Secretary of Education nominee Betsy DeVos and Detroit's schools

[renf]

The morning newspaper has a thoughtful essay about the role that Ms. DeVos may have played in the now troubled schools of Detroit. I hope that her confirmation hearings provide a forum for an intelligent discussion of how to reform public education.

Am I correct in thinking that he spouse was the head of Amway when they settled for $150 million in a suit in which the plaintiffs charged that Amway was running a pyramid scheme? I assume that Betsy DeVos was not involved so it may be inappropriate to mention this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/op...f=opinion&_r=0

[Johnny5]

I believe Dick Devos had retired by the time that suit was settled, but he was CEO of Amway in the 90's and early 2000's [[Or Alticor, Quixtar, Etc Whatever they were calling it then). The Devos family has done some great things for West Michigan, but IMO prostitution is a more respectable business than the way they made their fortune [[[[Sc)Amway).

[EastsideAl]

She's also the brother of former big-time CIA mercenary [[and now offering mercenary services around the world) Erik Prince, of Blackwater [[in)fame:
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/24/...investigation/

[bust]

Yes, Dick DeVos had retired at the time of the settlement, but the fraud happened under his watch.

Because I assume she was not involved, it's also probably inappropriate to mention her brother, Erik Prince, founded Blackwater and is under investigation for money laundering, ties to Chinese intel, and brokering mercenary services.

Erik Prince in the Hot Seat
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/24/...investigation/

Or maybe it is appropriate to mention she has some people of very questionable character in her immediate family.

One thing for sure, it most certainly is appropriate to mention Betsy DeVos is the architect of a misguided plan to implement charters as the solution for Detroit's failing schools. In addition to the article you already shared, here are some others:

Betsy DeVos, Trump’s Education Pick, Has Steered Money From Public Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/op...x-schools.html

Detroit's Educational Catastrophe
http://www.theatlantic.com/education...crisis/482010/

The Risk with Betsy DeVos
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/24/op...tsy-devos.html

A Sea of Charter Schools in Detroit Leaves Students Adrift
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/us...r-schools.html

Since her plan was implemented Detroit's public schools have gotten worse. According to test scores, they are the worst in the nation by far. And according to articles above, students in Detroit's charters are not testing any better than students in its public schools.

Is that what we want?

[Bobl]

It may not be what we want, but it is no surprise that a person born with a golden spoon who wishes to dismantle public schools was named.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

It may not be what we want, but it is no surprise that a person born with a golden spoon who wishes to dismantle public schools was named.

Dismantling public schools as well as privatizing and sending tax dollars to religious institutions will be the agenda.

[Bobl]

Dismantling public schools as well as privatizing and sending tax dollars to religious institutions will be the agenda.

Yes, and it will be fun to sit back and watch when some high profile Islamic groups sign up for the cash cow, complements of President Trump.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Yes, Dick DeVos had retired at the time of the settlement, but the fraud happened under his watch.

Because I assume she was not involved, it's also probably inappropriate to mention her brother, Erik Prince, founded Blackwater and is under investigation for money laundering, ties to Chinese intel, and brokering mercenary services.

Erik Prince in the Hot Seat
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/24/...investigation/

Or maybe it is appropriate to mention she has some people of very questionable character in her immediate family.

One thing for sure, it most certainly is appropriate to mention Betsy DeVos is the architect of a misguided plan to implement charters as the solution for Detroit's failing schools. In addition to the article you already shared, here are some others:

Betsy DeVos, Trump’s Education Pick, Has Steered Money From Public Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/op...x-schools.html

Detroit's Educational Catastrophe
http://www.theatlantic.com/education...crisis/482010/

The Risk with Betsy DeVos
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/24/op...tsy-devos.html

A Sea of Charter Schools in Detroit Leaves Students Adrift
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/us...r-schools.html

Since her plan was implemented Detroit's public schools have gotten worse. According to test scores, they are the worst in the nation by far. And according to articles above, students in Detroit's charters are not testing any better than students in its public schools.

Is that what we want?

Why not? Some of Trump's current picks for jobs in his administration, Bannon and Sessions are sketchy, just as he is. So, they fit the narrative.

[EastsideAl]

Dismantling public schools as well as privatizing and sending tax dollars to religious institutions will be the agenda.

It's no secret that her "privatizing" agenda, like that of the rest of the political/religious establishment in western Michigan, is in service of extracting taxpayer funding for Christian institutions and schools. What they really want is to make an end run around the 1st Amendment. Any potential improvement to the education of "urban" children would merely be a side effect of their main aim.

[GMan]

Defining the role of the government to assure access to education to everyone should not exclude the possibility of tax credits to families that send their children to private schools, even if the school is religious.
The goal should not be 100% public run education nor should the public schools all be privatized.

[Wesley Mouch]

It's no secret that her "privatizing" agenda, like that of the rest of the political/religious establishment in western Michigan, is in service of extracting taxpayer funding for Christian institutions and schools. What they really want is to make an end run around the 1st Amendment. Any potential improvement to the education of "urban" children would merely be a side effect of their main aim.

You really think that Ms. DeVos doesn't care about education, simply because he ideas don't line up with yours?

I don't know if Charters and public funding of religious schools are the solution, but I know that the monopolistic public education and monopolistic union-industrial complex isn't the answer.

Even if she has a 'privatizing' agenda, so what? Why not give it a try. There's an argument that in aggregate, charters do no better than public education -- but that also suggests that they do no worse.

[EastsideAl]

You really think that Ms. DeVos doesn't care about education, simply because he ideas don't line up with yours?

I don't know if Charters and public funding of religious schools are the solution, but I know that the monopolistic public education and monopolistic union-industrial complex isn't the answer.

Even if she has a 'privatizing' agenda, so what? Why not give it a try. There's an argument that in aggregate, charters do no better than public education -- but that also suggests that they do no worse.

I don't think she gives a damn about educating urban children, particularly the darker-hued ones. Her whole educational career has been in service of extracting public money to fund parochial religious institutions. Especially the type of protestant 'Chrisitian academies' [[in her case, particularly for little white Calvinist children) that have long been used as a dodge around integrated public schools. And in seeking ways around that pesky First Amendment to do it.

[ABetterDetroit]

You really think that Ms. DeVos doesn't care about education, simply because he ideas don't line up with yours?

I don't know if Charters and public funding of religious schools are the solution, but I know that the monopolistic public education and monopolistic union-industrial complex isn't the answer.

Even if she has a 'privatizing' agenda, so what? Why not give it a try. There's an argument that in aggregate, charters do no better than public education -- but that also suggests that they do no worse.

Uhh... with all due respect Sir we have, right here in Michigan with lots of DeVos leadership all the way back to the first Engler administration. The fact is it was and is a failure. The majority of charter schools suck just as bad as most of the public schools.

I guess your happy that a additional 1 Billion dollars had to be infused from the state into the 1 school district that has had the most charters over many years than any other in the state in a matter of months. But hey, it makes great political rhetoric and someone profits immensely off of the tax payers dime so to hell with the actual education quality. There are some big piles of money to made down there in DC, makes Michigan look like small potatoes.

[GMan]

Charter schools is not the automatic answer. What is wrong with allowing vouchers to be used by families to select school of choice and the letting the schools with failing curriculum and enrollments close? The governments role is to support education opportunities for all people, not dictate the vehicle of that education.

[Wesley Mouch]

Uhh... with all due respect Sir we have, right here in Michigan with lots of DeVos leadership all the way back to the first Engler administration. The fact is it was and is a failure. The majority of charter schools suck just as bad as most of the public schools.

Even if the majority of charters 'suck', that some don't is reason enough to keep experimenting.

Am I wrong that Charter attendance is voluntary? So I can't quite figure ou why so many people decide to vote with their feet, if they 'suck' so badly.

It still seems like a win for students to have options. I have not been persuaded as to how shutting down choice helps students.
[/quote]

I guess your happy that a additional 1 Billion dollars had to be infused from the state into the 1 school district that has had the most charters over many years than any other in the state in a matter of months. But hey, it makes great political rhetoric and someone profits immensely off of the tax payers dime so to hell with the actual education quality. There are some big piles of money to made down there in DC, makes Michigan look like small potatoes.

Are you suggesting that the 1B dollars were infused because of DeVos/Engler leadership? I don't get it. I feel your anger, but not your logic.

[Towne Cluber]

I don't think she gives a damn about educating urban children, particularly the darker-hued ones. Her whole educational career has been in service of extracting public money to fund parochial religious institutions. Especially the type of protestant 'Chrisitian academies' [[in her case, particularly for little white Calvinist children) that have long been used as a dodge around integrated public schools. And in seeking ways around that pesky First Amendment to do it.

In that case, you might be quite surprised to learn of the private feelings of a prominent Detroiter [["darker-hued" as you said) that is quite involved in educating urban children...

Here's a hint: "I've got mine" and "If they don't like it they can move out of the city/state"...

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't think she gives a damn about educating urban children, particularly the darker-hued ones. Her whole educational career has been in service of extracting public money to fund parochial religious institutions. Especially the type of protestant 'Chrisitian academies' [[in her case, particularly for little white Calvinist children) that have long been used as a dodge around integrated public schools. And in seeking ways around that pesky First Amendment to do it.

If they don't agree with you, call them racists.

If there's a single reason Trump won, its that thinking. For years, the black community wanted respect. Why wouldn't the white community want respect too? Instead they get attacks on their motives.

[ABetterDetroit]

If they don't agree with you, call them racists.

If there's a single reason Trump won, its that thinking. For years, the black community wanted respect. Why wouldn't the white community want respect too? Instead they get attacks on their motives.

Mouch, You have demonstrated your complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

Every single thing in EastsideAl's post is factually spot on correct. He has forgotten more about DPS and Mrs. DeVos than you ever knew, obviously. You don't have a clue.

Your racist attack can be debunked right here on page 35. DPS is 97.82% minorities

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...6_204440_7.pdf

If you're a man, you owe him an apology.

[K-slice]

DeVos means money will be diverted away from teachers, supplies and students, and given to corporate executives and shareholders. Period.

[Wesley Mouch]

Mouch, You have demonstrated your complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

Every single thing in EastsideAl's post is factually spot on correct. He has forgotten more about DPS and Mrs. DeVos than you ever knew, obviously. You don't have a clue.

Your racist attack can be debunked right here on page 35. DPS is 97.82% minorities

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...6_204440_7.pdf

If you're a man, you owe him an apology.

I trust that Mr. Better's knowledge of DPS might show that it isn't a perfect organization. We should continuously try new ideas, charters, vouchers, etc. Who cares -- so long as it helps the kids.

Mr. Better -- I'm not sure how I might have offended Mr. Al. Let me know. If I've offended, I would be pleased to apologize. As to racism... I was accusing others of making accusations of racism. I was not calling anyone a racist. I think racism is an over-used accusation -- that's being applied to anyone who doesn't think a certain way. I share concerns about racism in society -- but believe that the wild accusations being made today harm everyone involved.

[ABetterDetroit]

Even if the majority of charters 'suck', that some don't is reason enough to keep experimenting.

Am I wrong that Charter attendance is voluntary? So I can't quite figure ou why so many people decide to vote with their feet, if they 'suck' so badly.

It still seems like a win for students to have options. I have not been persuaded as to how shutting down choice helps students.

Are you suggesting that the 1B dollars were infused because of DeVos/Engler leadership? I don't get it. I feel your anger, but not your logic.

Lets get this straight.

You think its logical to "keep experimenting" with educating children.

You want to keep doing it after years of failure and deny when it started during the first Engler Administration because they don't want to admit that the results should be analyzed and might hinder keeping the "experiment" going.

Next up, you want to deny the heavy involvement of DeVos and Engler in your "experiment" of failure because it might stick to your republicans.

Lets just have a come to Jesus moment here Mouch for those of us that have been here for years and have read your posts. You relentlessly pump republican ideology, constantly drilling their talking points at us on this board.

Last and most important to the issue that started this particular disagreement, when another poster pointed out that Mrs. Devos had an extremely heavy hand in your "experiment" in Detroit over the last two decades and it is obvious by his post that he is fully aware of her background and where she comes from and that her "experimenting" has occurred in a district that is 98% children of color he has, in my opinion, a damn good reason to point out that fact.

You can not change the evidence of failure of charter schools in Detroit. They have been there a long time. They are terrible. The state of primary and secondary education in the city is awful, charter and public. Your "experiment" is costing the Michigan tax payer a fortune. Follow the money, it is going straight to the DeVos lobbyist. Now take your republican hat off and think like an independent and ask, why? Its not rocket science, the people that pocket our money by the 100s of millions are paying them to push the same crap you constantly dribble on this issue.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...hold/77155074/

[Jimaz]

Google Wesley Mouch.

He is not the moderate he pretends to be. He chose that name for a reason.

[EastsideAl]

If they don't agree with you, call them racists.

If there's a single reason Trump won, its that thinking. For years, the black community wanted respect. Why wouldn't the white community want respect too? Instead they get attacks on their motives.

I'm not offended [[in case you were worried), But you did allude to my favorite bizarro trope of the Tumpists: we were so hurt at being called racist that we decided to vote for one [[and whatever he does, it's all your fault calling us that).

[erikd]

You really think that Ms. DeVos doesn't care about education, simply because he ideas don't line up with yours?

I don't know if Charters and public funding of religious schools are the solution, but I know that the monopolistic public education and monopolistic union-industrial complex isn't the answer.

Even if she has a 'privatizing' agenda, so what? Why not give it a try. There's an argument that in aggregate, charters do no better than public education -- but that also suggests that they do no worse.

We HAVE given the privatization/charter school agenda a try, and it hasn't worked. Just to be clear, I am not opposed to privatization or charter schools, and I had hopes that the charter school experiment would yield improved outcomes, but they just haven't.

Instead of continuing to expand this failed experiment, it would be better for us to look at the schools that have found ways to create academic improvements under similar circumstances, and then try to replicate their successes. There are examples of public and private schools overcoming these challenges in America and abroad, so we should be looking at these successful examples to figure out what they did to overcome the odds, and then utilize those strategies.

The most effective strategies for turning around substandard schools may involve more privatization or less privatization, but we should be striving for the best outcomes, and not blindly supporting a dogmatic approach.

[Honky Tonk]

We HAVE given the privatization/charter school agenda a try, and it hasn't worked. Just to be clear, I am not opposed to privatization or charter schools, and I had hopes that the charter school experiment would yield improved outcomes, but they just haven't.

Instead of continuing to expand this failed experiment, it would be better for us to look at the schools that have found ways to create academic improvements under similar circumstances, and then try to replicate their successes. There are examples of public and private schools overcoming these challenges in America and abroad, so we should be looking at these successful examples to figure out what they did to overcome the odds, and then utilize those strategies.

The most effective strategies for turning around substandard schools may involve more privatization or less privatization, but we should be striving for the best outcomes, and not blindly supporting a dogmatic approach.

Exactly, +5...