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  1. #1101

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMichigan View Post
    Hudson's site tower may not be the city's tallest after all, Bedrock says

    https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ng/1943037001/
    Color me surprised

    The pessimist inside thinks this is the beginning of the end. The shorter building will be built, but the tower won't happen.

    How this will play out over 4-5 years:
    - reduced activity on site - check
    - delays announced - check
    - scope reduced - check
    - additional delay
    - recession, quicken profits tank
    - project on hold
    - gilbert runs into additional health problems
    - project shelved
    - project cancelled
    Last edited by hybridy; August-07-19 at 11:29 AM.

  2. #1102

    Default

    "Until we settle with an (hotel) operator, it's just going to be really difficult to project what that final height's going to be."

    One possible interpretation of that quote is "we wanted to build a hotel of ____ size but no hotel operators think there's a market for a hotel that size".

    Bummer about the observation deck being axed.

  3. #1103

    Default

    With the extra critical mass of the full Ren Cen development, it's not hard to imagine the Ren Cen today being a proper urban mall.

    The temporary SEMTA commuter rail station could have been permanently built and connected to the Ren Cen. The reconstructed tunnel plaza (although these are early models, the final drawings of the full version don't incorporate the tunnel) could have been done in such a way to make the tunnel bus more pleasant and more popular. The People Mover did get built. The streamlined road network could have been used to make a bus depot. Even without SEMTA's light rail (that would have had a station on Jefferson in front of the Ren Cen), it would have been a transit hub.


    I don't know what happened to make the plans fall apart. I'm not aware of any detailed written history. The residential portion WAS built, just in the form of Riverfront Towers (Alfred Taubman and Max Fisher). 500 and 600 were built right after, and parking was built, but not in the form of the original podium.

    I'd still like to someday see the parking garages demolished, and the Ren Cen extended, using the extensions to integrate better with Hart Plaza and Rivertown.

  4. #1104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by detmsp View Post
    "Until we settle with an (hotel) operator, it's just going to be really difficult to project what that final height's going to be."

    One possible interpretation of that quote is "we wanted to build a hotel of ____ size but no hotel operators think there's a market for a hotel that size".

    Bummer about the observation deck being axed.
    If I remember correctly, the leaked floor plan document showed the proposed observation deck floor(s) having an abnormally tall height.... as in, the observation deck alone contributed significantly to the tower’s height. So my recollection is that even if everything else in that plan was built (just without the observation deck floors), the height of the tower would drop to the low 800’s.

    The remaining float is probably contingent on how many floors of hotel space is built. I am sure Bedrock could easily find a hotel operator to open a 150-250 room hotel. The question is if they can find a hotel operator who thinks the market is there for a 400-800 room operation. That is probably going to determine whether this thing ends up in the 650-700’ range, or 800’.

    Sadly, I am guessing any hope of a 900’ height disappeared with the observation deck. Bummer, because Detroit could desperately use a structure in that range for marketing itself as the comeback city it hopes to be.

  5. #1105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMichigan View Post
    Hudson's site tower may not be the city's tallest after all, Bedrock says

    https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ng/1943037001/
    ...beat me to it!! All depends on programming and IF they can get the hotel operator they want. Still will be a tall building but maybe not over 900 feet. Which is still okay. Hopefully it won’t delay construction. Personally I don’t mind if it’s not the city’s tallest. The latest rendering is nice and as long as it has maintains the same architectural tapering tower aspects the final height isn’t a biggie. At least 700 feet would be nice though

  6. #1106

    Default

    Asked if the tower portion of the project, at one point projected to rise about 100 feet taller than the Renaissance Center, may be only half as tall as earlier projected, Guziewicz said, "It's a tough question to answer. Do I think it's going to be half the size? My gut reaction is probably not. Is it going to be the tallest building? Possibly. ... Until we settle with an (hotel) operator, it's just going to be really difficult to project what that final height's going to be."

    So, in other words, the final height could be anywhere from 450 feet (unlikely he says) to 912 feet (possibly he says).

    Probably somewhere between 700-800 feet when it's all said and done.

  7. #1107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMichigan View Post
    Hudson's site tower may not be the city's tallest after all, Bedrock says

    https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ng/1943037001/
    Only in Detroit...

  8. #1108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hybridy View Post
    Color me surprised

    The pessimist inside thinks this is the beginning of the end. The shorter building will be built, but the tower won't happen.

    How this will play out over 4-5 years:
    - reduced activity on site - check
    - delays announced - check
    - scope reduced - check
    - additional delay
    - recession, quicken profits tank
    - project on hold
    - gilbert runs into additional health problems
    - project shelved
    - project cancelled
    Given that the same song has been played many times in Detroit with these developments, your prediction is probably more realistic than you would think or admit to.
    Last edited by 313WX; August-07-19 at 01:39 PM.

  9. #1109

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    Not surprising, the very slow progress and lack of continued hype by Bedrock told one something was up. I just wish these detroit developers would stop getting everybody so excited at first and just talk about the realities of what they are going to build, its happens constantly in Detroit, Never seen a city with such a history of this behavior when developing.

  10. #1110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DetBill View Post
    I just wish these detroit developers would stop getting everybody so excited at first and just talk about the realities of what they are going to build, its happens constantly in Detroit, Never seen a city with such a history of this behavior when developing.
    Build public consensus that’s why. How else would’ve Dan gotten his Transformational Brownfield handout? This was all to play the greater public - reduce backlash. Fleece the sheeple. It's the First Play in the Ilitch handbook.

    If you recall, Bedrock wouldn't want another PR backlash on their hands:
    Last edited by hybridy; August-07-19 at 03:14 PM.

  11. #1111

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    I love how some idiots on here are bitching about Gilbert using tax credits on here.

  12. #1112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven&wyo View Post
    I love how some idiots on here are bitching about Gilbert using tax credits on here.
    iGnOrAnCe Is BlIsS - Be sure to back up your rebuttal with sources and facts.

    https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/h...nt?oid=5981552

    http://mcfn.org/node/6463/during-bus...-checks-arrive

    https://www.michigancapitolconfident...mplete-failure

    https://theweek.com/articles/692770/...ts-renaissance

    https://deadspin.com/dan-gilbert-bac...cke-1786813314

    https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ives/98816516/

    https://www.theurbanpolitico.com/201...-gilberts.html

    https://www.mlive.com/news/2017/05/h...rmational.html

    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...uit/102402284/

    Silly me. I forgot that I have piles of cash that I got with the help of taxpayer funds to renovate some buildings downtown cause i put sand on campus maritus and sling $20 drinks to my own employees - who I charge $160+/month to park in my parking decks. I then took that cash and lined the pockets of politicians to pass favorable legislation to give me more money to expand my empire, but there are artsy alleys and trees. I patrol and surveil all of this with my dedicated gestapo. It's aUtHeNtIc UtOpIa. But I'm a great guy. Hey I took all my minons to a Tiger's Game and provide lots of call center jobs to detroit folks in Southfield. I even put lots of Home Depot finishes in a pile of houses in Land Block houses - which is it's own dumpster fire. Keep your head in the sand though. We have scooters now. Infrastructure improvement and public education are dumb things to invest in. We've got luxury high rise dorms and food halls to worry about. Please pass me the kool-aid.
    Last edited by hybridy; August-07-19 at 04:11 PM.

  13. #1113

    Default

    What prompted the "half the height" conversation? Because it seems like someone asked a very leading question to the contractor (?) who can't give a definite answer on anything height-related.

    Contractor: "Do I think it's going to be half the size? My gut reaction is probably not. Is it going to be the tallest building? Possibly."

    That just seems like a guy who doesn't want to go on record with a concrete answer, no pun intended. I don't understand why they'd even have a press event with that lack of information.

  14. #1114

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EGrant View Post
    What prompted the "half the height" conversation? Because it seems like someone asked a very leading question to the contractor (?) who can't give a definite answer on anything height-related.

    Contractor: "Do I think it's going to be half the size? My gut reaction is probably not. Is it going to be the tallest building? Possibly."

    That just seems like a guy who doesn't want to go on record with a concrete answer, no pun intended. I don't understand why they'd even have a press event with that lack of information.
    I thought the same thing. Why hold a press event and then have a Q&A where you don't really have any answers other than speculation and guessing? Maybe do the tour and answer questions about stuff you do know an answer to.

  15. #1115

    Default

    Look I don't like giving billionaires tax breaks either, but acting as if what Gilbert's done is wrong in some way is pathetic. I'm well aware we, as a fucking society, give the wealthy too much and hope that in the next election cycle we see real change, bit all it took for people on this forum(and other places) to bitch at Gilbert as if what he's done is miniscule by slightly shortening a massive building is just hypocritical and hyperbolic. Everything you're throwing at me are societal problems that effect every American everywhere, of course we should invest in schools and infrastructure but last I checked those things are fucked in every state and city. The top1% should be paying more and I think they will be in the coming years as the country is becoming more progressive, but let's have a little perspective next time.

  16. #1116

    Default

    I love how some idiots on here are bitching about Gilbert using tax credits on here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seven&wyo View Post
    Look I don't like giving billionaires tax breaks either
    Okay, so we're both idiots?

  17. #1117

    Default

    Good one, really got me there....

  18. #1118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven&wyo View Post
    of course we should invest in schools and infrastructure but last I checked those things are fucked in every state and city
    The false dilemma fallacy is often a manipulative tool designed to polarize the audience, heroicizing one side and demonizing the other. It’s common in political discourse as a way of strong-arming the public into supporting controversial legislation or policies. Education and infrastructure are scorched earth so we should try some more trickle down wealth redistribution.

    Any other personal insults you care to throw? Perhaps laden with cursing for added effect.

  19. #1119

    Default

    I never said I was in favor of a trickle down economy I know it doesn't work. I don't think I ever personally insulted you either and as for the swearing thing just get over it. My main point is that I've seen people down play what Gilbert's done downtown all because he 'may' be shortening a building a little and got a tax break. That's it I'm done with this go ahead and have the last word.

  20. #1120

    Default

    From the original discussion by the dailies... there were going to be 2 hotels in the tower and residential, totaling 58 stories. Has any high rise ever contained 2 hotels?

    Also... I'm not so much worried about the tower as I am the block. There sure is a lot of "event" space planned for the block... what exactly is event space? Is it something that people might go visit once and then not go again... sorta like it was with Trappers Alley in its' heyday?

    I can understand retail and office space in that building... but it's all this "event" space that has me worried...

  21. #1121

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gistok View Post
    Has any high rise ever contained 2 hotels?
    The Ritz and JW Marriot share a building in downtown LA. They share a lobby and elevator banks.

  22. #1122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gistok View Post
    Has any high rise ever contained 2 hotels?
    It depends on how you define "high rise."

    A dual-brand Embassy (it will be the 2nd largest in the world behind the one in Niagara Falls, just 7 rooms fewer) and 1 Hotel is under constuction in Nashville. The adjoined buildings will be 17 and 30 stories respectively.

    A Marriott Tri-Brand Hotel (AC, Residence Inn and Springhill Suites) that's 21 stories was also just completed in Nashville.
    Last edited by 313WX; August-08-19 at 02:13 AM.

  23. #1123

    Default

    I had told everyone that it wasn't going to be 900ft tall. Gilbert may have all the money and backing but there are probably those elements from those on council to anyone in city government who go behind the scenes and somehow discourage developers from seeking interest on investing in Detroit. There are those who want Detroit to stay the same. I am surprised that H&M were even allowed to open in downtown Detroit while Restoration Hardware and other franchise retailers were discouraged. The same element are still working behind the scene to make sure Detroit doesn't make even a 180 degrees of improvement. Me and other so called naysayers are not paranoid or crazy. We or I just study the patterns

  24. #1124

    Default

    Don't shortchange yourself stasu.... you are too crazy! We're gonna nickname you Gannon Jr.

    My brother-in-law used to report directly to Mike Duggan at DMC, and if anyone gets in Duggan's way... they won't be around long. Duggan is an SOB that will give the boot to anyone that goes against his agenda. He instilled the fear of God into his subordinates at DMC, and will not hesitate to do so at City Hall.

  25. #1125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    With the extra critical mass of the full Ren Cen development, it's not hard to imagine the Ren Cen today being a proper urban mall.

    The temporary SEMTA commuter rail station could have been permanently built and connected to the Ren Cen. The reconstructed tunnel plaza (although these are early models, the final drawings of the full version don't incorporate the tunnel) could have been done in such a way to make the tunnel bus more pleasant and more popular. The People Mover did get built. The streamlined road network could have been used to make a bus depot. Even without SEMTA's light rail (that would have had a station on Jefferson in front of the Ren Cen), it would have been a transit hub.


    I don't know what happened to make the plans fall apart. I'm not aware of any detailed written history. The residential portion WAS built, just in the form of Riverfront Towers (Alfred Taubman and Max Fisher). 500 and 600 were built right after, and parking was built, but not in the form of the original podium.

    I'd still like to someday see the parking garages demolished, and the Ren Cen extended, using the extensions to integrate better with Hart Plaza and Rivertown.
    The original plans for the Rencen and other developments were designed before the Young administration was in place. I loved the man but a lot of things had changed under him and his gruff demeanor was good for some things but isolated Detroit from other great possibilities

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