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[Zacha341]

Trump Invites a New Killing Field

Trump’s betrayal of the Kurds isn’t just immoral—there’s no strategic reason for it.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ds-turkey.html

From article:

Inside Syria, one of two things will happen as a result. Either the Kurds will be mowed down, or they’ll make an alliance with Syrian government, as they’ve already started to do, thereby strengthening Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. The violence will escalate. Probably Trump wouldn’t care either way, though the affected Syrian people will. In any case, the chances of a political settlement dim further—and the chances of an ISIS revival leap up.

Out in the rest of the world, this will be seen as another sign of Trump’s—and, therefore, America’s—erratic behavior and ultimate unreliability.

[Zacha341]

Turkish troops launch offensive into northern Syria, says Erdogan

[Richard]

The Turks are our allies and the Kurds are our allies.

We either had to pick a side or get out of the way,Turkey told Trump that there was a high chance of them crossing the border.

We have 1000 troops there with half of that a fighting force.

They have not been called back yet but they are out of harms way.

So we need to either move more troops in and pick a side or back out.

[oladub]

Btw, I don't put that there to suggest Canada is special etc.

Rather to point out that U.S. allies may already be busy helping out around the world.

I'm omitting a variety of other operations.

I'm unaware of any other U.S. allies positioning their troops as triggers along the Syrian/Turkish border. I don't think U.S. troops should be there either. It would make more sense for those U.S. troops to be stationed along our southern border assisting our border patrol. There were 818 thousand apprehensions of people who were not lawfully in the U.S. last year and another 264 thousand people who turned up at the border and were deemed 'inadmissible. Elsewhere, I read that the border patrol estimates that it apprehends about 54% of illegal border crossers.

[Shelby_]

Turkish troops launch offensive into northern Syria, says Erdogan

As a veteran I am horrified that this is happening. By abandoning the Kurds, we're abandoning an ally who stood with us, even when we were wrong. I'm sure American soldiers who fought side by side with the Kurds are overwhelmed with shame, disgust, and frustration.

It leaves me shaking my head that Trump, who never misses an opportunity to criticize Barack Obama, is making the same mistake Obama did.

[Richard]

^ so what are your thoughts about going to war with Turkey.

They are our NATO ally that maintains the second largest military in all of NATO.

So it would be the United States and the Kurds against NATO.

The Dems were calling that Trump would bring us into WW3,he just kept us out of it.

The Kurds are considered a terrorist threat in Turkey,all they had to do was stop the violence within Turkeys border.

That is thier battle not ours.

The Kurds may had been our bed partners but they did not join us in a retaliation against ISIS,we were just a means to an end as much to them as they were to us.

The previous administration knew exactly this day would come and felt it was best to kick the can down the road,that day is here.

How come in 1918 when the allies carved that ME up over there they did not give the Kurds a chunk of land?

No way in the world we are going to justify going against Turkey for the Kurds even more so Iran,Iraq and every other country would jump into the Frey.

Are you guys really ready to go to war against NATO? Over the Kurds?

We are talking about taking on the rest of the world military wise,heck Canada would be in Detroit in hours.

Millions of lives at stake and the best people can come up with is Trump sucks.

We go to war against a NATO partner we are on our own,we are no longer a part of NATO.

Who is going to help us ? The Kurds? They do not have enough people and we do not have enough body bags.

Of course the positive side would be the population loss would lower the carbon footprint and gear up billions in military contracts,the problem is we do not have the production capacity to support a full scale multinational war.

You can kinda see why there are some that prefer that this moves forward,all so some can say look it was Trumps fault.

When we make deals with the devil we are no longer obligated to them after thier usefulness is done.Thats war.

Russia was our allies during WW2 are we still beholden to them?

[Johnnny5]

“I held off this fight for…. ….almost 3 years, but it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home.“WE WILL FIGHT WHERE IT IS TO OUR BENEFIT, AND ONLY FIGHT TO WIN.“Turkey, Europe, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Russia and the Kurds will now have to….. …figure the situation out,” Tweet from President Trump

I agree with President Trump on this 100%. There's never going to be clean exit from these conflicts, and people are going to die no matter what. So why should we risk further issues with Russia and Turkey and American lives? Bring our troops home!


***Edited to clarify that paragraph in quotations are President Trump's words, not mine.

[oladub]

By abandoning the Kurds, we're abandoning an ally who stood with us, even when we were wrong.

The Kurds were our allies against ISIS. Our other allies against ISIS include Iraq, Syria, and Russia. Obama tried to overthrow Syria while Turkey was buying petroleum from ISIS and providing us with an airbase to attack our enemies. It gets convoluted and confusing telling the good guys from the bad. CIA funded 'rebels' were fighting Pentagon funded 'rebels'. Erdogon came to the U.S. and unveiled a mosque in our Capital in which Turkey had invested $110M.

The Kurds were losing cities to ISIS until the U.S. bankrolled the Kurds and drove back ISIS. We helped the Kurds achieve a common goal. We did not enter into a treaty with the Kurds. However, the U.S. and Turkey are NATO allies. We are caught up in one big circular firing squad.

Repeat: Congress should pass a bill instructing the Commander in Chief how to pursue a war with ISIS, Turkey or whomever. Until if and when Congress does, Trump has every right to bring our troops home. Whatever congress is presently doing must be more important.

[Shelby_]

^ so what are your thoughts about going to war with Turkey.

They are our NATO ally that maintains the second largest military in all of NATO.

So it would be the United States and the Kurds against NATO.

The Dems were calling that Trump would bring us into WW3,he just kept us out of it.

The Kurds are considered a terrorist threat in Turkey,all they had to do was stop the violence within Turkeys border.

That is thier battle not ours.

The Kurds may had been our bed partners but they did not join us in a retaliation against ISIS,we were just a means to an end as much to them as they were to us.

The previous administration knew exactly this day would come and felt it was best to kick the can down the road,that day is here.

How come in 1918 when the allies carved that ME up over there they did not give the Kurds a chunk of land?

No way in the world we are going to justify going against Turkey for the Kurds even more so Iran,Iraq and every other country would jump into the Frey.

Are you guys really ready to go to war against NATO? Over the Kurds?

We are talking about taking on the rest of the world military wise,heck Canada would be in Detroit in hours.

Millions of lives at stake and the best people can come up with is Trump sucks.

We go to war against a NATO partner we are on our own,we are no longer a part of NATO.

Who is going to help us ? The Kurds? They do not have enough people and we do not have enough body bags.

Of course the positive side would be the population loss would lower the carbon footprint and gear up billions in military contracts,the problem is we do not have the production capacity to support a full scale multinational war.

You can kinda see why there are some that prefer that this moves forward,all so some can say look it was Trumps fault.

When we make deals with the devil we are no longer obligated to them after thier usefulness is done.Thats war.

Russia was our allies during WW2 are we still beholden to them?

Is this satire? If it isn't, it's one of the most ridiculous things I've read from you and that's saying a lot.

NATO would never side with Turkish aggression against US boots on the ground and Turkey only launched their attack after Trump ordered a withdrawal.

Consequently, your musings about going to war with NATO and Canadians invading Michigan have no basis in reality and your entire diatribe is moot.

[Shelby_]

Repeat: Congress should pass a bill instructing the Commander in Chief how to pursue a war with ISIS, Turkey or whomever. Until if and when Congress does, Trump has every right to bring our troops home. Whatever congress is presently doing must be more important.

Trump is well within his rights as commander in chief. I'm questioning his wisdom. Trump's knowledge of diplomacy and military operations is non-existent. The fact that he made this decision without consulting any advisors is a boneheaded move that should scare the shit out of all of us.

[Shelby_]

“I held off this fight for…. ….almost 3 years, but it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home.“WE WILL FIGHT WHERE IT IS TO OUR BENEFIT, AND ONLY FIGHT TO WIN.“Turkey, Europe, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Russia and the Kurds will now have to….. …figure the situation out,”

I agree with President Trump on this 100%. There's never going to be clean exit from these conflicts, and people are going to die no matter what. So why should we risk further issues with Russia and Turkey and American lives? Bring our troops home!

There WASN'T a war. That's the point. With the US forces there, the Turks didn't dare attack. It was an uneasy truce, but there was relative peace. Trump pulled the shield away from the Kurds and told Turkey it was open season. NOW there's a war. NOW there's potential genocide.

It's great you want to bring American soldiers home, but I guarantee they don't want to come home if it means abandoning soldiers they fought side by side with.

[Richard]

They fought side by side out of a common hatred,ISIS bought and sold Kurd women as slaves,the women Kurd fighters put a lot of men to shame,like every bullet sent is personal.

The United States military is not about what the individual wants,it is not a democracy,they had a mission,the mission is over.

Our soldiers have fought alongside of Russians,Chinese and nuked the Japanese,our friends become our enemies,our enemies become our friends.

Like it or not we are on Syrian sovereign territory and it is not our call to wage war outside of ISIS,if we want to wage war let’s get serious and do what it takes to take control of Syria and give it to the Kurds.

Every month 3 or 4 Americans are killed over there just in suicide attacks in bars etc. What are they dying for?

I agree with the concept of it was probably inferred to them by the Obama Administration that if the President of Syria was removed from power then they would have been given a state of thier own.

Before the US state department took them off air,Hillary,there was a Kurd web site that gave updates from the resistance as to what was going on,it was the US that knocked them down in order to have leverage for them to fight for us.

All of this really has little to do with ISIS,it is the bigger picture of stability or instability in the Middle East.

We will never take ISIS out,they just move,now Canada gets to chase them around in Africa.

The US screwed the Kurds long ago in Iran,the Kurds used to control the oil fields until we let Saddam push them off,then when we took Saddam out the Kurds were supposed to get a chunk for thier own state.

They voted on a referendum and approved it to become a state,the US told them to stand down because we did not them upsetting the balance in Iraq and Turkey.

At one time they were 30 million strong.

The Kurds are kinda like the Jews were before settling Israel,persecution,genocide and no home were a part of life.

After WW1 the US,France,UK etc could have given them a state when they divided up the Middle East as it is today.But they did not.

It sucks abandoning soldiers that you fought alongside with,it sucks even worse dying for no cause and explaining it to the wives and children.

The option of joining them is there.

[Zacha341]

Uh, yeah. Even some of his staunch, long standing supporters, pre and post election view this with great concern.

I'm not particularly partisan: you could see the trouble of this coming around the corner ala his inexperience here.

Trump is well within his rights as commander in chief. I'm questioning his wisdom. Trump's knowledge of diplomacy and military operations is non-existent. The fact that he made this decision without consulting any advisors is a boneheaded move that should scare the shit out of all of us.

[oladub]

Trump is well within his rights as commander in chief. I'm questioning his wisdom. Trump's knowledge of diplomacy and military operations is non-existent. The fact that he made this decision without consulting any advisors is a boneheaded move that should scare the shit out of all of us.

You told Johnnny5 in post 3561 "There wasn't a war." in response to his comment " it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars". Richard made some great points in post 3556 by the way.

I am wondering if President Trump hasn't been taking advice from Senator Rand Paul about the situation in Syria. I did post a Rand Paul link in post 3552. which included-

"The United States has an estimated 1,000 troops in Syria. According to The New York Times, Trump's pullback order affects around 100 to 150 of them.
Turkey wants to set up a buffer zone, free of Kurdish fighters, along its 300-mile border with Syria. It then plans to repatriate some two million Syrian refugees who fled to Turkey to escape the civil war."

Having helped rid Syria of most of the ISIS caliphate with the help of Assad, Russia, and the Kurds, our business there is done. It is an act of war to invade and occupy another country's territory which Obama did in the case of Syria. We should get out. You seem unable to grasp the fact that there are other allies and parties involved besides the U.S. and the Kurds and that some of our allies are each others' enemies. Don't you feel sorry for the 3.6M Syrian refugees in Syria for instance? Do you want to keep them there indefinitely? If you are waiting for a kinder, gentler Islam, it won't happen. Suppressing Islamic terrorism is like playing whack-a-mole. Putting 150 American soldiers in harm's way, as an occupying force where they don't belong subjects them to getting whacked too. It's mission creep. It's a recipe for dead Americans and more wars.

It isn't just that Trump might be listening to Rand Paul, Trump campaigned on not getting into more wars while Hillary campaigned on shooting [[Russian) planes out of Syrian air space. Imagine that; a President who is trying to keep his campaign promise. Hillary was McCain in drag if the likes of them is what you mean by advisors. Peppering x number of countries all over the world with 150 U.S. soldiers to trigger a war if attacked is not good foreign policy.

[Zacha341]

Their woman led military aspect is called the WPU [[Women Protection Unit). No kidding they must fight to the death or the alternative: killed, kidnapped and raped, raped then killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%...otection_Units
Attachment 39062

They fought side by side out of a common hatred,ISIS bought and sold Kurd women as slaves,the women Kurd fighters put a lot of men to shame,like every bullet sent is personal....

[Richard]

In 2016 we had a total of 300 actual troops on the ground,plus support staff operating in the capacity as advisors.

What is even more interesting is we were not alone,United Kingdom, France, Jordan, Turkey, Canada, Australia were also there.

Silent on that side.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amer...rian_Civil_War

There was also a planned withdrawal by 2020.

[aj3647]

Having helped rid Syria of most of the ISIS caliphate with the help of Assad, Russia, and the Kurds, our business there is done.

For starters, the SDF is holding 12,000 ISIS fighters in prisons in Northeastern Syria. They are holding another ~70,000 ISIS brides, children, and sympathizers in refugee camps. What happens to them in this mess? Kurds have already said that guarding these prisoners is now their lowest priority and have already begun to redeploy soldiers away from guard duty towards the front lines. I've also already seen reports from Syria of ISIS prisoners escaping and Kurdish prisons holding ISIS prisoners being attacked by Turkish bombardment. Odds are good that an entire ISIS army is about to be unleashed back onto the battlefields of Iraq and Syria, and wherever else they decide to go. Maybe someone should have planned for this before Trump made a gut call on-the-fly to let Turkey invade?

Meanwhile, Erdogan has already threatened to unleash a storm of millions of refugees [[including ISIS fighters) upon the West if they dare oppose his invasion of Syria.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9150271.html

So really, there are two decisions Trump made here:
1) Redeploy U.S. troops away from the Turkish border
2) Give Turkey the green-light to invade Syria

What oladub and other intellectually-dishonest people are doing here is conflating 1 and 2, when they are two entirely mutually-exclusive decisions. Trump could have done #1, or better yet, pulled all 1000 U.S. troops out of Syria entirely, and NOT done #2. He could have stood his ground and not let Turkey invade Syria. He chose to do the opposite.

Also, why are some of you so quick to give credit to Trump for bringing troops home? He moved 150 troops away from the Turkish border, likely to another part of Syria. That's all. I've yet to see a source that says that any U.S. troops have been withdrawn from the country entirely. So it looks to me like Trump is framing this as a "bringing the troops home" issue, when it is NOT that, and instead what it really is is "I'm going to let Turkey carve up a foreign country's territory for itself and in the process unleash an ISIS hellstorm upon the world again", which it IS.

[Richard]

The prisoners are on Syrian sovereign territory,what are our legal obligations on detainees,do we continue to bear the costs and for how long?

[Shelby_]

Oladub wrote: You told Johnnny5 in post 3561 "There wasn't a war." in response to his comment " it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars".

Actually I said: There WASN'T a war. That's the point. With the US forces there, the Turks didn't dare attack. It was an uneasy truce, but there was relative peace. Trump pulled the shield away from the Kurds and told Turkey it was open season. NOW there's a war. NOW there's potential genocide.

Having helped rid Syria of most of the ISIS caliphate with the help of Assad, Russia, and the Kurds, our business there is done. It is an act of war to invade and occupy another country's territory which Obama did in the case of Syria. We should get out...You seem unable to grasp the fact that there are other allies and parties involved besides the U.S. and the Kurds and that some of our allies are each others' enemies.

And you, along with Richard, seem unable to grasp that these actions have long term consequences and they are detrimental to our overall mission. I'm just staggered at the ignorance on display here. You guys have no understanding of how alliances work.

What you think of as endless war is good military strategy. Our mission is not to defeat terrorism with force, but to defeat it by building alliances. It's called building partner capacity [[BPC). It's achieved by, with, and through partners. It is the signature mission of special forces [[USSOF).

Unfortunately, Trump has upended years of BPC with his action. Who knew there were consequences when people chose an effing moron as their president.

[oladub]

For starters, the SDF is holding 12,000 ISIS fighters in prisons in Northeastern Syria. They are holding another ~70,000 ISIS brides, children, and sympathizers in refugee camps. What happens to them in this mess? Kurds have already said that guarding these prisoners is now their lowest priority and have already begun to redeploy soldiers away from guard duty towards the front lines. I've also already seen reports from Syria of ISIS prisoners escaping and Kurdish prisons holding ISIS prisoners being attacked by Turkish bombardment. Odds are good that an entire ISIS army is about to be unleashed back onto the battlefields of Iraq and Syria, and wherever else they decide to go. Maybe someone should have planned for this before Trump made a gut call on-the-fly to let Turkey invade?

Meanwhile, Erdogan has already threatened to unleash a storm of millions of refugees [[including ISIS fighters) upon the West if they dare oppose his invasion of Syria.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9150271.html

So really, there are two decisions Trump made here:
1) Redeploy U.S. troops away from the Turkish border
2) Give Turkey the green-light to invade Syria

What oladub and other intellectually-dishonest people are doing here is conflating 1 and 2, when they are two entirely mutually-exclusive decisions. Trump could have done #1, or better yet, pulled all 1000 U.S. troops out of Syria entirely, and NOT done #2. He could have stood his ground and not let Turkey invade Syria. He chose to do the opposite.

Also, why are some of you so quick to give credit to Trump for bringing troops home? He moved 150 troops away from the Turkish border, likely to another part of Syria. That's all. I've yet to see a source that says that any U.S. troops have been withdrawn from the country entirely. So it looks to me like Trump is framing this as a "bringing the troops home" issue, when it is NOT that, and instead what it really is is "I'm going to let Turkey carve up a foreign country's territory for itself and in the process unleash an ISIS hellstorm upon the world again", which it IS.

aj, You sound like a ventriloquist's puppet for Bolton/McCain/Hillary. What happens to the prisoners of war from any war? If Democrats get elected, they've promised to greatly expand the number of refugees brought here. That's one partial solution. I would rather Erdogen sent them back home to Syria. It is idiotic to keep our troops in this circular firing squad where the friends of our friends are our enemies. Trump didn't "let Turkey invade". Erdogen announced he was going to invade. Trump's choice was to get troops out of the way or possibly have casualties trigger a conflict with a NATO ally. Your BS macho talk about Trump should have "held his ground" is nonsense. It wasn't our ground. Key word: Mission Creep. Occupying another country is an act of war whether by the U.S. or Turkey. Eventually, Assad will pressure Turkey to get out. That's Turkey and Syria's problem; not ours.

What were you going to suggest doing with ISIS prisoners? Kill them, keep them in refugee camps indefinitely?

Answering your question, I'm quick to give Trump credit for bringing troops back home. He tried to bring them all back within weeks on 12/19/18. On 12/27/18, Trump modified that position by saying it would be done over several months. Other parties have had 10 months warning. It's more than the 150 troops along the border. That NY Times reference I mentioned suggested there were 1,000 U.S. troops still in Syria. It's happening. Half or more seem to be gone.

[Dan Wesson]

I remember that the Kurds and Turkey have a certain history.

Goes way back. Iran, Iraq, Syria. Ottoman/Turkey. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kurds

Yep nothing new.

We got caught up in it. Now its all political here when its real over there. Has been for three hundred years. Uncle Sam ain't gonna fix that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdis...%80%93present)

[jcole]

Actually I said: There WASN'T a war. That's the point. With the US forces there, the Turks didn't dare attack. It was an uneasy truce, but there was relative peace. Trump pulled the shield away from the Kurds and told Turkey it was open season. NOW there's a war. NOW there's potential genocide.



And you, along with Richard, seem unable to grasp that these actions have long term consequences and they are detrimental to our overall mission. I'm just staggered at the ignorance on display here. You guys have no understanding of how alliances work.

What you think of as endless war is good military strategy. Our mission is not to defeat terrorism with force, but to defeat it by building alliances. It's called building partner capacity [[BPC). It's achieved by, with, and through partners. It is the signature mission of special forces [[USSOF).

Unfortunately, Trump has upended years of BPC with his action. Who knew there were consequences when people chose an effing moron as their president.

When Trump stated that he could "stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody" and not "lose any voters." these guys were the voters he had in mind.

[Shelby_]

I remember that the Kurds and Turkey have a certain history.

Goes way back. Iran, Iraq, Syria. Ottoman/Turkey. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kurds

Yep nothing new.

We got caught up in it. Now its all political here when its real over there. Has been for three hundred years. Uncle Sam ain't gonna fix that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdis...%80%93present)

None of that is relevant.

The Pentagon does not employ morons. Military leaders are well schooled in military history. Our mission in the middle east is not now, now was it ever, to fix their problems.

After 9/11 military strategists at the Pentagon and DOD looked at the roots of terrorism, how we contributed to the resentment felt by many in the middle east, and what was needed to fix it. This is when they determined that building coalitions was a better option than military might. There were a few hiccups, the Bush Admin's insistence on removing Saddam Hussein comes to mind. Eventually though, the Bush and later the Obama Administration realized military planners had a better understanding for these matters and left strategy in their hands.

Unfortunately, people are impatient and because most of them have not served in the military, they don't understand the middle east mission.

Combine that with a president who does not read, does not listen, and thinks his instincts are far better than those possessed by our most experienced military leaders and here we are.

[oladub]

None of that is relevant.

The Pentagon does not employ morons. Military leaders are well schooled in military history. Our mission in the middle east is not now, now was it ever, to fix their problems.

After 9/11 military strategists at the Pentagon and DOD looked at the roots of terrorism, how we contributed to the resentment felt by many in the middle east, and what was needed to fix it. This is when they determined that building coalitions was a better option than military might. There were a few hiccups, the Bush Admin's insistence on removing Saddam Hussein comes to mind. Eventually though, the Bush and later the Obama Administration realized military planners had a better understanding for these matters and left strategy in their hands.

Unfortunately, people are impatient and because most of them have not served in the military, they don't understand the middle east mission.

Combine that with a president who does not read, does not listen, and thinks his instincts are far better than those possessed by our most experienced military leaders and here we are.

Shelby, I disagree. I'm old school. I think civilians should determine international policy. Perhaps you provided the reasons. Also, foreign policy under W. Bush and Obama has been a mess; as bad as anything since Johnson's Vietnam War. We have been in Iraq since 2003 and it has cost the lives of U.S. 3,598 soldiers and another 1,554 contractors at a cost of between $1.7-6T. The latter estimate includes things like interest and future expected veteran medical bills. The Afghanistan war has cost 2,419 U.S. lives and about $738B. Now you want to keep 150 Americans in an announced war zone as triggers hoping that Erdogan bombs around them. All these plans and alliances have been working so well except for all the dead Americans and the trillions of dollars. And millions of refugees in Turkey, Europe, Lebanon, and Syria for good measure to sell some new wars. Your plans are working so well. Obama did succeed in Libya and removing Khaddafi at the cost of wrecking that country. Clinton bombed Serbia for 78 days straight but at least didn't kill any Americans. Trump blew up some Syrian airport hangars. Somehow, after all the death and destruction, mostly under W.Bush and Obama, I doubt that these policies have reduced resentment.

Sentences in your post that I made bold suggest you didn't get much out of your AP civics class or your teacher was from some banana republic. It's total hubris to suggest that we are going "to fix their problems" in the middle east. Sunnis and Shiites have been fighting each other since almost the birth of Islam for starters.

[Dan Wesson]

Shelbys last post reminds me of Gen. Jack D. Ripper from Dr. Strangelove.

Particularly the first minute or so of this clip...