifically the Hudson's site needed. On another note the street level design strongly resembles the public library in downtown Seattle.

[mikeg19]

There was a time when i would have been thrilled that another skyscrapper was being built... now, I would have rather seen ten 75 million dollar investments build on top of the many parking lots that ruin our density.

There are already so many empty lots, buildings, and storefronts with the sign Bedrock for lease on them... other than the big chain store retail chains that do not seem interested in anything outside of sommerset/greatlakes/novi/etc i do not see anything being able to afford to move in such large spaces. Hopefully the Nike store and the upcoming UnderArmour store can spark some people traffic to motivate others to join.

Besides... while things have gotten a little bit better, there just really isnt a market to fill up downtown... Metro detroit peeps would rather spend time at the mall on the weekend or a big box.

Know the market... it really is retail driven here in metro detroit, museums and other cultural things are quite empty on the weekend. Was at the DIA this past Sunday. Amazed at how empty is was... only in Metro Detroit is a museum like this empty on a Sunday and the Mall is packed.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

First, why the hell would you want terrible box/chain stores everywhere like the suburbs? I understand that they are part of the landscape and they will come, but give me a great retail experience like a Bonobos or John Varvatos any day over Kohls. It's a lot more interesting to walk down Woodward with dozens of unique boutiques than 5 chain stores.

Second, where the hell do you live that malls are packed? Unless it's an outdoor mall like Partridge Creek, indoor malls are dying. Nobody in the younger generation wants to step foot in those places.

Third, this past Sunday wasn't it like 70 degrees out? I was the first taste of decent weather in months around here and I would bet that most people were outside at a park, not inside at a museum or mall or Best Buy.

[Shai_Hulud]

There's a whole lot of extrapolation in this thread that I don't think makes sense.

Yes, there are people downtown on weekends and evenings and considering that number was zero within memory the increase is enormous. The raw number is most likely not. Yes, retail is shrinking but you can't tell by walking through Somerset or Twelve Oaks, even the second tier malls have plenty of foot traffic whether those people are buying or not.

Divide the hours spent in downtown Detroit by the hours spent at suburban malls, movies and restaurants and downtown might have a single digit percentage. Yes, downtowns are on the upswing but let's not act as if downtown Detroit has the entire metro area crawling all over it every weekend and evening. It does not.

Of course, if you're invested in downtown that's all scarcely relevant because to attract new residents and entertainment dollars you build whatever you think the market will support.

[dtowncitylover]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

First, why the hell would you want terrible box/chain stores everywhere like the suburbs? I understand that they are part of the landscape and they will come, but give me a great retail experience like a Bonobos or John Varvatos any day over Kohls. It's a lot more interesting to walk down Woodward with dozens of unique boutiques than 5 chain stores.

Second, where the hell do you live that malls are packed? Unless it's an outdoor mall like Partridge Creek, indoor malls are dying. Nobody in the younger generation wants to step foot in those places.

Third, this past Sunday wasn't it like 70 degrees out? I was the first taste of decent weather in months around here and I would bet that most people were outside at a park, not inside at a museum or mall or Best Buy.

I'll offer an opinion that's a mix. One, we do need chain stores as much as we need new stores and independent stores. Stores like a City Target offer up the diversity of essentials people need at a low cost that stores like CVS don't have and Amazon can't provide in a quicker time than 2 day shipping. As well, chain stores are recognizable to those visiting downtown. I don't think we need worry about Kohl's coming downtown, they are nearly exclusively a suburban development store. [[Though a Kohl's at Grand River and Greenfield would be neat to see...)

Secondly, and Bham wherever he is, will agree, that malls like Somerset are not dying. Eastland, Westland, yes but not Somerset. And people do go to the malls when its nice out because well it's nice out! I'm not driving in a foot of snow but it hits 50 degrees plus, heck yeah I'm doing all my errands and driving and go places.

What truly needs to change in this region and what I hope the streetcar and RefleX can bring as a test, is the idea that the car needs to stay home in order to go downtown. That's what brings urban pedestrian traffic. Not the singular use of cars, but the diversity of transportation options.

The empty storefronts are indeed waiting new tenets, but we have to remember this is still Detroit. The red tape is still there and while we have a business friendly mayor, retailers are going to take their time because they want to see how these pioneer retailers in downtown are going to play out. BUT, most people didn't think Bonobos was going to open this quickly either...

As for the Hudson Block development, I think it will be the anchor the downtown core needs desperately. I think this is ambitious and awesome, but even a development that half the size but still fills the entire block would be good too. The walk along that block is jarring.

[emu steve]

Will Detroit hit a 'holding pattern' around the Hudson site waiting to see what commercial establishments come to the Hudson's site?

If someone says Starbucks is coming to Hudsons, would I open a coffee shop in the next block? Probably not. It would be suicidal unless it was something completely different like Dunkin Donuts [[different strata; I prefer the buck fifty coffee. Do like Starbuck sweets, though.).

[southen]

Will Detroit hit a 'holding pattern' around the Hudson site waiting to see what commercial establishments come to the Hudson's site?

If someone says Starbucks is coming to Hudsons, would I open a coffee shop in the next block? Probably not. It would be suicidal unless it was something completely different like Dunkin Donuts [[different strata; I prefer the buck fifty coffee. Do like Starbuck sweets, though.).

Most of the spots are outright owned by Bedrock or they are the leasing agent, so I don't think you'll see any conflicts like that.

[DetBill]

There was a time when i would have been thrilled that another skyscrapper was being built... now, I would have rather seen ten 75 million dollar investments build on top of the many parking lots that ruin our density.

There are already so many empty lots, buildings, and storefronts with the sign Bedrock for lease on them... other than the big chain store retail chains that do not seem interested in anything outside of sommerset/greatlakes/novi/etc i do not see anything being able to afford to move in such large spaces. Hopefully the Nike store and the upcoming UnderArmour store can spark some people traffic to motivate others to join.

Besides... while things have gotten a little bit better, there just really isnt a market to fill up downtown... Metro detroit peeps would rather spend time at the mall on the weekend or a big box.

Know the market... it really is retail driven here in metro detroit, museums and other cultural things are quite empty on the weekend. Was at the DIA this past Sunday. Amazed at how empty is was... only in Metro Detroit is a museum like this empty on a Sunday and the Mall is packed.

Mike, I dont know if you just hit a quiet day but wouldnt be too worried about DIA attendance. Im there often and its generally very well attended. A friend in management there said its drawing very well this and the last couple of years. Friday nights also are a huge success.

[bust]

I'll offer an opinion that's a mix. One, we do need chain stores as much as we need new stores and independent stores. Stores like a City Target offer up the diversity of essentials people need at a low cost that stores like CVS don't have and Amazon can't provide in a quicker time than 2 day shipping. As well, chain stores are recognizable to those visiting downtown. I don't think we need worry about Kohl's coming downtown, they are nearly exclusively a suburban development store. [[Though a Kohl's at Grand River and Greenfield would be neat to see...)

Secondly, and Bham wherever he is, will agree, that malls like Somerset are not dying. Eastland, Westland, yes but not Somerset. And people do go to the malls when its nice out because well it's nice out! I'm not driving in a foot of snow but it hits 50 degrees plus, heck yeah I'm doing all my errands and driving and go places.

What truly needs to change in this region and what I hope the streetcar and RefleX can bring as a test, is the idea that the car needs to stay home in order to go downtown. That's what brings urban pedestrian traffic. Not the singular use of cars, but the diversity of transportation options.

The empty storefronts are indeed waiting new tenets, but we have to remember this is still Detroit. The red tape is still there and while we have a business friendly mayor, retailers are going to take their time because they want to see how these pioneer retailers in downtown are going to play out. BUT, most people didn't think Bonobos was going to open this quickly either...

As for the Hudson Block development, I think it will be the anchor the downtown core needs desperately. I think this is ambitious and awesome, but even a development that half the size but still fills the entire block would be good too. The walk along that block is jarring.

I agree with everything you wrote with one difference: I think a development half as tall that fills the entire block would probably be much better.

Some people get excited by tall buildings, but haven't we learned anything from the Ren Cen? For many it would feel good for it to no longer be Detroit's tallest building. But let's not repeat its mistakes. The proposed design improves upon it, greatly. It doesn't repeat all of them. But let's not flood the market with too much square footage like the Ren Cen did. Now, like in the late 70's, Detroit has no shortage of unused and underused real estate. Let's build something great that leaves open today's opportunities to develop and refurbish more of downtown, horizontally. A project too large could suck those opportunities dry. There are too many dead zones downtown for an egotistical exclamation point. For all the reasons Junjie said, and others, I think tax credits for a project like this one make a lot more sense than for a sports arena. But if too many tax credits result in a building misguidedly too big then then let's not shoot ourselves in the foot twice.

I wish this project fantastic success. But not at the expense of the rest of Detroit.

[southen]

The office portion of the development is rather modest. If what DG says is true regarding the need for space, and I think it is based on his shuffling of employees for Microsoft, you'll see this space filled and the need for more will still exist. What I'm worried about is filling 250 high end apartments.

[dtowncitylover]

I agree with everything you wrote with one difference: I think a development half as tall that fills the entire block would probably be much better.

Some people get excited by tall buildings, but haven't we learned anything from the Ren Cen? For many it would feel good for it to no longer be Detroit's tallest building. But let's not repeat its mistakes. The proposed design improves upon it, greatly. It doesn't repeat all of them. But let's not flood the market with too much square footage like the Ren Cen did. Now, like in the late 70's, Detroit has no shortage of unused and underused real estate. Let's build something great that leaves open today's opportunities to develop and refurbish more of downtown, horizontally. A project too large could suck those opportunities dry. There are too many dead zones downtown for an egotistical exclamation point. For all the reasons Junjie said, and others, I think tax credits for a project like this one make a lot more sense than for a sports arena. But if too many tax credits result in a building misguidedly too big then then let's not shoot ourselves in the foot twice.

I wish this project fantastic success. But not at the expense of the rest of Detroit.

But the RenCen was built outside the downtown core in a very suburban way of development, ie parking deck and those damn buttresses that made it near impossible to enter from Jefferson. As well the inside, though a "mall", was, and still is, confusing for many to navigate. This Hudson development seems to be almost exactly opposite from any of that.

As been said this also includes a housing component which makes a huge difference. So this probably won't have nearly the amount of office footage that the RenCen has.

[emu steve]

The office portion of the development is rather modest. If what DG says is true regarding the need for space, and I think it is based on his shuffling of employees for Microsoft, you'll see this space filled and the need for more will still exist. What I'm worried about is filling 250 high end apartments.

At some point those with $ will decide [[with their wallets) whether to live at other high end rental or at the Hudsons site.

Would an affluent renter rather live at the Book Cadillac, kind of out of the way, or right on Woodward in a brand new, exciting building/tower??

For me it would be a no brainer.

[Jason]

I think there's a lot of people who would like to live downtown and that 250 of them have money. It has the potential to be the only true luxury residential building downtown.

imo the residential units at the Book Cadillac aren't actually very nice. It's like they were an afterthought. A lot of spaces that don't make much sense, a lot of bad detailing, and a lot of thoughtlessness and cheapness, with a few really expensive looking features added in. Like a McMansion or something. It's shocking to me that they were asking so much money for such mediocre units. Unless they were counting on the condo owners to renovate.