Hudson's Site Building Thread

[DetBill]

Interesting, was walking around the backside of the project and they have taken down some of the big architectural drawings, advertising and picture boards of the grand building and just erected black material surrounding the site,. So, so much for the latest conception of the building..Im just hoping it doesn't end up being a 10 story square building. So much money was spend on architectural firms from NYC , publicity presentations and hype , as well as material public grant incentives granted [[ do they still qualify for them, now that they are changing everything ? ) , the whole situation is very puzzling, after all these years of working hard to “ get it right “. It sounds like bedrock doesn't even know the purpose of the building.. Keeping fingers crossed it at least results in a decent facility...We have been carrying on about this for 5 years now. Most cities have these type of buildings up and running in that time frame. Bedrock has done some marvelous things downtown and needs to be congratulated for this, but this project seems to lack credible direction at this time.

[Seven&wyo]

It seems like the creative aspect of the building was in that main "block" portion and the tower just looks like a generic tower imo. I'm sure it will be tall, but definitely not as tall as they wanted it to be.

[Gistok]

I know no one here wants to sound like a Debbie Downer... nor do we have reason to, with these little changes... but I have to agree with one point just made.... what was the reason for at least the 14 story main block? It was all so vague. It looked exciting, but what was the purpose of all those various floors of different heights? First floor retail... check... floors of office space... check.... tower with hotel [[of questionable size) and residential... check. But all that other "event" space had me scratching my head all along. A museum? A theatre? Display space?

I hope we are all just reading too much into all of these little nuances... but I guess time will tell. One point of solice is that Gilbert has delivered on everything he has said he would so far. And I don't believe that there is some nefarious "deep state" in city government that wants to quash all plans by developers that doesn't confirm to their hidden agenda... I don't buy that.

I guess the best we can do is remember that Gilbert is not an Ilitch!

[Atticus]

I know no one here wants to sound like a Debbie Downer... nor do we have reason to, with these little changes... but I have to agree with one point just made.... what was the reason for at least the 14 story main block? It was all so vague. It looked exciting, but what was the purpose of all those various floors of different heights? First floor retail... check... floors of office space... check.... tower with hotel [[of questionable size) and residential... check. But all that other "event" space had me scratching my head all along. A museum? A theatre? Display space?

I hope we are all just reading too much into all of these little nuances... but I guess time will tell. One point of solice is that Gilbert has delivered on everything he has said he would so far. And I don't believe that there is some nefarious "deep state" in city government that wants to quash all plans by developers that doesn't confirm to their hidden agenda... I don't buy that.

I guess the best we can do is remember that Gilbert is not an Ilitch!

One optimistic point is that Detroit is still woefully behind the other large Midwestern cities when it comes to large scale hotel options downtown. There is a large void here in that regard, which makes a large hotel possible. Even on a recession, the need is still here.

The problem is Gilbert himself is on the injured reserve list, and I don’t know how we’ll Bedrock can sell the concept without the point man. There is still a vey solid business case to be made for a large hotel, but with a recession looming, and only a few hotel management companies out there with enough capital to take on a project like this, it becomes a harder sell.

[Scottathew]

Check this out: http://1md1ifcdgpn3hahxo2l2bzt6.wpen...OneSheeter.pdf


Big thing to note for the Hudson's site: "The planned through-cut public space will be widened to enable more programming options."

To me this means that the space between the two buildings [[the 14 story and the ultra-tall tower) will be getting bigger. This to me means that one of the buildings is getting narrower. I would imagine it would be the pedestal [[14 story) one, as the tower can't really get shrunk too much without the floor plans not making sense.

[M. Brown]

Check this out: http://1md1ifcdgpn3hahxo2l2bzt6.wpen...OneSheeter.pdf


Big thing to note for the Hudson's site: "The planned through-cut public space will be widened to enable more programming options."

To me this means that the space between the two buildings [[the 14 story and the ultra-tall tower) will be getting bigger. This to me means that one of the buildings is getting narrower. I would imagine it would be the pedestal [[14 story) one, as the tower can't really get shrunk too much without the floor plans not making sense.

Maybe the pedestal will get taller if it gets narrower. I'd imagine the need for office space is till there.

Also, it shows that the projected completion date for Monroe Blocks is 2022. Has the completion date not been pushed back even with the construction delay I wonder?

[Atticus]

Maybe the pedestal will get taller if it gets narrower. I'd imagine the need for office space is till there.

Also, it shows that the projected completion date for Monroe Blocks is 2022. Has the completion date not been pushed back even with the construction delay I wonder?

My guess is the completion date has not been pushed back YET. If they are still in design, then they probably don’t know how long it will fully take to build... as they don’t fully know what is being built yet.

[stasu1213]

I had never known of a project that had work started on it before the final design had been determined

[ParisianLesion]

I had never known of a project that had work started on it before the final design had been determined

Ha! Having worked in the industry I can tell you that almost never DOESN'T happen. And the larger the development, the more common it is.

[hybridy]

Ha! Having worked in the industry I can tell you that almost never DOESN'T happen. And the larger the development, the more common it is.

Yeah, it's rare these days. It's called Design-Bid-Build. It's not very common these days as owners want Speed to Market. So architects and engineers break buildings into multiple bid packages and release the over time. Civil and structure go first while architecture and interiors will slide out, as getting into the ground and going vertical will take time. It provides risk to the owner, because decisions get delayed and then costs are incurred as the contractor bid earlier drafts of the documents when late changes are requested. This is because the owner typically requests a GMP [[guaranteed maximum price) but then changes their damn mind after GMP is accepted.

Regarding Hudsons - final documents are going out for hard bid in November.

[EGrant]

Final documents are going out for hard bid in November. At least as of today.

What does that mean?

[wzer]

I know you guys have reason to get a little ummm nervous given the long term history of development but until or unless there is something or someone who says the project is in trouble then don't sweat it. Dan has a team that knows exactly what they are doing, what resources they have and the state of the economy. Any recession talk is a bit premature and the indicators are that it is almost 2 years in the future. It will happen, it is part of the business cycle but this project should be done by then. If you want to see about how tall this will be look at

this.

This is a building that topped off today in Seattle and is a tad shorter than what the Hudson building will be. This one is about 870'. You guys should be very excited for what is about to happen.

[Dmberko11]

It means whatever changes they make will be absolutely final by then. I know you guys have reason to get a little ummm nervous given the long term history of development but until or unless there is something or someone who says the project is in trouble then don't sweat it. Dan has a team that knows exactly what they are doing, what resources they have and the state of the economy. Any recession talk is a bit premature and the indicators are that it is almost 2 years in the future. It will happen, it is part of the business cycle but this project should be done by then. If you want to see about how tall this will be look at

this.

This is a building that topped off today in Seattle and is a tad shorter than what the Hudson building will be. This one is about 870'. You guys should be very excited for what is about to happen.

Thanks for sharing that link! Neat view of Seattle. They’re building so much up there.
I have faith in DG. That recent news conference might’ve been a tad rattling but something tall will be built. Fingers crossed they’ll land an awesome hotel chain for the tower.

[hybridy]

What does that mean?

It means the architects and engineers are done drawing all the details, sections, plans etc. that are needed to construct the building. These documents will come with multiple hefty sets of specifications as well. Those specs + drawings are then sent to the GC and their subs to get pricing for all the built elements. Any savings from these bid costs may go back to the GC under the GMP - though the actual contract may differ. I'm simply speaking to the typical.

Ideally, changes are kept to a minimum after this point - but they are in essence inevitable. And every change incurs an added cost. In that instance the owner typically sets aside a Construction Contingency to cover these changes and for Errors & Omissions which also occur. This is usually around 3% of construction cost, but can be higher or lower.

[Detroitdave]

Unlike the renaissance center The thing I like about all these projects they move and spread people and help the surrounding areas. The rencen just kept everyone and business in that one location.

[EGrant]

Thanks for the explanations. I assume once they submit the final plans, they'll be publicly available, either intentional or via FOIA request?

[hybridy]

Thanks for the explanations. I assume once they submit the final plans, they'll be publicly available, either intentional or via FOIA request?

Presumably there should be some record in city planning commission minutes

[Seven&wyo]

3 posts of some powerful stupidity^^^^

[Gistok]

Where's the MLS stadium district Dan promised with flashy renderings to get the fail jail land? It's interesting how people see what they want to see and spread these phony narratives. Gilbert, Gores and Ilitch are all peas in a pod. Stop bootlicking and start getting skeptical. Way too much free land, back scratching and public giveaways moving around to throne sniff these local billionaires.

If you can't figure out the huge difference between Gilbert and the Ilitches... then the "50 posts and half a brain theshold" for you has not yet been reached.

As far as Gilbert financing... he just sold 2 of his casinos in the last 9 months for a total of about $1.8 billion. Who needs the Chinese?

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...al/3752971002/

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...ky_horse_track

As for MLS... Ilitch and Gores have planned a deal with the Fords over using Ford Field for Soccer. Neither the city nor Gilbert wants one more partial use stadium/arena in the north end of downtown... and who can blame them. If pro MLS doesn't like an indoor arena, then we just won't get a franchise. Neither Gilbert/Gores nor the city are going to pay for it when they have an existing alternative.

[Seven&wyo]

Don't forget the privately held billion dollar mortgage company he owns. I heard there's some good cash to be made there, but what do I know

[drjeff]

Remember when they broke ground on LCA and nothing noticeable from the street happened for awhile? Remember how there were naysayers swearing this project would never happen? I remember, and those morons would never admit it. And that project was from the unreliable Ilitches. Gilbert has never started a project in Detroit that wasn't finished.

On another note, do you really think the same numbers of tradespeople are available in Detroit as in Chicago, where there has been constant construction for decades?

[Gistok]

Remember when they broke ground on LCA and nothing noticeable from the street happened for awhile? Remember how there were naysayers swearing this project would never happen? I remember, and those morons would never admit it. And that project was from the unreliable Ilitches. Gilbert has never started a project in Detroit that wasn't finished.

On another note, do you really think the same numbers of tradespeople are available in Detroit as in Chicago, where there has been constant construction for decades?

Well stated Dr. Jeff.... I've been mentioning before on this forum that there is a SERIOUS skilled construction labor shortage in this town. In fact that goes nationwide. And a friend in the construction industry said that he had to leave Michigan for 1 month at a time, because his firm had him work on projects in other states... where they tend to cost more money, and therefore his company makes more money lending their Michigan crews to other states. This slows down Michigan construction.

With Gilbert successfully rehabbing/building about 100 buildings downtown... why would anyone question these last few? Unless they were an Ilitch shill, or just someone not knowledgeable in the industry.

[Gistok]

Also anyone familiar with the Hudson site knows that the existing 4 story undergroud deck had to come out, then the walls of the original Hudsons below ground had to be reinforced, before the foundations to bedrock could be laid. Anyone watching the long term camera action shows that they are not just moving dirt around.

This site has been a patchwork of different buildings slowly stitched together for the Hudsons building, so it had special work that 'shovel ready' virgin ground would not have.

[Gistok]

Oh yes, the labor shortage excuse. [[Dan's health and looming recession round out the top 3, right?) Isn't it interesting how a so-called skilled labor shortage doesn't slow Chicago or Nashville or Columbus or even Ann Arbor construction...or LCA or Jeep factories in Detroit?

Anecdotes are nice... because just anyone can make one up....

https://www.marketplace.org/2019/04/...es-to-rebrand/

https://www.globest.com/2019/02/22/s...20190716143019

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/...ncerns-in-2019

"The effects of labor shortages are widespread. Thirty-seven percent of contractors said the labor shortages have raised the costs of bids and contracts, while others say it has prolonged the amount of time it takes to complete projects."


From this week.....

https://www.contractormag.com/construction-data/70-contractors-struggling-meet-deadlines-labor-shortage-persists

[EGrant]

So let me try to understand. Gilbert & Co are not building anything on the Hudson site because they didn't get "Chinese financing" so instead they are employing people to go in the site every single day, drill deep holes, place caissons and pour concrete for a building they aren't even going to build? That's what is going on?

Also, the entire LCA construction thread was started because someone was wondering why there was no progress at the site: https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...ngs-arena-site

And a Muckraker article: http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2015/0...roundbreaking/