The Macomb County Question

**dtowncitylover** · November-29-16, 10:57 AM

Just finished this piece from the Free Press about Macomb County.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...-zoo/93922816/

Macomb County, the home of the Frank Rizzos, Reagan Democrats, and endless miles of bland suburban sprawl and Catholic churches. I really don't have a good opinion on Macomb County and even before it failed the region by voting against the RTA, I hated going east of Dequindre for anything. I get my snobby Oakland County/pro-Detroit attitude doesn't help, but frankly I don't care. Wouldn't even care if the RTA left them out of the transit master plan. The rest of SE Michigan will make progress without them [[I really don't mean that)...

I feel like the residents of Macomb County were those former east side Detroit residents [[and their descendants who were taught to hate Detroit) who felt "pushed out" by the influx of African Americans and therefore have this aversion to do anything with Detroit. [[As opposed those who moved to Oakland County because they were wealthy and wanted lakefront property and rolling hills).

If anyone is one Facebook and follows the Humans of New York page, the photographer and creator of the page is in Macomb County telling their stories. Most are non-political but the ones that are are pretty telling [[and disgusting) of who makes up Macomb County.

Oh Macomb County...

**Danny** · November-29-16, 11:15 AM

It's not just racist attitude that folks in Macomb County voted against the Regional Transit Authority. It's the areas in Macomb County cities [[ex-urbs) loaded with suburban sprawl far as 26 Mile Rd. that don't want to pay $100.00 dollars a year on their property their taxes from their $200K homes.

There are no SMART buses that goes further into Macomb TWP, Washigton TWP, Romeo, Armada and areas up to 36 Mile Rd. That would question lost of Macomb County residents, "Why do I have to pay $100.00 year where there is no public transit buses going in my area."

The RTA folks really screwed up the tax levies. Folks in most areas are not going to hand out tons of tax monies just to get a few buses into their town. Just lower the tax levy to $25.00 a year to an home. The RTA would have to ask Donald Trump for more federal dollars to new buses and to expand bus services. So back to drawing board with the RTA and back to same old reduced bus routes.

As for racial overtones coming from Macomb County folks. Yes black folks are moving to your area thanks to jobs better housing and School of choices. City of Warren, Eastpointe, St. Clair Shores have a heavy influx of black residents since the early 2000s. Is this why most Macomb County resident voted no the RTA? There's got be another reason rather than looking at black folks coming from Detroit or just being too greedy for your own good.

**Bobl** · November-29-16, 01:35 PM

Yes, many residents or their relatives left as people who did not look like them moved in and out of fear of crime. As it turned out, crime did increase, which led to a tidal wave of those who could hastily retreating. At first, most who left could find or keep jobs that kept them in the middle class, with little education. The erosion of these jobs and middle class opportunities created fear and resentment. The paranoia is palpable in Macomb County more than many other areas. Many here are unsophisticated, have no passports, and have not seen how the world is changing. Right now, they just wish to keep their heads above water, pay the mortgage, and keep the lights on. The goal is to keep what they have while abandoning others. "I got mine [[barely) screw everyone else". I knew and predicted here that RTA would go down in flames. Instead of voting for regional progress they voted for Trump. It won't be long before these folks discover that their hero is laughing at them while removing any safety net and diminishing their Medicare and Social Security benefits.

**swingline** · November-29-16, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bobl

Yes, many residents or their relatives left as people who did not look like them moved in and out of fear of crime. As it turned out, crime did increase, which led to a tidal wave of those who could hastily retreating. At first, most who left could find or keep jobs that kept them in the middle class, with little education. The erosion of these jobs and middle class opportunities created fear and resentment. The paranoia is palpable in Macomb County more than many other areas. Many here are unsophisticated, have no passports, and have not seen how the world is changing. Right now, they just wish to keep their heads above water, pay the mortgage, and keep the lights on. The goal is to keep what they have while abandoning others. "I got mine [[barely) screw everyone else". I knew and predicted here that RTA would go down in flames. Instead of voting for regional progress they voted for Trump. It won't be long before these folks discover that their hero is laughing at them while removing any safety net and diminishing their Medicare and Social Security benefits.

Spot on.

The Free Press article was hard to digest with all of the near sighted provincialism being expressed by the Macomb County residents. Yes, the RTA was responsible for the grossly incompetent advocacy campaign for the millage that failed to adequately inform those folks about the benefits of transit even for those who wouldn't use it. Nonetheless, the article exposed the astoundingly selfish hypocrisy of people who claim to support regionalism because they voted for the zoo or the DIA because they use those amenities [[what about taxpayers who don't patronize those institutions?) but a no vote for the RTA is really ok or prudent because they "won't get anything out of it."

**dtowncitylover** · November-29-16, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by swingline

Nonetheless, the article exposed the astoundingly selfish hypocrisy of people who claim to support regionalism because they voted for the zoo or the DIA because they use those amenities [[what about taxpayers who don't patronize those institutions?) but a no vote for the RTA is really ok or prudent because they "won't get anything out of it."

Which is hilarious because transit benefits the local economy hundreds of times better than a zoo or art museum.

**scooter** · November-29-16, 03:26 PM

Maybe if the RTA offered to put some sort of transit from Lakeside Mall or Parkridge Creek to Romeo or Armada it would of passed, many people up here donot have cars and need to get around. the SMART 510 only goes to Lakeside or 23 mile same as 560, offer us more for the money. I voted yes for it, but that was a losing cause,

**casscorridor** · November-29-16, 04:31 PM

I don't feel optimistic for Detroit. Economics, culture and climate aren't on its side. Yeah, there are some things going for it. But I doubt the Detroit 20 years from now will be that much different from today.

**Ray1936** · November-29-16, 07:27 PM

I always felt the tri-county area to be Wayne, Oakland, and Essex.

**313WX** · November-29-16, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

I don't feel optimistic for Detroit. Economics, culture and climate aren't on its side. Yeah, there are some things going for it. But I doubt the Detroit 20 years from now will be that much different from today.

I agree.

At this point, all it will take is another auto industry downturn to kill the little progress that has been made.

**Hypestyles** · November-30-16, 07:13 AM

More incentive for me to leave the region as soon as I am able.

Still no buses on Hall Road.. Oh well....

**GMan** · November-30-16, 08:42 AM

With all the sentiments expressed about Macomb County here, maybe we can get D.T. to negotiate a trade, Macomb County for Windsor.

**1953** · November-30-16, 11:51 AM

I grew up in Macomb County and recently moved back [[for logistical purposes). This article from the Freep captures the local mood most excellently.

One area of discussion that I think it misses, though, is the land use perspective. Macomb County is a county of cul-de-sac subdivisions. Its hard to make the case that transit will serve just about anybody north of ten or twelve mile, which makes this an awful hard sell in a county that goes up to 38 mile road.

I voted for the millage, but talking to my neighbors, I heard lots of concern about the cost of the system and the fact that it is all about buses, which many doubt will solve the region's transit woes. Had this been a proposal with more train transit, I think they might have felt different about it. Growing up in Macomb County, the only people who walk anywhere or take buses are people who's car broke down and people perceived as poor black folks from Detroit [[and Mt. Clemens).

1953

**belleislerunner** · November-30-16, 11:52 AM

This thread attempts to make Macomb County sound like it belong in Kentucky or Tennessee.

If you google Michigan counties by per capita income - you would see Macomb County has a median household income of $54,000. The United States has a median household income of $52,000. Thus - it approximates what is the true middle class for all Americans.

It has rich areas [[e.g. Washington Twp), poor areas [[New Haven), and everything in between from country living [[Armada) to lakeshore living [[Harrison Township) to inner suburbs [[Fraser) to suburban life [[Macomb/Lakeside/Sterling Heights).

So therefore the issues it votes on/decides/values tend to be in line with what most "middle class" Americans share and that's why it's so fascinating at a national level - you have all of America represented in one county.

Macomb County.

**Jason** · November-30-16, 02:50 PM

Macomb County isn't even regional/civic minded when it comes to its own county. How many people do you think are close to or below the threshold of transit dependence in Macomb County vs Oakland or Washtenaw?

They're not "fiscally conservative". A fiscal conservative would know that the additional transit service would generate more money in the economy then it would spend through taxes, and would be in favor for it.

And if they were fiscally conservative they would realize that the longterm value of their homes depends on the region stabilizing and people currently in poverty escaping it. Right now, the moment a neighborhood is built in Macomb County, it is at it's highest peak, and from then on it's downhill.

You could say that they're ignorant rather than anti-regional, but they have just as much access to information as anywhere else. The ignorance is willful and cultural.

And I do agree that they did a bad job of campaigning for it. I didn't see very much but what I did see was just pushing the social justice angle. Yeah, people might like that granny can take the bus to church but I think people would react more strongly to slashing unemployment, boosting GDP, improving efficiency/value of the existing systems, and protecting property values.

**jt1** · November-30-16, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by belleislerunner

This thread attempts to make Macomb County sound like it belong in Kentucky or Tennessee.

If you google Michigan counties by per capita income - you would see Macomb County has a median household income of $54,000. The United States has a median household income of $52,000. Thus - it approximates what is the true middle class for all Americans.

It has rich areas [[e.g. Washington Twp), poor areas [[New Haven), and everything in between from country living [[Armada) to lakeshore living [[Harrison Township) to inner suburbs [[Fraser) to suburban life [[Macomb/Lakeside/Sterling Heights).

So therefore the issues it votes on/decides/values tend to be in line with what most "middle class" Americans share and that's why it's so fascinating at a national level - you have all of America represented in one county.

Macomb County.

No, not really. Most counties have various levels of income. Macomb has zero urban/city life and the majority of the population is concentrated in either older subs or McMansion subs. There is no way you can argue that Macomb County represents all of America with a straight face.

**Bong-Man** · November-30-16, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bobl

Yes, many residents or their relatives left as people who did not look like them moved in and out of fear of crime. As it turned out, crime did increase, which led to a tidal wave of those who could hastily retreating. At first, most who left could find or keep jobs that kept them in the middle class, with little education. The erosion of these jobs and middle class opportunities created fear and resentment. The paranoia is palpable in Macomb County more than many other areas. Many here are unsophisticated, have no passports, and have not seen how the world is changing. Right now, they just wish to keep their heads above water, pay the mortgage, and keep the lights on. The goal is to keep what they have while abandoning others. "I got mine [[barely) screw everyone else". I knew and predicted here that RTA would go down in flames. Instead of voting for regional progress they voted for Trump. It won't be long before these folks discover that their hero is laughing at them while removing any safety net and diminishing their Medicare and Social Security benefits.

Beautifully said. I moved from Warren to Harrison Twp. and figured I might have left some of this attitude behind. I was greeted by neighbors that told me to be prepared, because the blacks were planning on attacking us by canoe from Mt. Clemens via the Clinton River. I'm not joking ! They voted for 'change' because they honestly think a politician is going to make their lives better, instead of formulating any plan to grab the reins themselves. Just came back from an extended trip thru Oregon and Washington. I have plans.

**Atticus** · November-30-16, 06:22 PM

The pro-transit people need to realize that the RTA millage provided no direct transportation benefit to the majority of Macomb County residents. The vast majority live in their subdivisions, and are happy to live the subdivision lifestyle where they drive everywhere. That is their life as they see it, and they were being asked to pay a tax for a BRT line that most county residents would rarely if ever use.

You have to realize most people aren't transit economic development scholars, and they don't understand the indirect economic benefits that transit provides to the region as a whole. In fact, I would wager that many to most of the people in Macomb who did vote in favor, did so because they "feel bad for the poor people who have to take transit", and not because they understand the economic benefits transit creates.

**GMan** · December-01-16, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Atticus

The pro-transit people need to realize that the RTA millage provided no direct transportation benefit to the majority of Macomb County residents. The vast majority live in their subdivisions, and are happy to live the subdivision lifestyle where they drive everywhere. That is their life as they see it, and they were being asked to pay a tax for a BRT line that most county residents would rarely if ever use.

You have to realize most people aren't transit economic development scholars, and they don't understand the indirect economic benefits that transit provides to the region as a whole. In fact, I would wager that many to most of the people in Macomb who did vote in favor, did so because they "feel bad for the poor people who have to take transit", and not because they understand the economic benefits transit creates.

The tangibles if not seen or felt will not sway the people to contribute.

**dtowncitylover** · December-01-16, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Atticus

The pro-transit people need to realize that the RTA millage provided no direct transportation benefit to the majority of Macomb County residents. The vast majority live in their subdivisions, and are happy to live the subdivision lifestyle where they drive everywhere. That is their life as they see it, and they were being asked to pay a tax for a BRT line that most county residents would rarely if ever use.

You have to realize most people aren't transit economic development scholars, and they don't understand the indirect economic benefits that transit provides to the region as a whole. In fact, I would wager that many to most of the people in Macomb who did vote in favor, did so because they "feel bad for the poor people who have to take transit", and not because they understand the economic benefits transit creates.

Then I would guess most Macomb County people either can't read a map or didn't know about it and automatically assumed it wasn't for them. I'm not sure what "direct benefit" is? There were improved lines, Van Dyke, 15 Mile, 12 Mile, and the Dequindre bus route going into Rochester, and new lines on Canal, Hall Rd, and the Macomb Airport Line, as well as the Gratiot BRT line which would have had park and ride features at some stops. All this on top of existing SMART service. Unless these people wanted bus lines through their subdivisions, I'm not sure how more direct you can get.

And Gman, tangibles would have been nice if funding was secured. Now that Macomb failed us, the only tangible is RefleX which is only a 3 year pilot program. You can't build a world class transit system and then ask for money. SMART and DDOT are still competitors which means little federal dollars, had RTA passed they would've been under one umbrella.

**GMan** · December-01-16, 08:57 AM

"And Gman, tangibles would have been nice if funding was secured. Now that Macomb >failed us, the only tangible is RefleX which is only a 3 year pilot program. You can't >build a world class transit system and then ask for money. SMART and DDOT are still>competitors which means little federal dollars, had RTA passed they would've been under one umbrella."

If you build it they will come. That is a tangible? I've got some magic beans to sell if your interested. Point being, if your asking someone to kick in their dollars, you better show them a product. As for Smart and DDOT, they can be merged on paper and operating budgets combined with overlap eliminated. Problem is, who gets to be the boss and control the dollars?

**dtowncitylover** · December-01-16, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by GMan

"And Gman, tangibles would have been nice if funding was secured. Now that Macomb >failed us, the only tangible is RefleX which is only a 3 year pilot program. You can't >build a world class transit system and then ask for money. SMART and DDOT are still>competitors which means little federal dollars, had RTA passed they would've been under one umbrella."

If you build it they will come. That is a tangible? I've got some magic beans to sell if your interested. Point being, if your asking someone to kick in their dollars, you better show them a product. As for Smart and DDOT, they can be merged on paper and operating budgets combined with overlap eliminated. Problem is, who gets to be the boss and control the dollars?

Uh yes, transit personifies, so to speak, the phrase "if you build it they will come". That's literally how it works. The product was the master plan, better transit and more connectivity. I'm not sure how SMART and DDOT are supposed to improve themselves now, though DDOT is getting better, when nothing has changed really. The "merger" of SMART and DDOT was going to be the RTA.

And if people in Washington Township or Leonard didn't want the RTA, what makes you think they want to support DDOT? At least with the RTA, 85% of their money would stay in county.

**GMan** · December-01-16, 09:42 AM

dtowncitylover;517260]Uh yes, transit personifies, so to speak, the phrase "if you build it they will come". That's literally how it works. The product was the master plan, better transit and more connectivity. I'm not sure how SMART and DDOT are supposed to improve themselves now, though DDOT is getting better, when nothing has changed really. The "merger" of SMART and DDOT was going to be the RTA.

But where they would build it wont be where the money is being asked to come from.
It was pointed out that the home sprawl in that area wasn't conducive to mass transit, but hey we will take your money.

And if people in Washington Township or Leonard didn't want the RTA, what makes you think they want to support DDOT? At least with the RTA, 85% of their money would stay in county. Are the people in Washington or Leonard Twp. supporting smart now? I understand that some communities provide dial a ride to seniors or other people with mobility needs. Mass transit and a giant plan isn't a solution for that. I think most people are just sick of giant bureaucracies that eat up funding when a simple local solution does the trick.

**dtowncitylover** · December-01-16, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by GMan

dtowncitylover;517260]Uh yes, transit personifies, so to speak, the phrase "if you build it they will come". That's literally how it works. The product was the master plan, better transit and more connectivity. I'm not sure how SMART and DDOT are supposed to improve themselves now, though DDOT is getting better, when nothing has changed really. The "merger" of SMART and DDOT was going to be the RTA.

But where they would build it wont be where the money is being asked to come from.
It was pointed out that the home sprawl in that area wasn't conducive to mass transit, but hey we will take your money.

And if people in Washington Township or Leonard didn't want the RTA, what makes you think they want to support DDOT? At least with the RTA, 85% of their money would stay in county. Are the people in Washington or Leonard Twp. supporting smart now? I understand that some communities provide dial a ride to seniors or other people with mobility needs. Mass transit and a giant plan isn't a solution for that. I think most people are just sick of giant bureaucracies that eat up funding when a simple local solution does the trick.

Because transit benefits the WHOLE region. Which is what the Yes campaign failed to articulate. Washington does because Macomb in a full opt in county, Leonard does not because it's opt out. This mentality is the reason why Metro Detroit is not growing as a region. Your taxes aren't going to help poor black people get to work, our taxes are [[rather, were) going to help build a transit system to grow the local economy and become more attractive to visitors, [[potential) residents, and businesses. That's what the Yes campaign failed to say.

Dial a ride is nice for the disabled and seniors, but it doesn't help grow the economy more than those individual needs. We need a large ambitious plan if we want to join 21st century metropolises.

And as I said before, sprawl isn't conducive for transit but sorry SEMCOG, MDOT, and our local leaders brainwashed us into thinking this was the future and that's sustainable. It's not. You can't live in the exurbs and demand city amenities ASAP. But yes, if you want this region to be successful we all have to pay for it.

Also, I don't agree with the property taxes, I would much prefer a sales tax. However local sales taxes aren't allowed in Michigan and to change it would be a miracle considering our GOP legislature.

**GMan** · December-01-16, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Because transit benefits the WHOLE region. Which is what the Yes campaign failed to articulate. Washington does because Macomb in a full opt in county, Leonard does not because it's opt out. This mentality is the reason why Metro Detroit is not growing as a region. Your taxes aren't going to help poor black people get to work, our taxes are [[rather, were) going to help build a transit system to grow the local economy and become more attractive to visitors, [[potential) residents, and businesses. That's what the Yes campaign failed to say.

Dial a ride is nice for the disabled and seniors, but it doesn't help grow the economy more than those individual needs. We need a large ambitious plan if we want to join 21st century metropolises.

And as I said before, sprawl isn't conducive for transit but sorry SEMCOG, MDOT, and our local leaders brainwashed us into thinking this was the future and that's sustainable. It's not. You can't live in the exurbs and demand city amenities ASAP. But yes, if you want this region to be successful we all have to pay for it.
D
Also, I don't agree with the property taxes, I would much prefer a sales tax. However local sales taxes aren't allowed in Michigan and to change it would be a miracle considering our GOP legislature.

Dtownlover I believe transit does benefit a region, but you have to want to be part of that region. Do people in Wash Twp. want to have RBT to Detroit? What percentage of people commute to downtown. I remember the initial ridership levels for the Ann Arbor N/S connector came in below desired levels. The call was "build it and they will come!" Funny thing is how the initial start up costs kept going up and up. Now the private company that wanted to start the service with limited capabilities got shoved aside for the bigger picture. "Federal Dollars!" But to get federal dollars you just need this, that and the next thing, all in place before startup. Guess what....ten years later, A.A. doesn't have a n/s connector train. Now US 23 is getting a flex lane. The planners should have let the private service attempt to test the business plan before the "tangibles" were sold to the communities and the Transit Authority penned and ready to collect taxes.
Start Small and build!

**dtowncitylover** · December-01-16, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by GMan

Dtownlover I believe transit does benefit a region, but you have to want to be part of that region. Do people in Wash Twp. want to have RBT to Detroit? What percentage of people commute to downtown. I remember the initial ridership levels for the Ann Arbor N/S connector came in below desired levels. The call was "build it and they will come!" Funny thing is how the initial start up costs kept going up and up. Now the private company that wanted to start the service with limited capabilities got shoved aside for the bigger picture. "Federal Dollars!" But to get federal dollars you just need this, that and the next thing, all in place before startup. Guess what....ten years later, A.A. doesn't have a n/s connector train. Now US 23 is getting a flex lane. The planners should have let the private service attempt to test the business plan before the "tangibles" were sold to the communities and the Transit Authority penned and ready to collect taxes.
Start Small and build!

WALLY failed because it seemed like no one truly cared about the project. Yes there was some talk about it, a page on SEMCOG's website, but for the most part there was no traction probably because there was no true funding source. I've never heard of a private service being talked about in the WALLY plan. And if it's anything like pre-Amtrak trains, it's going to end up be public anyways.

The RTA is completely different because there was to be a funding source, there was a master plan, and the RTA itself was the authority, and all we had to was approve it. WALLY had no funding source, it hasn't been planned very well, and AATA wanted Livingston County to join in creating WALLY but they said no.

And you're right, you do want to be part of a region. So let the RTA scrap all Macomb County routes and move on without them.