Welcome To Trump World

[Zacha341]

One person argues that we're meddling. Another says we are abandoning.

The abruptness of this change is the real kicker. So too will be the consequences!

The Turks have never been not formidable.

Let's not get back into another war of Gallipoli with Trump as then the young, and foolish Churchill!

But that's all that history nonsense, who even recalls?

[oladub]

For almost 17 years, the United States has waged a “war on terror” that, by any rational measure, has backfired catastrophically. There is more terrorist activity today than there was when we invaded Afghanistan in 2001.

https://www.thenation.com/article/am...k-endless-war/

[Shelby_]

Shelby, I disagree. I'm old school. I think civilians should determine international policy. Perhaps you provided the reasons. Also, foreign policy under W. Bush and Obama has been a mess; as bad as anything since Johnson's Vietnam War. We have been in Iraq since 2003 and it has cost the lives of U.S. 3,598 soldiers and another 1,554 contractors at a cost of between $1.7-6T. The latter estimate includes things like interest and future expected veteran medical bills. The Afghanistan war has cost 2,419 U.S. lives and about $738B. Now you want to keep 150 Americans in an announced war zone as triggers hoping that Erdogan bombs around them. All these plans and alliances have been working so well except for all the dead Americans and the trillions of dollars. And millions of refugees in Turkey, Europe, Lebanon, and Syria for good measure to sell some new wars. Your plans are working so well. Obama did succeed in Libya and removing Khaddafi at the cost of wrecking that country. Clinton bombed Serbia for 78 days straight but at least didn't kill any Americans. Trump blew up some Syrian airport hangars. Somehow, after all the death and destruction, mostly under W.Bush and Obama, I doubt that these policies have reduced resentment.

Sentences in your post that I made bold suggest you didn't get much out of your AP civics class or your teacher was from some banana republic. It's total hubris to suggest that we are going "to fix their problems" in the middle east. Sunnis and Shiites have been fighting each other since almost the birth of Islam for starters.

Please reread what I wrote. I said, "Our mission in the middle east is not now, now was it ever, to fix their problems."

I suppose I could make a derisive comment about your high school Lit & Comp teacher, but why bother?

[oladub]

Shelby, you're sort of right. I concede your point up to a point. You wrote, "Our mission in the middle east is not now, now was it ever, to fix their problems." - whatever that meant. I will now assume you meant 'nor' instead of 'now' although you didn't define what "our mission in the middle east" is. That's something you could develop. Either way, the U.S. is not going to change Mid-East culture no matter how much it costs us although most Democratic presidential candidates want to import mid east culture.

It was amazing how well Erdogan shut up European criticism of his invasion of Syria when he said he was going to point the 3.6M Syrian refugees in the direction of Europe instead of home to Syria if Europe so much as called this an invasion. Erdogan also said he would take over prisons and try to get other countries to take back their ISIS prisoners. One prison was said to have received bomb damage but that might not have been intentional. A Chinese embassy was bombed when Clinton was bombing Serbia. Accidents happen. Some Kurds suggested they may be looking for a new ally; maybe Syria or Russia. The Kurdish area of Syria is part of Syria after all. Some of the Syrians who are forced back into the border zone of Syria will probably instead go back to their home towns and be part of the rebuilding effort; their alternative hopes of life in Sweden gone.

Neocon congressional Republicans might try to pass a bill sanctioning Turkey for its invasion. Liz Cheney is leading the charge. Let's watch to see if Democrats will join with neocon Republicans. Trump remains the only President to not engage in a new war of major act of war since Carter.

How convenient it is to forget that the larger problem in Syria was caused by Obama's Kerry and Hillary State Department policies which allowed ISIS to grow in an attempt to overthrow Assad but instead brought in Russia and resulted in death, destruction and refugees. The Turkish border invasion and repatriation of Syrian refugees is a subset of the consequences of mostly Democratic policies also supported by neocon Republicans.

[Canadian Visitor]

Trump remains the only President to not engage in a new war of major act of war since Carter.

Hmmm.

https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/...sources-604377

For how long might that remain the case?

[Shelby_]

To restate my original point:

Pulling SOF from Syria is a huge mistake that will have far reaching consequences that President Trump doesn't, or more likely cannot comprehend.

In the future we will be less safe and we have DJT to thank for it.

Trump says: “I was elected on getting out of these ridiculous endless wars” that have left America “bogged down, watching over a quagmire.”

Many who support his action claim he is keeping his promises. His promises are based in ignorance.

His promises ignore facts and are, in Trump's vernacular, bullshit:

Currently the U.S. has approximately 20,000 soldiers spread out through Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

These forces are not engaged in "forever wars." They are engaged in a noncombat mission known as "train, advise and assist." As I mentioned yesterday, the larger goal is defeating, or at least controlling terrorism by, with, and through partners by building coalitions [[BPC)

Prior to Trump's election, I understand why he would see things the way he does. However, after becoming president, he had unencumbered access to DOD and Pentagon advisors who would have explained why and where we have troops. He had the facts and despite that still did the thing that was in his own best interest [[appeasing his base), rather than doing what was in the best interest of humanity.

Anecdotally, aside the 20,000 in the middle east, we have about 37,950 U.S. troops in Germany, 12,750 in Italy, 3200, in Spain, 9300 in the UK, 53,900 in Japan, 28,500 in South Korea, 6000 at Gitmo and thousands more I'm forgetting.

oladub wrote:
We have been in Iraq since 2003 and it has cost the lives of U.S. 3,598 soldiers...The Afghanistan war has cost 2,419 U.S. lives.

Since 2006 15,851 active-duty personnel and mobilized reservists have died while serving in in the U.S. armed forces. The majority, nearly 75%, died in training accidents. Should we stop training?

oladub wrote:
Trump remains the only President to not engage in a new war of major act of war since Carter.

Trump has created a situation that future leaders will have to deal with for years to come. This action has undone years of work soldiers did in the middle east [[me included) to build partnerships and earn trust. I have yet to encounter a veteran who agrees with Trump's "decision."

oladub wrote:
How convenient it is to forget that the larger problem in Syria was caused by Obama's Kerry and Hillary State Department policies which allowed ISIS to grow in an attempt to overthrow Assad but instead brought in Russia and resulted in death, destruction and refugees. The Turkish border invasion and repatriation of Syrian refugees is a subset of the consequences of mostly Democratic policies also supported by neocon Republicans.

I didn't forget anything.Digging up past events that cannot be changed and bitching about them ad nauseam is counter productive though.

Trump has taken a bad situation that was starting to come together and made it forever TARFU.

oladub wrote:
I'm quick to give Trump credit for bringing troops back home.

And yet he has deployed 3,000 to Saudi Arabia to protect oil. I hope you are just as quick to criticize Trump for that.

BTW Trump hasn't brought them home from Syria. They were pulled back and are sitting in a safe zone, devastated that they cannot assist their allies for whom they had great respect.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Well stated. I concur, particularly that last paragraph.

And especially Trumps seeming lack of understanding the larger picture.

We look all at once stupid, weak, hasty and bumbling.

Great!

[oladub]

To restate my original point:

Pulling SOF from Syria is a huge mistake that will have far reaching consequences that President Trump doesn't, or more likely cannot comprehend.

In the future we will be less safe and we have DJT to thank for it.

Trump says: “I was elected on getting out of these ridiculous endless wars” that have left America “bogged down, watching over a quagmire.”

Many who support his action claim he is keeping his promises. His promises are based in ignorance.

His promises ignore facts and are, in Trump's vernacular, bullshit:

And yet he has deployed 3,000 to Saudi Arabia to protect oil. I hope you are just as quick to criticize Trump for that.

BTW Trump hasn't brought them home from Syria. They were pulled back and are sitting in a safe zone, devastated that they cannot assist their allies for whom they had great respect.

^^Name calling and opinions.^^ Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees later, we are in quagmire created mostly by Obama and W. Bush who are guilty of all the things you imagine Trump might do. Trump has brought about half the troops home from Syria. He gets a lot of resistance from people like you when he removes any and then you criticize him for not having getting them out as fast as he wanted.

U.S. troops shouldn't be sent to Saudi Arabia either. Trump has no business sending them there. Like in Syria, no good can come of it. I'm consistent. You aren't. Let Europe and Japan do the heavy lifting. They use more Saudi oil than we do.

the U.S. has approximately 20,000 soldiers spread out through Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

These forces are not engaged in "forever wars." They are engaged in a noncombat mission known as "train, advise and assist." As I mentioned yesterday, the larger goal is defeating, or at least controlling terrorism by, with, and through partners by building coalitions [[BPC)

Prior to Trump's election, I understand why he would see things the way he does. However, after becoming president, he had unencumbered access to DOD and Pentagon advisors who would have explained why and where we have troops. He had the facts and despite that still did the thing that was in his own best interest [[appeasing his base), rather than doing what was in the best interest of humanity.

Bring some of those troops home. "Forever wars" suffices after 17 or 18 years. "For almost 17 years, the United States has waged a “war on terror” that, by any rational measure, has backfired catastrophically. There is more terrorist activity today than there was when we invaded Afghanistan in 2001." -The Nation 6/18/18

Handing over international policy to military experts seems creepy to me. Dan Wesson was on the money with the Doctor Strangelove video. 'Trust the military. We know what's good for you' somehow reminds me of a Sartre play I once saw. It began in early 30's Spain and just a couple of police would be seen at the beginning of the play. By the end of the play, police and military uniforms were all over and everyone else had lost their freedoms.

[QUOTE=Shelby_;581193] Anecdotally, aside the 20,000 in the middle east, we have about 37,950 U.S. troops in Germany, 12,750 in Italy, 3200, in Spain, 9300 in the UK, 53,900 in Japan, 28,500 in South Korea, 6000 at Gitmo and thousands more I'm forgetting.

Since 2006 15,851 active-duty personnel and mobilized reservists have died while serving in in the U.S. armed forces. The majority, nearly 75%, died in training accidents. Should we stop training?

We would be training anyway. The option is to fight undeclared, creeping mission, never ending wars that have resulted in thousands of American deaths since Korea. 60,000 just in Vietnam. That's what I'm addressing.

Trump has created a situation that future leaders will have to deal with for years to come. This action has undone years of work soldiers did in the middle east [[me included) to build partnerships and earn trust. I have yet to encounter a veteran who agrees with Trump's "decision."

we are still dealing with situations caused by W. Bush and Obama. Military personnel aren't supposed to be insulting their Commander in Chief. I've talked to a lot of vets who describe the wars they've been sent off to in less favorable terms. How much longer do you think we should have stayed in Vietnam? I'm sure there were some vets who made friends and respected their allies there too. Life goes on. Vietnam is more prosperous than ever. I guess they didn't need us dropping bombs on them.

I didn't forget anything.Digging up past events that cannot be changed and bitching about them ad nauseam is counter productive though.

Trump has taken a bad situation that was starting to come together and made it forever TARFU.

I disagree. Take off your blinders. The big picture has to include which leaders got us into the mess in Syria, questions why we are stationing troops in Syria after our goal has been accomplished and recognizes that the military solutions the McCains of this country implemented failed and probably won't work the next time either. Those of you who advocate casual military solutions should take some responsibility for the thousands of American deaths, hundreds of thousands of dead Arabs and millions of refugees caused by your failed policies.

[oladub]

To restate my original point:

Pulling SOF from Syria is a huge mistake that will have far reaching consequences that President Trump doesn't, or more likely cannot comprehend.

In the future we will be less safe and we have DJT to thank for it.

Trump says: “I was elected on getting out of these ridiculous endless wars” that have left America “bogged down, watching over a quagmire.”

Many who support his action claim he is keeping his promises. His promises are based in ignorance.

His promises ignore facts and are, in Trump's vernacular, bullshit:

And yet he has deployed 3,000 to Saudi Arabia to protect oil. I hope you are just as quick to criticize Trump for that.

BTW Trump hasn't brought them home from Syria. They were pulled back and are sitting in a safe zone, devastated that they cannot assist their allies for whom they had great respect.

^^Name calling and opinions.^^ Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees later, we are in quagmire created mostly by Obama and W. Bush who are guilty of all the things you imagine Trump might do. Trump has brought about half the troops home from Syria. He gets a lot of resistance from people like you when he removes any and then you criticize him for not having getting them out as fast as he wanted.

U.S. troops shouldn't be sent to Saudi Arabia either. Trump has no business sending them there. Like in Syria, no good can come of it. I'm consistent. You aren't. Let Europe and Japan do the heavy lifting. They use more Saudi oil than we do.

the U.S. has approximately 20,000 soldiers spread out through Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

These forces are not engaged in "forever wars." They are engaged in a noncombat mission known as "train, advise and assist." As I mentioned yesterday, the larger goal is defeating, or at least controlling terrorism by, with, and through partners by building coalitions [[BPC)

Prior to Trump's election, I understand why he would see things the way he does. However, after becoming president, he had unencumbered access to DOD and Pentagon advisors who would have explained why and where we have troops. He had the facts and despite that still did the thing that was in his own best interest [[appeasing his base), rather than doing what was in the best interest of humanity.

Bring some of those troops home. "Forever wars" suffices after 17 or 18 years. "For almost 17 years, the United States has waged a “war on terror” that, by any rational measure, has backfired catastrophically. There is more terrorist activity today than there was when we invaded Afghanistan in 2001." -The Nation 6/18/18

Handing over international policy to military experts seems creepy to me. Dan Wesson was on the money with the Doctor Strangelove video. 'Trust the military. We know what's good for you' somehow reminds me of a Sartre play I once saw. It began in early 30's Spain and just a couple of police would be seen at the beginning of the play. By the end of the play, police and military uniforms were all over and everyone else had lost their freedoms.

Anecdotally, aside the 20,000 in the middle east, we have about 37,950 U.S. troops in Germany, 12,750 in Italy, 3200, in Spain, 9300 in the UK, 53,900 in Japan, 28,500 in South Korea, 6000 at Gitmo and thousands more I'm forgetting.

Since 2006 15,851 active-duty personnel and mobilized reservists have died while serving in in the U.S. armed forces. The majority, nearly 75%, died in training accidents. Should we stop training?

We would be training anyway. The option is to fight undeclared, creeping mission, never ending wars that have resulted in thousands of American deaths since Korea. 60,000 just in Vietnam. That's what I'm addressing.

Trump has created a situation that future leaders will have to deal with for years to come. This action has undone years of work soldiers did in the middle east [[me included) to build partnerships and earn trust. I have yet to encounter a veteran who agrees with Trump's "decision."

We are still dealing with situations caused by W. Bush and Obama. Military personnel aren't supposed to be insulting their Commander in Chief. I've talked to a lot of vets who describe the wars they've been sent off to in less favorable terms. How much longer do you think we should have stayed in Vietnam? I'm sure there were some vets who made friends and respected their allies there too. Life goes on. Vietnam is more prosperous than ever. I guess they didn't need us dropping bombs on them.

I didn't forget anything.Digging up past events that cannot be changed and bitching about them ad nauseam is counter productive though.

Trump has taken a bad situation that was starting to come together and made it forever TARFU.

I disagree. Take off your blinders. The big picture has to include which leaders got us into the mess in Syria, questions why we are stationing troops in Syria after our goal has been accomplished and recognizes that the military solutions the McCains of this country implemented failed and probably won't work the next time either. Those of you who advocate casual military solutions should take some responsibility for the thousands of American deaths, hundreds of thousands of dead Arabs and millions of refugees caused by your failed policies.

[Dan Wesson]

Matthew 10:22

22and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Smiley, smug sarcastic face...

[Dan Wesson]

As a veteran I am horrified that this is happening. By abandoning the Kurds, we're abandoning an ally who stood with us, even when we were wrong. I'm sure American soldiers who fought side by side with the Kurds are overwhelmed with shame, disgust, and frustration.

It leaves me shaking my head that Trump, who never misses an opportunity to criticize Barack Obama, is making the same mistake Obama did.

??????? again????

[Dan Wesson]

The U.S. has now betrayed the Kurds a minimum of eight times over the past 100 years. The reasons for this are straightforward.
The Kurds are an ethnic group of about 40 million people centered at the intersection of Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq. Many naturally want their own state. The four countries in which they live naturally do not want that to happen.

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/...rump-betrayal/

[Shelby_]

Again what? If you're accusing me of something, you should come out and say it.

This is an article you found online and you're hinting that I've stolen intellectual property.

I'm curious to know why you didn't provide a link to the article itself? It's a lot easier to c & p the link, yet you chose to take a screen shot, download it to your device, then up load it here. Why might that be?

Don't bother answering. It was a rhetorical question.

Dan didn't link to the article because anyone reading it would see that his suggestion that I plagiarized was bogus.

Don't take my word for it though. Read the article yourselves:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9149711.html

Dan: ad hominem is for pussies. You can't make a decent argument to counter mine, so instead you attack me. It makes you look desperate. I'm sure you can do better.

[Shelby_]

oladub: You've right. My belief that it is strategically and morally wrong to abandon the Kurds is an opinion, but it is an opinion based on experience.

I see no need to keep going over the same ground. I've clearly stated my position. We will never reach any kind of agreement. In the most simplified terms, I believe we should keep our word and honor our commitments. You think it's okay to break our word and abandon our commitments.

[Richard]

What was our word and our commitments?

In order to save America lives the decision to use the Kurds was made.

Somebody needs to provide the link or wording of the deal that was made to the Kurds where we gave them a lifetime commitment of protection by the United States military.

They wanted to get ISIL,so we provided them the means to do that,they did that, commitment over.

Sense our troops were there in a advisory capacity and providing airstrikes.

1000 Troops on the ground? For every 1 fighting soldier it takes 3 additional support staff,so how many were actually involved in side by side fighting,very little because they were in an advisory capacity.

It’s a good thing we do not wage war on personal emotions,by that call we should now be moving thousands of troops and equipment over there in order to start fighting the Turks,or who ever else may go against the Kurds.

For that matter the Kurds would like thier own state so let just take Syria and give it to the Kurds plus maintain a military presence there forever,just in case.

The mission was simple,use the Kurds to go after ISIL,they did it,mission over,time to go home and give Obama a Nobel peace prize for engineering it all.

[jcole]

....
The mission was simple,use the Kurds to go after ISIL,they did it,mission over,time to go home and give Obama a Nobel peace prize for engineering it all.

And now...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9152536.html

Escape comes after Trump cleared way for Erdogan to launch offensive on Kurds

[Zacha341]

Ok, now the the ISIS prisoners have been released, what?

Who has the twitter response for how that is going to work out?

[Dan Wesson]

Sorry Shelby, you lost me with the comment below. It was then I started discounting your posts

LOL Intelligent Trump supporters. That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

Then when I became aware of your penchant for lifting thoughts and words without attribution the discount became deeper.

Am I accusing you? Not really. No. It's just more of an observation.

Carry on Shelby. Press on regardless. Endeavor to persevere.

Out.

[Richard]

And now...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9152536.html

5 escaped,that’s enough to start a major offensive,call in the marines.

You really think the Kurds are going to allow the ones that sell thier women to walk like that.

My guess is they let 5 walk to put pressure on the US to put more troops in.

Push comes to shove they will use a CIA supplied Turk or otherwise hard to trace missile and level the place with everybody in it before they let any walk.

Plausible deniability- the Turks will say they did not launch or the missile malfunctioned and nobody will be able prove different.

Or maybe they can have Jim Jones provide some refreshments.

The pentagons only purpose in life is war.

What have I posted that was incorrect?

Our soldiers stood and bled alongside of the Chinese and killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese,the war ended,we democratized Japan While Truman allowed the Chinese to go communist leaving hundreds of thousand Chinese out to dry.

War is war and the game continues,you cannot take anything at face value and you are told what they want you to hear,do you really think Trump just woke up and does the things he does on a whim.

There is a lot more going on then we will ever know.

We cannot go against Turkey which is a Nato ally.
The Kurds are also our allies.

So the United States is going to do what they are going to do without looking like we are involved,or manipulate outcomes without being involved in the surface.

Sryia has Russia in thier corner,you do not think that Putin would have jumped into the Frey,they already have assets on the ground and could have stopped Turkey from invading,but they did not,why?

We used the Kurds as an ally.

The Turks view the Kurds as terrorists because of the violence they cause in Turkey,so we went after ISIL because they are terrorist now the Turks are going after the Kurds because they are the terrorist to them.

That is a 2000 year old shitstorm that we do not need to be in the middle of.


It is not Kurdish land,the only reason they were there was because of the civil war,they cannot give us permission.

It is Syrian territory and land,but yet they are standing down.
The Russians are standing down,we also need to stay out of the rink and who are we anyways to tell the Syrians that we want to wage war on thier soil.

Thats like Canada and Mexico borrowing Montana in order to wage war.

Our only mission there was to wage war against the terrorists nothing more nothing less,not to get involved in a non related pissing match on soil that we have no sovereignty over.

[Shelby_]

Sorry Shelby, you lost me with the comment below. It was then I started discounting your posts

Originally Posted by Shelby_ LOL Intelligent Trump supporters. That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

Then when I became aware of your penchant for lifting thoughts and words without attribution the discount became deeper.

Am I accusing you? Not really. No. It's just more of an observation.

Carry on Shelby. Press on regardless. Endeavor to persevere.

Out.

Rereading that comment, I understand why you took offense. It was inappropriate on multiple levels: it was arrogant and unkind. It goes against the way I was raised. If my mother were alive, she would be disappointed in me. That's a thought that fills me with shame. I am no better than anyone else and I thank you for reminding me of that fact. I sincerely apologize to Trump supporters and especially Richard.

However, I'm left wondering why you didn't call me on it at the time I wrote it, rather than making a snap judgement about me? That would have been the adult thing to do. I probably would have said yeah, you're right. It wasn't cool and I'm sorry.

The same holds true for the assumption you made based on specious evidence that I have a "penchant for lifting thoughts and words without attribution." Rather than trying to discredit me in a manner reminiscent of junior high school, why not state your observation and ask me what I have to say for myself? Together your actions were immature and judgemental.

I make mistakes everyday, but I don't have a problem admitting to them. When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong. Mistakes are learning experiences that cumulatively help us become better people.

[Richard]

The problem is with manipulation and the media using it to push a partisan agenda,it is dangerous.

We never have had “troops” on the ground in Syria.

But all you hear is Trump pulling the troops out that were fighting alongside the Kurds.

What we did do was provide the Kurds with air support,weapons and intelligence in strictly a advisory capacity.

Special ops units were in country but thier mission was targets at the top and not alongside of the Kurds.

I would like them to show 1 service member that was actually involved in side by side fighting with the Kurds,my guess is they will not.

We had no right to wage direct military actions on somebody else’s land,what we had was a tolerance from Syria because of the common enemy ISIL,Syria also had no qualms with allowing the Kurds to fight against ISIL,so basically everybody used everybody in order to obtain a common goal.

That goal was achieved and now it is back to business as usual of them killing everybody that has a different religious view.

It does not matter if it is Trump in the White House or Mickey Mouse,this day was coming and there was Nothing anybody could have done to alter it without actually going into full scale war.

Nothing has changed,we are still providing weapons and funding to the Kurds but we cannot do direct military actions unrelated to ISIL,we have no legal ground.

The only way is to declare a war of sorts and then pick a side.

The United States and the Kurds against the Syrian government,Russia and Turkey.

That is not happening.

The bigger question is what is our moral and legal obligations in the world when it comes to religious wars and genocide.

Burma set about removing millions of Muslims that had be there for 100s of years,when the military came to your town and you were still there,you were dead,men,women,children.

The UN was appalled but nobody did nothing,it was and is still being allowed,but yet when the same genocide is happening in the Congo and Africa UN is providing troops from many different countries.

China keeps thier Muslim population confined to a territory that they are not allowed to leave.

France is shutting down thier immigration and refugee relocation while they regroup,many other European countries are seriously considering thier immigration policies.

We put people in place in Hong Kong before thier riots started but you can bet China will clamp down and millions will either disappear or flee.

We talk about war with China,Russia,Korea etc. but the real issue in the next decade is going to be what our world role in stopping the upcoming genocides and who we support and what role we will play.

The world is regressing back into the religious wars of the past.

[oladub]

oladub: You've right. My belief that it is strategically and morally wrong to abandon the Kurds is an opinion, but it is an opinion based on experience.

I see no need to keep going over the same ground. I've clearly stated my position. We will never reach any kind of agreement. In the most simplified terms, I believe we should keep our word and honor our commitments. You think it's okay to break our word and abandon our commitments.

I'm not aware of "our word and commitments". Richard suggested that you provide a link to them. We did however provide a lot of free weaponry to the Kurds enabling the Kurds to recapture their territory from ISIS. I doubt that we promised to keep 50 troops on the border as clickbait for going to war with our NATO ally Turkey.

In post 3579 I wrote, "Some Kurds suggested they may be looking for a new ally; maybe Syria or Russia. The Kurdish area of Syria is part of Syria after all." Today, we have some good news. Syrian Kurds went to the government of Syria and Syria now says it will send its own troops to the Turkish border to defend it's territory from this Turkish invasion."

[oladub]

Turkey-Syria offensive: Syrian army heads north after Kurdish deal

The good news is that we no longer have any excuse to keep troops in Syria. Syrian Kurds are protected by the government of the country they live in instead of by U.S. troops and taxpayers. It's a win for Trump.

[Zacha341]

That factor does seem to emerge, doesn't it?!

[Richard]

This is how the world viewed the Kurds before

The Kurdistan Workers’ Party [[PKK) is an armed terrorist organization, listed as such by the United States and the European Union. Founded in 1974 and assuming paramilitary functions in 1984, the Marxist-Leninist and separatist PKK has used violence and terrorism in pursuit of Kurdish secession from the Republic of Turkey. PKK actions and terror tactics have led to tens of thousands of military and civilian deaths over the past decades and have prevented lasting stability in southeastern Turkey.The U.S. and Europe have given cooperation and assistance to Turkey in its anti-PKK efforts. U.S. intelligence enabled the capture of PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan in 1999. In 2007, collaboration between Turkey, the U.S., and Iraq led to multiple airstrikes against the PKK in northern Iraq. In 2012, Senator Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut sponsored a Senate Resolution condemning the PKK’s terrorist attacks, propaganda, and drug smuggling activities and reaffirmed the United States’ commitment to helping Turkey put an end to PKK terrorism. The U.S. and the EU both continue to classify the PKK as a terrorist organization.

https://www.tc-america.org/issues-information/pkk-terrorism-30.htm

So I am thinking the Obama conversation went like this.

Look Turkey,Russia,Iran,Sryia

Let us use these guys for a few years in order to beat down ISIL,which was a common enemy to everybody,then when we are done you can go back to whatever it is you do.

Everybody else,what is in it for us? Obama

Well I just happen to have these C130 cargo planes loaded with cash and military hardware,how much time does that buy us?