[[Part of this) should please people here [Gordie Howe Bridge]

[BankruptcyGuy]

"In a joint release before the news conference, Trump and Trudeau did note a “shared focus on infrastructure investments,” including the Gordie Howe International Bridge in Detroit, which they said “will serve as a vital economic link between our two countries.” They said they look forward to the bridge’s “expeditious completion.”

One of the differences from having someone wealthy in office is that they are less vulnerable to bribes, er, I mean donations. If the President is in favor of the bridge, Mr. Maroun would be better off saving his money than spending it on lawyers and lobbyists.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...nada/97865146/

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

It is good news that both countries' leadership supports the bridge. The bridge is a essentially a fait accompli at this point. Maroun can slow things by suing over ever single property acquisition, but he can't stop it. It is fully permitted by all necessary governmental agencies on both sides. Further, eminent domain will cause all needed property to fall into the bridge-builders' hands. What Maroun CAN do to delay is sue for more money on each piece he owns, or offers to fund lawsuits on other owners' behalf.

From his point of view, he doesn't expect to ultimately stop it, or win very much money. But every month delayed is an additional month he maintains a monopoly on bridge traffic. He's spending a little now to make more later. I do think he is shooting himself in the foot in the end, because he would still benefit form building a new Ambassador Bridge to replace his deteriorating, antiquated and too-small-for-contemporary-use bridge. If he were playing nice, I think he wouldn't face too much opposition in doing that. But he's making unneeded enemies, particularly in the city of Windsor. I think the real path will be determined when he passes [[he turns 90 this year), and whether or not the next generation cooperates or with civic leaders or not. I have a hunch they will not be as blind, foolish, and litigious as the old man.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Oh, another Trump-Trudeau point: I hope they put their support and money into both the customs plaza and the new Soo Locks. That latter would be a real benefit to the Great Lakes maritime economy & the UP in particular. Fingers crossed.

[Warrenite84]

My biggest concern with the new Soo Locks is whether the St. Claire River can handle larger, deeper bottomed boats. I remember a few years ago there were some concerns about the Army Corps of Engineers and weather they dredged too deep there. A miscalculation on dredging depth at this point could negatively lower water levels in Lake Huron and Michigan.

Can our waterways handle these bigger boats without harming water levels in the Great Lakes? If so, build away...

[Sandhouse]

"My biggest concern with the new Soo Locks is whether the St. Claire River can handle larger, deeper bottomed boats."

I believe the new lock is described as a "second Poe Lock," meaning that it is to be the same dimensions as the 1969 lock that allowed 1,000-foot boats. The designers won't be repeating the move that allowed ships to grow bigger, and thereby obsolete all but the newest lock. So the shipping won't be any bigger or deeper. [[Insert Poe Lock joke here.)

Back to the Howe Bridge. I'd feel better about Trump's support for the project if I was sure there will still be any international trade to go over it when it's done. The operators of the bridge at Buffalo are issuing warnings of how much more land will be needed to hold traffic waiting for enhanced security screening of outbound-from-USA traffic, for retina scans of departing visaholders.

[emu steve]

I don't want be naive, but has anything changed?

I thought Canada wanted to pay for the bridge and ready to go if only Mr. M would get out of the way?

Mikey:

is this really true:

"Further, eminent domain will cause all needed property to fall into the bridge-builders' hands. "

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

emu steve, I believe that things are underway, but that property acquisition on the US side is taking longer than anticipated. I don't think there has been any successful challenge to land being acquired, but every reluctant property owner is entitled to their own day in court. Since it is both a demonstrable public need and it is a government entity seeking the properties, there isn't much chance of their not getting the property. The only factors are time in court and how much they have to pay. If there has been a successful eminent domain defense in court, involving the GH Bridge, I have not heard of it.

As for anything having changed, not much except that the leadership of both countries changed parties and principals. Another potential change: President Trump's thus-far vague infrastructure proposal could conceivably include funds for the customs plaza. We'll see.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Is that Joe Trudeau we are talking about?

[MrMichigan]

Glad they picked this design.

https://windsorstar.com/news/local-n...ational-bridge

[3WC]

I believe there are at least a couple of imminent domain issues.

First, the real party in interest in that deal is Canada. [[It's paying for the bridge and MI will only contingently repay its share out of tolls over many years. Since Canada is the real party in interest it does not have any right to condemn U.S. property. [[It can be argued that MI could condemn land in it's own name but it can't convey the land to others and I though Canada will own the land on the U.S. side until MI pays its share of the costs many years from now, if ever.)

Second, once could argue that the bridge is not a public purpose, a necessary factor to justify the use of imminent domain; the Ambassador bridge and the tunnel are adequately serving the needs of those crossing to and from the U.S. in the Detroit area. I have seen no facts justifying the claim trade will be increased just because there's a shiny new bridge, especially if Maroun reduces his fees thereby making the new bridge uneconomical under any scenario.

I see all the plans and economic projections have apparently been made - but not publicly. Man plans, God laughs.

There are four kinds of lies: little lies, damn lies, statistics, and government plans and predictions.

Someone show us why a new bridge is needed and will be cost effective. I think the bridge people want to piss away $4.5 billion because they hate Maroun.

[3WC]

P.S. those govt yo-yos are apparently projecting the cost to be between $4.5 billion and 2.5 billion. Guess what it will cost. Can anyone see a pvt business survive on such loose cost projections. I can't wait to see the muni-bond disclosure statements.

[Canadian Visitor]

P.S. those govt yo-yos are apparently projecting the cost to be between $4.5 billion and 2.5 billion. Guess what it will cost. Can anyone see a pvt business survive on such loose cost projections. I can't wait to see the muni-bond disclosure statements.

Really?

Aside from 'imminent domain' instead of 'eminent'; a strange hatred of government not informed by the facts; and a failure to realize that nothing goes to tender without 'class 3' estimates for which the range will be a hell of a lot smaller than the above........

What was it you were hoping to contribute?

[Meddle]

Someone show us why a new bridge is needed and will be cost effective. I think the bridge people want to piss away $4.5 billion because they hate Maroun.

Woks for me on that alone.

But the main reasons are to get the truck traffic out of both 'downtown' areas. Yes, much lesser on the US side, but it still causes problems in that mess of an interchange. Downriver will eliminate that to a large degree.

[3WC]

Well, your disregard of the facts and problem comprehending are mitigated somewhat by the fact you can spell, or maybe avoid typos.

"Goes to tender?" " 'class 3' estimates?" Write in real English please. Eh.

For your information, "hatred of government" in our country is a national pastime. That may be a tad harsh so feel free to substitute "distrust" for "hatred."

Most people who have owned and operated successful business realize that estimating costs is one of the most important thing one must do. You don't have to graduate from Wharton to understand that. Of course, those principles don't apply to governments do they?

Contribute? I'm here to enlighten. Chill.

[Richard]

P.S. those govt yo-yos are apparently projecting the cost to be between $4.5 billion and 2.5 billion. Guess what it will cost. Can anyone see a pvt business survive on such loose cost projections. I can't wait to see the muni-bond disclosure statements.

Hey have you not heard,it is Canada's bridge,they are paying for it so as an American shut up and sit down because they own you.

I wonder how well that would go over in Canada if the US took property and said it is now ours.We paid for it so now that sovereign soil is ours.

Edited: Now that it is clear that Trump supports the bridge where is the resist crowd,you would think that the very mention of his name attached to it would make it a no go.

[Canadian Visitor]

"Goes to tender?" " 'class 3' estimates?" Write in real English please. Eh.

The nature of class estimates is discussed here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_estimate

I'm quite sure given the project scale they would be at 4 or higher pre-tender and 5 for finalization of bid documents.

Tender: Placing a project out for bids.

All of the bidders will have done their own estimates/budgets, and the Bridge authority would have an internal set before putting the project out for bids.

For your information, "hatred of government" in our country is a national pastime. That may be a tad harsh so feel free to substitute "distrust" for "hatred."

I don't believe in being irrational about anything except maybe your favourite colour/food and your choice of mate.

Otherwise, evidenced-based decision making is the order of he day. That includes evaluating business, government, and anything else discussed in the public sphere.

When you let hatred/distrust become irrational and envelop your entire decision-making ethos, you can no longer come to reasoned or logical conclusions.

You may have preferences which are informed by your experiences, but they can't be so far out there. Its just wacky.

Most people who have owned and operated successful business realize that estimating costs is one of the most important thing one must do. You don't have to graduate from Wharton to understand that. Of course, those principles don't apply to governments do they?

Of course they do. But they haven't published the high-class estimates.

Do you know why?

Because they don't want to tell the bidder[[s) the price starts at X.

You keep your estimate hush hush beyond a general placeholder amount until you've put the project out for bids.

You might still keep it quiet if there is any room for negotiation based on value-engineering proposals from the prospective winner.

Once the final documents are signed, its all made public.

[Richard]

When they presented the sales pitch to the public,they provided numbers to justify the construction of it.

When there is over a 3 billion dollar difference in the construction costs alone,what other numbers were not presented in good faith,common sense say that they did not just say,let's build a bridge and guesstimate the cost of it.

They knew from the start how much it was going to cost and the US taxpayers would never see a return on it in collected tolls.

They should have been honest in the beginning and if it was a viable project then it would have been recognized as one.As of now the only reason it looks justified to the public is to stick it to Matty,because clearly their in house presented numbers are as bogus as everybody else's.

What makes thier deception any different then anybody else's,they do not care and it has nothing to do with keeping things secret during the bidding process,it is taxpayer guaranteed,so who cares about overruns,all they had to do was sell it in order to break ground anything after that is on the taxpayer.

If that was not the case then the Canadian govenment would not have ordered a review,it would appear that the Canadian taxpayer does not look to kindly on funding things based on misleading information either.

Lets face it the only people that are making money on the thing is the designers,builders,funders and the management team.

The only payback to the taxpayer is the trade aspect,so if trade is good it sustains itself,if trade is low the taxpayer coughs up,the little dangling carrot to Michigan and the US taxpayer of the false hope of collecting toll revenue after thier debt is paid is bogus and the City of Detroit now loses land that they will never be able to collect property taxes on again.

The debt will never be paid and it will always be a debt which keeps the US taxpayer obligated for losses with no chance of returns.

The rest of the country could care less about the spat between Canada and Detroit,you are asking the rest of the country to cough up now and for the next 100 years with another added tax burden on something that we will never own,personally I do not see the value of spending $250 million + a year because somebody in Detroit thinks matty is an ass,that is thier problem not mine or the rest of the country.

If the only basis that there is in order to justify the bridge is trade numbers then provide them and not some from 8 years ago,it does not matter how many Washington politicians that were smoozed in the process,they are accountable to the taxpayers and thier actions can also be held to the fire no different then what Canada is doing now.

[Canadian Visitor]

When they presented the sales pitch to the public,they provided numbers to justify the construction of it.

When there is over a 3 billion dollar difference in the construction costs alone,what other numbers were not presented in good faith,common sense say that they did not just say,let's build a bridge and guesstimate the cost of it.

They knew from the start how much it was going to cost and the US taxpayers would never see a return on it in collected tolls.

They should have been honest in the beginning and if it was a viable project then it would have been recognized as one.As of now the only reason it looks justified to the public is to stick it to Matty,because clearly their in house presented numbers are as bogus as everybody else's.

What makes thier deception any different then anybody else's,they do not care and it has nothing to do with keeping things secret during the bidding process,it is taxpayer guaranteed,so who cares about overruns,all they had to do was sell it in order to break ground anything after that is on the taxpayer.

If that was not the case then the Canadian govenment would not have ordered a review,it would appear that the Canadian taxpayer does not look to kindly on funding things based on misleading information either.

Lets face it the only people that are making money on the thing is the designers,builders,funders and the management team.

The only payback to the taxpayer is the trade aspect,so if trade is good it sustains itself,if trade is low the taxpayer coughs up,the little dangling carrot to Michigan and the US taxpayer of the false hope of collecting toll revenue after thier debt is paid is bogus and the City of Detroit now loses land that they will never be able to collect property taxes on again.

The debt will never be paid and it will always be a debt which keeps the US taxpayer obligated for losses with no chance of returns.

The rest of the country could care less about the spat between Canada and Detroit,you are asking the rest of the country to cough up now and for the next 100 years with another added tax burden on something that we will never own,personally I do not see the value of spending $250 million + a year because somebody in Detroit thinks matty is an ass,that is thier problem not mine or the rest of the country.

If the only basis that there is in order to justify the bridge is trade numbers then provide them and not some from 8 years ago,it does not matter how many Washington politicians that were smoozed in the process,they are accountable to the taxpayers and thier actions can also be held to the fire no different then what Canada is doing now.

US taxpayers are in no way shape or form on the hook.

To say otherwise isn't merely stupid, its a lie.

As for the cost inflation it is almost entirely a result of the decreasing value of the Canadian dollar.

The cost is much closer to its original number in US dollars.

That's not a corrupt or wasteful act.

Its a reality that property and materials and services purchased in American dollars will now cost more to buy in Canadian dollars.

Remember the Canadian currency was near parity with the US dollar when this was being discussed initially.

We're now at .75c US. That 25% decline in the dollar, means as as-of-right increase in costs in US dollars of 33%.

Apart from that, the initial proposal was in 2004.

Its now 2018.

That's 14 years of inflation. That's about 27% according to the Bank of Canada's inflation calculator.

Its likely construction materials/services are even higher.

[MrMichigan]

Well, you guys just ruined this thread.

Trying to talk about the design, not politics/greed.

[Richard]

Well, you guys just ruined this thread.

Trying to talk about the design, not politics/greed.

The link the OP posted has nothing to do with the design aspect,more so on how people were freaking out about trade wars that do not exist.

[Richard]

US taxpayers are in no way shape or form on the hook.

To say otherwise isn't merely stupid, its a lie.

As for the cost inflation it is almost entirely a result of the decreasing value of the Canadian dollar.

The cost is much closer to its original number in US dollars.

That's not a corrupt or wasteful act.

Its a reality that property and materials and services purchased in American dollars will now cost more to buy in Canadian dollars.

Remember the Canadian currency was near parity with the US dollar when this was being discussed initially.

We're now at .75c US. That 25% decline in the dollar, means as as-of-right increase in costs in US dollars of 33%.

Apart from that, the initial proposal was in 2004.

Its now 2018.

That's 14 years of inflation. That's about 27% according to the Bank of Canada's inflation calculator.

Its likely construction materials/services are even higher.

Before you casually call me stupid or a liar,can you show me something in writing as in a guarantee from the Canadian govenment or a link from an official source that backs that up?Otherwise you may end up being the exact same thing you accuse others of.

When you call somebody a liar the very least you need to be doing is backing your claims with facts.

So are the United States customs inspectors going to paid in USD or Canadian same as,coast guard,homeland security,border patrol etc.

Are the vending machines in the United States customs offices going to except Canadian currancy.

So the original estimates of the trade values have also changed because of the 33% drop?

So trade estimates could have changed to $6.

Everything is on projected revenues and not based on today,what was the property and small business taxes collected in the past 30 Years in Del Rey what is the projected net loss to the city of Detroit in property and business tax collected for the next 100 years.

In a city that had declining property tax revenues it is wiser to remove even more permanently on a gamble.

Iheart Canada is now reporting a cost of 10 billion,that is a 7 billion difference,if the projected trade numbers resemble the same accounting practices then as a taxpayer I would rather give the city 250,000,000 a year to fix potholes,run transit,fix schools the odds are much better in success.

Senior officials have been coy about the anticipated price, but it could go from the $5-billion range to as much as $7 to $10 billion.
http://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/news...lion-1.3576933

Look at the date,they already knew that back in January and the reports go back even further,they knew from the start that no way that bridge was going to be built at the number they were giving out.

[Canadian Visitor]

Before you casually call me stupid or a liar,can you show me something in writing as in a guarantee from the Canadian govenment or a link from an official source that backs that up?Otherwise you may end up being the exact same thing you accuse others of.

Here's the thing. All these facts are public knowledge.

They're not hidden somewhere that you can't see.

All you have to do is be awake, pay attention and voila you would already know what everyone else does and what I just said.

But for your edification, the financial risks are covered under the Canada-Michigan Crossing agreement, signed way back in 2012.

And I quote:

" Under the Crossing Agreement’s terms, Canada
will assume responsibility for the entire project, "

PPlease use the following citation: http://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/f...ational-trade-crossing-nitc-pdf-8mb-112972.pdf


For the record, we have debated numerous subjects in the years I've been on this board, on those points on which we have disagreed you have been right exactly zero times. I have been right exactly every time.

I do my research BEFORE I open my mouth or post. You would do well to follow my lead.

Further to that, the actual text of the agreement is here:

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/b...t_389284_7.pdf

It contains this passage:

"The Michigan Parties shall not be required to fund any International Crossing Costs, Michigan Interchange Costs, US Federal Plaza Costs, Crossing Authority Costs or International Authority Costs"

So are the United States customs inspectors going to paid in USD or Canadian same as,coast guard,homeland security,border patrol etc.

What kind of nonsense question is this?

US Customs will be paid by the United States Federal government as per the norm. If traffic volumes are steady when the new bridge opens there will be no more or fewer inspectors than today, so the net operating cost will not change.

Duh!

Everything is on projected revenues and not based on today,what was the property and small business taxes collected in the past 30 Years in Del Rey what is the projected net loss to the city of Detroit in property and business tax collected for the next 100 years.

Delray was not exactly a goldmine for Detroit. Apologies to the residents, but sketchy rather understates things.

The area will now be busier, w/more jobs, a good chunk of the blight removed and a community benefits package on top of that.

I don't see Detroit taking any loss here; moreover, if this results, as anticipated, in the closure of the Ambassador, it will facilitate considerable redevelopment in that area, and likely generate a substantial tax windfall for Detroit.

[Richard]

You are the funny one,the US customs will be paid for by the federal government,you posted it.

Where exactly does the federal goverment get its funds,a tree in the back yard ?

Also in your own words ... Duh

Let me guess,it is free money when it comes from the federal govenment.

Now say it again,there will be no US taxpayer funds involved with the bridge and revisit the whole stupid and lying concept and who it applies to.

Your argument about useing the currant state of Del Rey holds about as much water as the bridge estimates,are you really that blind when you have a city across the river proving on a daily basis that it does not matter what it looked like yesterday or what it looks like today,they have what it takes to make sure in the future it will not be the same,that is something I guess you will never be able to understand or are jealous of.

By your comments and attitude maybe it is time for the country to know on a larger scale and let them decide,then you can get up on stage and tell everybody that it will not cost them anything because it is the federal government paying for it.

This is the quality of a free collage education in Canada,I guess you get what you pay for.

I can use that pound sign thing the youngsters use

#sinkthebridge
#thatbridgedontfloat
#Candiansnowjobflowssouth.

You are also admitting in the last paragraph that the numbers do not support two bridges,in your highly educated opinion,of course.Snickers,do you guys have that candy bar up there.

Washington post : Canada tells United States taxpayer the bridge is free to them because the federal government is paying the costs.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

One of the differences from having someone wealthy in office is that they are less vulnerable to bribes, er, I mean donations. If the President is in favor of the bridge, Mr. Maroun would be better off saving his money than spending it on lawyers and lobbyists.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...nada/97865146/

That might be true for an honest businessman; the exact opposite is true for our Grifter In Chief. Maroun is just not as able to bribe as effectively as the numerous foreign interests who shovel money into Trumps interests and then coincidentally get favorable treatment.

[Meddle]

US Customs will be paid by the United States Federal government as per the norm. If traffic volumes are steady when the new bridge opens there will be no more or fewer inspectors than today, so the net operating cost will not change.

There will if they have to provide crews for both bridges. The personnel will double at least.

UNLESS, they do as I suggested and move the crews from Matty's Folly to the new bridge, effectively shutting Matty down.