Welcome To Trump World

[rb336]

Show me the actual sources FAIR [[classified as a hate group by most outside observers - their founder, John Tanton, was booted from the Sierra Club for promoting eugenics and his close relationship with Robert Graham) used to come to the "$116 billion."

If illegals are so self sufficient why is the US government paying out over $116 billion?

[Zacha341]

^^^ You provided more information and candor than the average politician on either side! Thank you. Yes, I've thought also about changing the age of medicare. A shift of coverages would help.

Our wait lists now shorter if you have private insurance. You don't have to wait five months for a knee replacement here unless you have other issues pending or if you're a smoker. More doctors/ surgeons are declining elective surgeries if you smoke tobacco.

And no, you cannot take the nicotine patch quit method as it's often the nicotine that slows down healing!

[Zacha341]

Maybe he's listening to Rush on not being like the 'environmental wacko's'

Trump To Lift Logging Restrictions?

Trump pushing to overturn 2001 rule banning environmentally damaging logging in world’s largest temperate forest in Alaska

Ridiculous! And the repubs wonder why cannot garner the younger voter?

I did NOT vote for Trump but I have an idea who did, pulling him over the finish line so to speak. They're not going to continue to follow him around every crazy turn he takes along with the childish tweeting!

You don't have to be to the far left to know that we must conserve our planet and ecospheres! But's it being painted that way, so the far right negates concern for the environment. The teeter-totter/ push-pull...

[Canadian Visitor]

^^^ You provided more information and candor than the average politician on either side! Thank you. Yes, I've thought also about changing the age of medicare. A shift of coverages would help.

Our wait lists now shorter if you have private insurance. You don't have to wait five months for a knee replacement here unless you have other issues pending or if you're a smoker. More doctors/ surgeons are declining elective surgeries if you smoke tobacco.

And no, you cannot take the nicotine patch quit method as it's often the nicotine that slows down healing!

You're quite welcome.

Just to be sure, I looked up my example on the Ontario website for wait times.

Pretty close, the average wait for low-priority knee replacement is 127 days [[just over 4 months).

Lowest [[average) in the province [[by hospital) was a wait of 42 days in Sault Ste Marie, ON, lowest in Toronto was 46 days.

Highest makes no sense at all its a hospital in Strathroy, that's somewhere near London, ON It says 546 days, that has to mean they don't have a surgeon who does that there right now; but there's no way those patients aren't going to other hospitals.

Worst real wait time appears to be around 220 days. [[8 months). But as noted, you can choose a diff. surgeon/hospital.

[Richard]

Show me the actual sources FAIR [[classified as a hate group by most outside observers - their founder, John Tanton, was booted from the Sierra Club for promoting eugenics and his close relationship with Robert Graham) used to come to the "$116 billion."

I think in fairness and using the buck stops here approach,this is the congressional budget office report which I believe would have a non partisan view.

It is from 2007 and showcases at the state and local level of illegal immigration spending,it is also a good read because it would clear up a lot of misconceptions,like illegals do not receive free healthcare,when it is federal law that Medicare/medicaid cannot he denied based on immigration status.

There are 5 states that this impacts in the most ways,so if your state is not impacted it is understandable where the disconnects come from.

Now this is from 2007 so one can figure the numbers/costs have doubled if not more in 2019.

Once one begins to understand the basics at the state and local level then we can move on to the federal level,The report does touch on some of the reimbursement aspects and some of what the federal government actually covers.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fi...mmigration.pdf

This is the academic side of illegal immigration numbers actually being higher then reported,keep in mind most agencies pull the stats from the federal government for print in the newspapers.

But how does one actually get a solid number of illegals in the country,if you do not know if they are here?

I do not know if a Yale professor can be considered a reliable source but it is good for thought.

https://nationaleconomicseditorial.c...al-immigrants/

[Richard]

It is still not letting me edit but .....

We already know that inner city hood stores create an outflow of monies that do not return to the community,how about the larger picture of a 30 billion a year outflow.

https://nationaleconomicseditorial.c...on-hidden-tax/

[Shelby_]

o

ladub wrote:
I was addressing illegal non-citizens, You switched the topic pretty much to the vaguer Orwellian term "immigrants" with your cut and paste tome.

I clearly indicated when I was referring to undocumented immigrants.

Only the section above the line ------- was cut and paste.

The Kochs you mentioned support illegal immigration and shipping jobs abroad. Bad example.

Show me someone in business to make money who doesn't support shipping jobs abroad.




CATO is Koch funded, not Koch controlled.

Multiple sources verify what I wrote: Congressional Budget Office, Heritage Foundation, Social Security Administration etc. I believe sourcing what I say is a better alternative than relying on my own rough calculations.

My father and maternal grandparents were "immigrants"

Interesting. Do you think being a first generation American has influenced your position? I ask because we obviously have very different views related to immigration and my family history is quite the opposite of yours. My first foreign born ancestor arrived here prior to the American Revolution. Our views are formed in part from events, experiences, and personal influences [[along w/many other factors). I wonder if you see the immigration experience as more of a privilege because you're closer to it than I am.

By my rough calculations the grade 1-12 children of illegal non-citizens consume about $53B of taxpayer money yearly.

The majority of the financial cost of illegal immigration comes from the money WE put toward trying to keep immigrants out.

Illegals are not costing as much as the Trump Administration wants you to believe.

First, without knowing how you arrived at 53 billion dollars in taxpayer funds, I have to view that number as specious.

Second, illegal immigrants pay taxes. Did you factor those contributions into your estimate?

The social security administration reports undocumented workers contribute an annual average of 12 billion dollars to the SSI general fund.
Furthermore, because illegal immigrants do not receive a tax return, the money goes into something known as the Earnings Suspense File or ESF.
Currently the ESF has $519 billion and some change. Btw simple interest on that amount is 17.5 billion per year.

Illegals also pay an estimated 7.5 billion annually in income, property, and sales tax.

The Department of Justice says that 26% of federal prisoners are aliens. All this costs money.

That certainly seems like a lot, but it's important to apply some perspective. The federal prison population is small relative to the state prison population and accounts for only 10% of incarcerated individuals.
Additionally, half of that 26% are in federal prison for illegal entry.

The low wage jobs illegal non-citizens take away from American students and workers drives down wages.

Cheaper labor equals lower prices.
25% of working illegal immigrants work in agriculture. Pickers, as they're known in Romeo, Imlay City, etc., are not paid hourly. They're paid by the bushel. It's backbreaking work. Students/teens can't/won't do it. It's too hard and they don't have the work ethic.

Good for Trump if he cut the number of people claiming to be 'refugees' from dysfunctional societies. We already have quotas, as set by Congress from each country.

The United States is a party to the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees. This prescribed the continuing application of the 1951 Convention relating to the status of refugees which was adopted to address the aftermath of World War II. As the US voluntarily accepted the 1967 protocol to the refugee convention, we are legally and morally obliged to implement it. What does it tell our allies about us when we capriciously break our word? This sums up what's wrong with Trump in a nutshell. Actions have consequences, something Trump is oblivious to. If the United States can disregard a multilateral treaty it previously agreed to, and defy international humanitarian law [[IHL), what is there to keep other countries from following our example. In your support for Trump's action, have you considered the consequences? Do you have a loved one serving in the military? What if the United States entered into a conflict with Iran and in response, Iran announced they would not honor the commitment they made to follow IHL when they signed the Geneva Protocols? I have close ties to the military and can tell you this is a subject frequently discussed concern.

Meanwhile there are at least 8,000 MS-13 members in the U.S.. Over 900 were caught crossing the border illegally since 2017. Recently, 19 were arrested for chopping up some
up some people in California into parts. You include them as "immigrants" right?

Excuse me if I don't fall victim to irrational fear. I face more danger from other cars on the road than I do from MS-13 boogie men, yet I still get in my car everyday.

[Shelby_]

Please excuse the above formatting mess. I had tried to preview the message and it wouldn't allow me to go back to editing afterward. I had to copy and past it into a new "quick reply" and then post. I then tried to edit the message and it won't allow that either.

[Shelby_]

If illegals are so self sufficient why is the US government paying out over $116 billion?
In Florida alone the taxpayers cost for illegal immigration is 6 billion.

Richard do you have a source for your numbers? Have you subtracted the amount illegals contribute in tax dollars? Please see my reply to oladub that addresses this.

It does not matter who you are, an emergency room has to except you,the hospital by me was 4 stories tall,they mothballed two floors so they could regulate intake to those who pay,sorry no beds advailable,you have to go to the next hospital.

All CMS participating hospitals have to follow EMTALA...Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act and MSE anyone seeking treatment for a medical condition, regardless of legal status, citizenship, or ability to pay. Participating hospitals may not transfer or discharge patients needing emergency treatment except with the informed consent or stabilization of the patient or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment.

Illegals generally aren't aware of this law and because of this they often present to the ED critically ill and/or incapacitated. Unfortunate because it creates greater cost in the long run.

We have clinics in fla for illegals,they do not except citizens,they do not need Medicare or Medicare,they have it free,so it is easy to say they do not have it.

Are you sure they don't accept citizens? I suspect they treat the uninsured which is often the undocumented. For doctors and nurses attending such clinics is often contractually obligated volunteering. Programs like this save money in the long run by providing preventative care.

[bust]

Link for the 11th hour cancellation with the queen?

It's easy to search for this, why didn't you? Here are a few:

Danish PM ‘surprised and disappointed’ over cancelled Trump visit
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...d-shocks-danes

Danish Royal Palace 'Surprised' by Trump Snub, After President Cancels State Visit on Twitter
https://time.com/5657382/trump-green...als-surprised/

Trump cancels Denmark visit amid spat over sale of Greenland
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49416740

who are these leaders that say our reputation is tarnished...

From those three articles alone, all from 9 days ago [[there have been countless more examples since then):

Martin Lidegaard, former Danish Foreign Minister: it was "a diplomatic farce" and said Trump’s behavior was "grotesque" and he was "throwing a hissy fit."

Helle Thorning-Schmidt, former Danish Prime Minister: "deeply insulting to the people of Greenland and Denmark."

Claus Oxfeldt, Chairman of Denmark’s main police union: "it has created great frustrations to have spent so much time preparing for a visit that is canceled."

Kristian Thulesen Dahl, Leader of the Danish People's Party: a "farce." "What is this man thinking of though? And with grounds that are worthy of an April Fools' joke?"

Pia Kjaersgaard, former Speaker of the Danish Parliament: it showed a "complete lack of respect", adding: "Rude behaviour to the Danish people and the Queen, who invited him."

Eva Flyvholm, Foreign Policy Chair for Denmark’s Red-Green Alliance: "There are already many good reasons to think that the man is a fool, and now he has given another good reason."

Helle Thorning-Schmidt, former Danish Prime Minister: "Is this some sort of joke? Deeply insulting to the people of Greenland and Denmark."

Villy Søvndal, former Danish Foreign Minister: the decision "confirms that Donald Trump is a narcissistic fool."

Rasmus Jarlov, Danish Conservative MP: "As a Dane [[and a conservative) it is very hard to believe. For no reason Trump assumes that [[an autonomous) part of our country is for sale. Then insultingly cancels visit that everybody was preparing for. Are parts of the US for sale? Alaska? Please show us more respect."

Kristian Jensen, former Danish Foreign Minister: Trump's move had resulted in "total chaos". "It has gone from a great opportunity for enhanced dialogue between allies to a diplomatic crisis."

Pernille Skipper, Spokeswoman for Denmark's Red-Green Alliance: "Trump lives on another planet. Self-sufficient and disrespectful."

Lars Hovbakke Sorensen, Danish royal expert and historian: "This is a violation of all traditions and etiquettes and makes it seem like the Trump administration views state visits in a completely different way."

[bust]

For instance, indications are that Trump doesn't do his own Tweeting. Most, if not all of it come from this fellow:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/m...f-offense.html

Dan Scavino.

Thanks. That was an interesting article.

However it does not say most, if not all Trump's tweets come from Scavino. It says many do. And that the administration conceals what proportion. So we don't know how many come from the President himself. Doubtlessly many do too.

I imagine almost all the nearly incoherent ones and the ones with spelling mistakes didn't pass through a PR team and are his.

[bust]

Please excuse the above formatting mess. I had tried to preview the message and it wouldn't allow me to go back to editing afterward. I had to copy and past it into a new "quick reply" and then post. I then tried to edit the message and it won't allow that either.

Hi Shelby, and welcome to the forum. I've enjoyed your posts so far.

Maybe my suggestion here will help you edit.

The bugs are annoying, for sure. I hope they are fixed soon.

[Shelby_]

I can't fathom why they would do this. It's just cruel.

https://time.com/5662256/trump-immig...-medical-care/

Replying to my own post to follow up on this story. It just gets more awful.

Please take time to read this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/29/u...ed-action.html

To briefly summarize: Maria Isabel Bueso suffers from MPS-6, a rare autosomal recessive genetic disorder. When she was seven years old she was asked to come to the US from Guatemala to assist in clinical trials to develop treatment for her condition. Her participation led to a treatment both saving her life and benefiting Americans stricken with the disorder. She has been productive despite her condition. Last year, she graduated summa cum laude from California State University with her BS degree. She is not "illegal." She didn't sneak into the country. She isn't sponging off the government. Her family lives in a middle-class neighborhood in Concord, Calif., in a house her parents bought and renovated to accommodate their daughter’s wheelchair. They did not expect to leave the country, having won permission to stay every time they applied for an extension.

Last week she received a notice that she must leave the country within 30 days. This is literally a death sentence.

[Richard]

Richard do you have a source for your numbers? Have you subtracted the amount illegals contribute in tax dollars? Please see my reply to oladub that addresses this.



All CMS participating hospitals have to follow EMTALA...Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act and MSE anyone seeking treatment for a medical condition, regardless of legal status, citizenship, or ability to pay. Participating hospitals may not transfer or discharge patients needing emergency treatment except with the informed consent or stabilization of the patient or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment.

Illegals generally aren't aware of this law and because of this they often present to the ED critically ill and/or incapacitated. Unfortunate because it creates greater cost in the long run.



Are you sure they don't accept citizens? I suspect they treat the uninsured which is often the undocumented. For doctors and nurses attending such clinics is often contractually obligated volunteering. Programs like this save money in the long run by providing preventative care.

I replied with a link already,did you read the link?

[Richard]

Replying to my own post to follow up on this story. It just gets more awful.

Please take time to read this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/29/u...ed-action.html

To briefly summarize: Maria Isabel Bueso suffers from MPS-6, a rare autosomal recessive genetic disorder. When she was seven years old she was asked to come to the US from Guatemala to assist in clinical trials to develop treatment for her condition. Her participation led to a treatment both saving her life and benefiting Americans stricken with the disorder. She has been productive despite her condition. Last year, she graduated summa cum laude from California State University with her BS degree. She is not "illegal." She didn't sneak into the country. She isn't sponging off the government. Her family lives in a middle-class neighborhood in Concord, Calif., in a house her parents bought and renovated to accommodate their daughter’s wheelchair. They did not expect to leave the country, having won permission to stay every time they applied for an extension.

Last week she received a notice that she must leave the country within 30 days. This is literally a death sentence.

The question was still not answered,which of the following did she receive

A order of deportation
A finial order of deportation

It is not that complicated

My guess is she received an order of deportation,which gives them 30 days to self deport or hire an attorney,she can and will,but maybe not because it is apparent that her family has resources,receive free legal representation and can drag it out up to 10 years,her case will be heard in front of a judge and he alone will make that decision.

If it was a finial order of deportation,then she has already gone before the judge and all ready ordered to self deport within 30 days,so she would have already known the results years ago.

As citizens her parents that purchased and renovated a house,how come they did not apply for her citizenship as a direct relation.

Granted it sounds way better saying it is a death sentence.

[Shelby_]

It looks like they found a leaker in the White House,it pretty sad that she was given an opportunity and she chose to use it for her personal agenda,I hope they can find federal charges to place on her,like treason.

Westerhout reportedly shared information with the reporters about the Trump family and other affairs in the White House.

Some questioned her loyalty to the president after a recent book about the White House reported that she cried in anguish in 2016 when the election results rolled in.

https://conservativefighters.org/new...the-president/

I smell a book deal coming........

[Richard]

I smell a book deal coming........

Yea that will be next,How my time under the Trump Administration triggered me so much I now need 20 years of intense therapy.

[Shelby_]

Well said.
You know she just discovered the garbage disposal and has decided that it is not climate appropriate,and you guys find her normal and Trump whacked out???

You do know she was joking don't you?

Disposals were not allowed in NYC apartments until the late 90's and even after they became legal they were cost prohibitive. Even now only 1% of apartments have them. They're still illegal in restaurants.

Frankly I don't know what people do with food waste. Flush it down the toilet?

[Jimaz]

CHEETO CHRIST STUPID-CZAR - Randy Rainbow Song Parody

[jcole]

CHEETO CHRIST STUPID-CZAR - Randy Rainbow Song Parody

And I thought I loved "Herod's Song" before...

[Shelby_]

I love Randy Rainbow. Check out She Was SIXTEEN GOING ON SEVENTEEN [[Roy Moore Was 32).

[bust]

I would suspect the missing key is how will it be paid for?

That's what makes a hash of everything. Assuming it was done entirely through taxes. It would likely mean between 2.5 Trillion and 3.5 Trillion per year.

Thanks for your account of the Canadian system. But your estimates of how much a similar system in the US would cost don't paint the full picture. They make it seem much more costly than it would be in reality.

Why? Because your estimate considers only how much the government would spend to provide the insurance, not how much we spend already, nor how much would be saved in reduced costs. At least according to researchers who have dug into this deeply.

The costs of the current system it would replace must not be ignored. They are paid for by a combination of the government [[taxes), employers, and largely, everyday Americans -- and we already pay a ton. $3.2 trillion in 2017 according to a study from the Political Economy Research Institute at the University of Massachusetts. Far more than any other nation, and more than twice as much per capita as Canada, according to Johns Hopkins.

When a renter paying $1000 per month moves into a $1100 apartment, the effect on their budget would be $100, not $1100 in higher costs.

Here are the two important questions to consider:

1) How much more or less will it cost than we already spend?
2) How will it affect care?

Research from across the political spectrum indicates our healthcare "rent" would go down.

This topic deserves a thread of its own. I've started it, and completed my post there...

How to Fix our Healthcare System: Medicare for All? A Public Option? Other Ideas?
https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...on-Other-Ideas

[oladub]

Shelby, To guesstimate how much it costs taxpayers just to educate the children of illegal non-citizens annually I used the following figures.
4.5M anchor babies who were born here and are considered citizens plus 2M undocumented children times the $13,487 average taxpayer cost per public school student for one year in grades 1-12 times 2/3 because 1/3 of children up to age 18 are too young for school. I didn't count kindergarten to offset dropouts. That's a rough figure. It could be more accurate if Democrats allowed us to find out with census questions but California might lose Representatives to places like Michigan.

6.5m illegal non-citzens' children x $13,847 x 2/3 = $60B/year

Thats just for grades 1-12 eduction assuming there are no special education needs like teaching English. Anchor babies have access to free medical care and some other benefits as citizens.

Illegal citizens contribute $11.6B of federal and state tax revenue [[2012) which doesn't even begin to pay for their children's' eduction.

I disagree with you about Americans being unwilling to work. Americans will do any kind of work but not necessarily for illegal non-citizen caste wages. That's what you are supporting - a caste system which allows cheating employers to pocket profit while taxpayers have to subsidize their profiteering with educational and social services for their employees. Union meatpackers and union roofers are a thing of the past. You trash unions too. Something to think about this Labor Day. Slaves used to make things cheaper too but that isn't a good argument.

I thought that you brought up an interesting question I hadn't considered before regarding the attitudes of immigrant children [[me) vs. 12th. generation [[non-Native-American) Americans. I've never seen any studies regarding this. In my case, I listened to first hand hunger stories from both sides of my family, of life in the depression, the costs of WWII, and the struggle to adjust to a new country winding up with union trade and factory jobs providing a little more than enough. I lived in neighborhoods of such people. Shorthand - they are lower middle class 'Reagan Democrats'. They really don't want to have someone give away what they struggled over a couple of generations to attain. I don't think my relatives voted for Reagan but they did vote for Eisenhower. My grandmother had a photo of John Kennedy next to a photo of Pope Pius. The ever Waspy Elizabeth Warren lived in a similar environment to my own and wound up with an opposite viewpoint. But to possibly sustain your conjecture, she, like you, is one of those 12th generation Americans. Maybe after some generations of having full stomachs, my descendants can relax and start giving away other people's stuff too.

One is not solely a product of one's upbringing of course. I did have two economics courses by a Professor Mandelstam at MSU who taught 100% supply and demand - something Democrats don't acknowledge. With immigrant, legal and otherwise, levels at near historic highs and about 90,000 illegal non-citizens slithering past ICE every month, I'm wondering how we are going to employ Americans let alone huge numbers undereducated illegal non-citizens when we have our next recession compounded with computerization and robotics decimating the job market. This huge influx of labor has stymied wages. That's supply and demand. Put together a recession reducing job numbers with an increased labor supply seems like a recipe for mass poverty.

I am obviously not as sanguine as you about high immigration. You wrote, "I am not troubled or concerned about immigrants coming to America, even a little bit." [[post 3323)

I've gone way too long----

[Zacha341]

^^^ Compelling points. It boils down to illegals diverting resources on many levels and our lack of priorities. Certainly not a desired outcome for Detroit [[or so we claim), if we can but look at outcomes down the road!

Per basic reasoning, or lack thereof: Somehow the basic outcome [[diminished/ diverted resources) has become abstract to apprehend beyond a reasonable amount of nuance. As I've said before, if we have such abundance to reward illegals, why are so many US citizens suffering/ lacking in services?

Per the standard poli-tricks: There are those on the left and the right desiring illegal immigration, their continued entry and flaunting our of laws. Understanding this helps remove the need to justify their by-pass of our standing immigration laws on the basis of party! No need be obliged to carry-the-water for either respective of this issue.

Per this POTUS: The presence of the Trump type is why [[in part) some illegal immigrants are more bold in their presentation to enter the US. He's their leverage of justification; as it's quite evident that segments of the US pop and politic will defend illegals in reflexive apposition to the Trump factor alone.

As so embroiled, we forge ahead, forgetting the first cause and reason for immigration law. Laws that most nations retain and uphold without apology.

Indeed, we will live long with what we allow: beyond Trump.

[oladub]

Zacha, regarding your POTUS comment in post 3347, I agree but even Trump could be doing better. The weight of the federal government should be directed more at illegal employers. In recent raids where 680 workers were arrested in Mississippi, not one employer was arrested and I'm not aware of any penalties placed on their companies. The couldn't have been so stupid as to not realize they were hiring illegals on a massive scale. If Trump's DOJ would have arrested some executives and corporate officers, they would think twice about who they hire. When the cost of hiring Americans or buying labor saving equipment becomes cheaper than hiring illegal labor, illegal immigration will decrease and we won't have to buy an expensive wall. I'm guessing that even Trump is afraid of angering campaign contributors.