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  1. #1
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    Default MI Recount in Detroit and Wayne County

    This thread may go south pretty quickly but I wonder if anyone has read any information on presidential vote 'under' voting?

    Sometimes, a voter may (not too often) opt not to vote for president but come to vote for other offices such as senate, governor, house of reps, etc.

    However, in MI there were no senate or governor races.

    Therefore one would assume few would come out to vote and then not vote for a presidential candidate, esp. given that there were also minor party candidates.

    Any idea about the number of ballots without a selection for president in either Detroit or Wayne County or both. Or even the state of Michigan.

    Anyone remember what the vote percentages in Detroit were for Clinton, Trump, Johnson and Stein?

  2. #2
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    Default

    Are they only recounting the presidential vote or does it apply to other down ballot votes as well?

  3. #3

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    Commenting on the original question, I think its quite reasonable that someone would come out to vote and not vote for President. I, for one, was torn about what to do, since I thought both of the major party candidates had very deep and serious flaws.


    1953
    Last edited by admin; December-07-16 at 09:26 AM.

  4. #4
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    I just read the Detnews article about all of the problems there were in Detroit, Wayne Co, Flint, etc. and how they are not able to reconcile numbers and just, I guess, kind of gave up and reported the best they could.

    A long (very) long time ago, when I was at the Census Bureau we did an evaluation study of the decennial census. We reconciled census forms with respondent from the Current Population Survey (the household survey which gives us the monthly unemployment rate). The purpose was whether or not the information collected by an interviewer (CPS) matched the mail-back census form for April (of the census year). If the Census form said John Smith, Mary Smith and daughter, Joan Smith, but the CPS interviewer found that Mrs. Smith sister, Karen, was living there, then we have a suspected problem.

    This might be particularly relevant in a city such as Detroit where households simply may not have returned their form. Or maybe a house which appeared unoccupied was found by an interviewer to be occupied. Or for one reason or another, someone was not listed on the census form who should have been.

    I was hoping with the recount if they could literally precinct by precinct REPLICATE the reported count sent to the state. If the reported count was: Clinton 400, Trump 100, then I'd like to see a hand count of ballots come up with the same number.

    This, to me, was an EVALUATION STUDY, i.e., are the reported numbers reliable or is the error factor high. The simplest, but not easiest, or cost effective, recount strategy would be to hand count the ballots and then have them recounted again by another election official and see if all the tallies agree.

    In Florida, 2000, it wasn't simply 537 votes. There could have been errors in 5-digits either way. We have no idea if the 'errors' favored Bush or Gore.

    We need to do better with our elections. We just don't know when and where the next big mess will be.

    A little P.S., IF WI and Pa had gone Clinton, all hell would be breaking loose in MI today.

    Someone might discover that we have a lot of problems in our voting system which could, like 2000, effect the outcome of the election for the leader of the free world...
    Last edited by emu steve; December-05-16 at 05:23 PM.

  5. #5

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    emu steve.... I read this last week on one of the national "news" outlets (can we really call ANY of them news outlets anymore?)....

    And the number they reported was that there were 80,000 ballots in Michigan cast that had a blank in the presidential selection field.

  6. #6

    Default

    Yes, recount recount!! Let's see that voting system is not rigged.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emu steve View Post
    I just read the Detnews article about all of the problems there were in Detroit, Wayne Co, Flint, etc. and how they are not able to reconcile numbers and just, I guess, kind of gave up and reported the best they could.

    (snip)

    We need to do better with our elections. We just don't know when and where the next big mess will be. (snip)
    I too would like to see our elections handled better.

    I wish there was as much gusto behind election reform as there is behind voter ID laws.

    Easier, more reliable, and just fundamentally trustworthy elections benefit all of us.

  8. #8

    Default

    Yes indeed. Our patchwork of shoddy and poorly operated election systems is a national (and state and local) embarrassment in the U.S. I had thought, after the Bush-Gore fiasco, that some real systemic reform might be undertaken, but instead it immediately turned into the usual self-interested political cynicism and special-interest money grab.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    Yes, recount recount!! Let's see that voting system is not rigged.
    I see this more like an autopsy. The person is dead. We can't bring him back to life but can find learn a lot of what happened.

    Will we find tampering? IDK

    We we find shoddy equipment, policies and procedures? Probably.

    As far as the stakeholders:

    MI public officials, down to the grass roots folks who conduct the elections don't want to be embarrassed. A scanner jams and what happens?

    The Trump folks don't want anything casting doubt that they won MI.

    Lot of folks don't want this recount to go forward because of what we might learn about elections in MI (and elsewhere).

    I'm going geek on the election in MI: Trump won by 10K +/- 25K. I would be surprised to see an error factor of say 25K in an election with this many votes.

    If folks remember Florida 2000, apparently thousands of folks in one county apparently voted for Pat Buchanan and then Democrats because of a mis-alignment of the ballot and punch holes.

    So it was 'human error' because there was 'human error' in the design of the paper ballot.
    Last edited by emu steve; December-06-16 at 04:24 AM.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emu steve View Post
    If folks remember Florida 2000, apparently thousands of folks in one county apparently voted for Pat Buchanan and then Democrats because of a mis-alignment of the ballot and punch holes.
    It wasn't misalignment, it was the ballot design, the "butterfly ballot" that you are talking about. The elections officials tried to fit the whole ballot on one page. The ballot was then shown to local party bosses and they all OKed it. When the election came and Buchanan votes were unexpectedly high, the Dems wanted a revote.

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  11. #11

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    What I find ironic is, Trump preached voter fraud, cheating and tampering, throughout his whole campaign, but now he's trying to block any state that wants to have a recount. If he's confident he won the election legitimately, why fight the recounts? Let the chips fall, where they may.

  12. #12

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvidas View Post

    I would also if it was not pretty much a blantet lie.

    Michigan is a participant in the Real ID act enacted after 9-11 ,it does not disadvantage the groups that were listed because the act also provides a free service that helps with obtaining replacement SS cards,birth certificates and everything else needed to comply.

    Non citizens can also receive a ID that can be used to comply,it is a different color so as not to be confused when voting.

    So why did they print that knowing it is false?

  14. #14

    Default

    Several posts in this thread have been removed for being in violation of our rules -- name calling, ad hominem attacks, ranting and incivility.

    Some posts that were not in violation, but referred to or quoted the posts in violation have likewise been removed to scrub all context.

    As most involved in this uproar are long time members, you are aware that this type of discourse is not permitted and will be removed when reported or discovered.

    Kindly follow the rules, discuss the topic and not the members.
    Last edited by admin; December-07-16 at 09:28 AM.

  15. #15

    Default

    OK, fair enough, but it's too bad that Ray's pithy and to the point (and non-insulting) comment had to be removed.

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EastsideAl View Post
    OK, fair enough, but it's too bad that Ray's pithy and to the point (and non-insulting) comment had to be removed.
    I would have liked to seen it

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EastsideAl View Post
    OK, fair enough, but it's too bad that Ray's pithy and to the point (and non-insulting) comment had to be removed.
    December-05-16, 03:12 PM

    Ray1936
    Join Date Mar 2009 Posts 2,601


    EmuSteve said: "This thread may go south pretty quickly"

    Yup, it did.
    Last edited by admin; December-07-16 at 06:40 PM.

  18. #18

    Default

    It's over.

    Federal Judge has halted Michigan presidential election recount stating Jill Stein lacks standing.
    http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ount/95110008/

    Nonetheless the recount has IMO done a very important service in revealing flaws in the handling of our votes and their custody.

    This should prompt reform to guarantee that these mistake will be fixed and a future recount can be effected and our votes protected.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowell View Post
    It's over.

    Federal Judge has halted Michigan presidential election recount stating Jill Stein lacks standing.
    http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ount/95110008/

    Nonetheless the recount has IMO done a very important service in revealing flaws in the handling of our votes and their custody.

    This should prompt reform to guarantee that these mistake will be fixed and a future recount can be effected and our votes protected.
    Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid View Post
    What I find ironic is, Trump preached voter fraud, cheating and tampering, throughout his whole campaign, but now he's trying to block any state that wants to have a recount. If he's confident he won the election legitimately, why fight the recounts? Let the chips fall, where they may.
    Fighting stupidity that undermines confidence in elections is reasonable. Fights about voter fraud should occur before elections. We need a system where the winners and losers respect the results. R's didn't respect Obama. D's don't seem to be respecting Trump. Both are undermining democracy.

  21. #21
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    Default

    What makes our electoral system works is that despite problems we ASSUME that the amount of error is less than the margin of victory (or defeat).

    Of course that didn't happen in 2000; maybe not in 1960.

    In 2016 voters will have to make up their own minds.

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    Fighting stupidity that undermines confidence in elections is reasonable. Fights about voter fraud should occur before elections. We need a system where the winners and losers respect the results. R's didn't respect Obama. D's don't seem to be respecting Trump. Both are undermining democracy.
    The Green Party candidate is challenging the results (and also saying straight-out that she doesn't expect a recount to change the outcome), not the Democratic candidate or Democratic Party.

    The Dems haven't challenged the legitimacy or the results of the election.

    Trump was the only candidate who said that he wouldn't accept the results of the election if he didn't win.

    Clinton, Sanders, the DNC, the RNC, and all of the other Republican candidates said that they would respect the results of the election.

    Trump is the only candidate who was undermining the confidence in our democratic system. The Republicans may not respect Obama, but they didn't question the results or legitimacy of the elections. Except for Trump, of course, who famously challenged the legitimacy of Obama, with his promotion of the bullshit "birtherism" conspiracy theory that Obama had forged his birth certificate.

    It is incorrect and dangerous to say that both Republicans and Democrats are not respecting election outcomes and undermining our democracy. Other than our newly elected president, it is only the small radical fringe groups on the left and right that are doing this.

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erikd View Post
    The Green Party candidate is challenging the results (and also saying straight-out that she doesn't expect a recount to change the outcome), not the Democratic candidate or Democratic Party.

    The Dems haven't challenged the legitimacy or the results of the election.

    Trump was the only candidate who said that he wouldn't accept the results of the election if he didn't win.

    Clinton, Sanders, the DNC, the RNC, and all of the other Republican candidates said that they would respect the results of the election.

    Trump is the only candidate who was undermining the confidence in our democratic system. The Republicans may not respect Obama, but they didn't question the results or legitimacy of the elections. Except for Trump, of course, who famously challenged the legitimacy of Obama, with his promotion of the bullshit "birtherism" conspiracy theory that Obama had forged his birth certificate.

    It is incorrect and dangerous to say that both Republicans and Democrats are not respecting election outcomes and undermining our democracy. Other than our newly elected president, it is only the small radical fringe groups on the left and right that are doing this.
    You are aware, of course, the whole Obama/birth certificate/legitimacy issue was started by Mrs. Clinton when she was running against Mr. Obama in 2008?

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honky Tonk View Post
    You are aware, of course, the whole Obama/birth certificate/legitimacy issue was started by Mrs. Clinton when she was running against Mr. Obama in 2008?
    The "Jeffy did it first" defense of Family Circus fame masterfully played yet again. dang...

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit View Post
    The "Jeffy did it first" defense of Family Circus fame masterfully played yet again. dang...
    A quick search of the "internet" will verify my post. Might I suggest trying "Google"?

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