How Pro Sports Saved A City's Downtown

[emu steve]

EDIT: I would like to insert "helped" in front of the word, saved...

There has been many discussions of how sports stadia and arenas have been good for an area or simply some big building sitting out there when events are not being held.

Everyone likes to pick their own 'case studies.'

However, when discussing it as it pertains to Detroit, Detroit, itself, is a great shining case study of how sports facilities has played a major role in a downtown area.

Here is what I have come up with:

I was thinking of 'economic development' over the decades:

1). The Fox,

2). Comerica Park, home of the Tigers,

3). Ford Field, home, again, of the DETROIT Lions,

4). Super Bowl,

5). Dan Gilbert goes big in Detroit,

6). LCA, home of the Red Wings,

7). LCA, home, again, of the DETROIT Pistons

8). District Detroit, home of our four pro teams and maybe soccer, too.

I see a common thread in these seven or eight, namely, the economic development effects of pro sports in Detroit.

But, maybe more significantly, is the sequential nature of them and how the they all build on each other. Other than the Fox, all have/are happening within the last 20 years.

Without the Fox, the Ilitches would not have been in Detroit. Without Comerica Park, there wouldn't be a Ford Field [[I read that there was joint planning that Ford Field was dependent on Comerica).

And folks seem to forget, and deny [[as the case may be), that Ford Field brought Detroit a Super Bowl. The city was stimulated and prepared and revitalized by it. Was the Super Bowl preparation the beginning of the downtown revival?

A few years later, a man named Dan came to town...

The salient question here is would Dan have come to town if the Super Bowl had not energized the downtown area????

Will Detroit become the model for sports facilities and development? [[there have been stories that Redskins want to move back to D.C. to the area where RFK stadium sits and want to build a huge development. The owner of the Capitals and Wizards suggested they might want to move there as well in the future. D.C. would have the Redskins, Capitals and Wizards together on one site and the Nationals and D.C. United [soccer team] on another.) That would revitalize several major neighborhoods: "near South East [[and the desolate part of South West" [[Nationals/D.C. United) and Capitol Hill extended.

[dtowncitylover]

LOLZ I'm gonna wait for Bham to take this over...

However, I will start by saying that I think it's silly to think that one sports game could have a positive lasting effect on a city. Cities host the Super Bowl, show themselves off, people go home, everyone forgets who won within six months. Detroit was such a Potemkin village during the Super Bowl that anything "positive" was a facade. The loss of the Madison-Lenox was due to the Illitches and failing the city of Detroit to actually grow a pair and stop them and do nothing to them after. Then we rounded up homeless people and sheltered them for a day to make sure it looks like we had no problem.

I would say a Super Bowl now in Detroit would actually have a more positive impact on the city than it could 10 years ago now [[wow 10 years ago already?!). With the streetcar coming, and more shopping and food choices, it would really be a boon for downtown, midtown, and the New Center.

I'm of the mindset that stadiums and sports teams in one central location aren't necessarily bad for an urban city, however it's easy to go wrong with planning them. I'm looking forward to the LCA's plaza. The ACC in Toronto has Bremner Blvd that turns into a plaza during games and it's really neat.

[401don]

Downtown Detroit basically continued to be devoid of any activity until Peter Karmonos moved Compuware downtown and then Dan Gilbert later began his exploits. Compuware and CMart Park contributed far more than the stadia to revitalizing downtown.

[MSUguy]

Was the Super Bowl preparation the beginning of the downtown revival?

No. That award goes to the relocation of Compuware and the construction of Campus Martius. The addition of thousands of new workers and the creation of one of the best public spaces in the country is what truly energized downtown. It brought constant life and activity to an area that had none. Did the stadiums bring money downtown? Sure. But that no way compares to the value of an active street life. Walk down Brush St. on a non game day vs Campus Martius any day of the week and tell me which one is more valuable.

I would argue that's why LCA will so be beneficial, because its mixed use nature will do exactly what Comerica and Ford Field don't and that is bring constant street life. That is the most valuable aspect of LCA, the sports part is worthless if all you have another non gameday deadzone.

[emu steve]

I agree with the points about Compuware and Campus Martius. A lot of development isn't smart, but Peter K. was brilliant in his design of CompuWare building. I agree it is hard to understate the importance of it and Campus Martius.

I also agree that LCA's design is beautiful because it was designed to be part of a growing 'downtown' development, i.e., it builds an area where people can live, work and play.

There will be offices [[presumably) for both Wings and Pistons, maybe a medical office building, hotel, residences, business school, etc. etc.

This is the kind of development one would like to see if the city is going to get maximal value from a sports facility.

As we have discussed elsewhere we'll know if District Detroit 'hits a home run' if the Americana Hotel becomes a hotel or maybe even condo along with development along Temple from Woodward to West of the Masonic. Anything that adds a hundred, two hundred, etc. more housing units to those promised associated with the LCA [[e.g., lofts, Eddystone, and those out front by Comerica).

BTW, I was downtown Tuesday afternoon and wanted to see if I could get into the Pistons' press conference. I assume only invited guests [[insert 'Uncle Mike' joke here) and media were allowed. I was to be at the CMU/EMU FB game that evening and didn't have a ton of time to spend parking and trying to get into Cass Tech.

[Scottathew]

The downtown revival happened because JOBS moved down here. This is having a trickle-down\tickle-out effect.

[emu steve]

BTW, IF I could modify a thread title, I WOULD add: "HELPED" [[save).

NO one believes that any specific buildings, businesses, transportation modes, etc. 'saves' a downtown, they are all pieces of the puzzle or the whole.

The new 'buzz' word is 'organic' which I take to mean that something happens and other things then start to happen and then other things happen and in an ad hoc fashion unplanned or TBD things happen.

This is certainly true with District Detroit while much has been planned and is ongoing, but a lot of the future development is TBD: lot of development will be where [[TBD), when [[TBD), by whom [[TBD), etc.

[dtowncitylover]

This is certainly true with District Detroit while much has been planned and is ongoing, but a lot of the future development is TBD: lot of development will be where [[TBD), when [[TBD), by whom [[TBD), etc.

HA! Jane Jacobs is rolling in her grave after you wrote that. District Detroit is not organic, it is a 100% planned community. With [stupid] names for the neighborhoods like a subdivision in the suburbs and they came pre-designed with what their aesthetic and environment will be like. No neighborhoods simply chooses How long did Plum St last? Chinatown 2? Whom is clearly Dan Gilbert and the Illitches, et al. '

District Detroit, as a totality, is an affront to all urban development. It's putting the cart before the horse, the book title before the pages.

[emu steve]

HA! Jane Jacobs is rolling in her grave after you wrote that. District Detroit is not organic, it is a 100% planned community. With [stupid] names for the neighborhoods like a subdivision in the suburbs and they came pre-designed with what their aesthetic and environment will be like. No neighborhoods simply chooses How long did Plum St last? Chinatown 2? Whom is clearly Dan Gilbert and the Illitches, et al. '

District Detroit, as a totality, is an affront to all urban development. It's putting the cart before the horse, the book title before the pages.

idk - I don't know, but no one has told us what will happen esp. west of Cass.

Are there definite plans for those two blocks adjacent to Cass [[now used for parking)? The Americana? The Alhambra?

How about all of the other properties bought by the Ilitches [[or owned by others) west of Cass?

How can we say the area is planned when the Ilitches own some, but NOT most of the property west of Cass?

As far as west of the Fox. IDK. I think God only knows and he's not sending prophets to give us a heads up.

West of the Fox won't happen until a lot of other things happen in downtown.

[southen]

West of the Fox won't happen until a lot of other things happen in downtown.

So same as the last 30 years? Got it.

[dtowncitylover]

idk - I don't know, but no one has told us what will happen esp. west of Cass.

Are there definite plans for those two blocks adjacent to Cass [[now used for parking)? The Americana? The Alhambra?

How about all of the other properties bought by the Ilitches [[or owned by others) west of Cass?

How can we say the area is planned when the Ilitches own some, but NOT most of the property west of Cass?

As far as west of the Fox. IDK. I think God only knows and he's not sending prophets to give us a heads up.

West of the Fox won't happen until a lot of other things happen in downtown.

http://www.districtdetroit.com/

Here is the website, now look. Their plans for west of the Fox are those shitty neighborhoods some guy dreamt up in a creative meeting. Instead of "planning" neighborhoods [[because there's actual ways to plan neighborhoods), perhaps they need to build based on demand. Then a neighborhood will arise.

Those neighborhood descriptions have got to be the most pretentious and fake pieces [[of shit) ever written.

I'm all for developing the dead zone behind the Fox and north on Cass, but it cannot be done in such a corporate forced way.

[emu steve]

http://www.districtdetroit.com/

Here is the website, now look. Their plans for west of the Fox are those shitty neighborhoods some guy dreamt up in a creative meeting. Instead of "planning" neighborhoods [[because there's actual ways to plan neighborhoods), perhaps they need to build based on demand. Then a neighborhood will arise.

Those neighborhood descriptions have got to be the most pretentious and fake pieces [[of shit) ever written.

I'm all for developing the dead zone behind the Fox and north on Cass, but it cannot be done in such a corporate forced way.

I think you and I are together on this.

I prefer to use "TBD" instead of having some PR folks put in something which may or may not be built and if built may or may not look like what is portrayed.

Will there be offices for the Pistons in District Detroit? IDK.

Will there be a practice facility for the Pistons in District Detroit? IDK.

Will there be a medical facility for the Wings, Pistons, etc. in District Detroit? IDK.

Will there be a soccer stadium in District Detroit? IDK.

Will there be 50 - 100 town homes, near Grand River, in District Detroit? IDK.

[renf]

Are there any rigorous and reliable counts of the number of jobs located in downtown Detroit? The Census Bureau offers one estimate a year for total jobs in Detroit. It is
not easy to count the location of every job. I assume that employment in downtown
Detroit has grown since GM moved into the Ren Center but I would like to see some
official data.

[1953]

I have worked downtown for most of the past fifteen years.

My observations are that:

1. Comerica Park and Ford Field are total dead zones unless there is an event.

2. Peter Karmanos had a significant catalyzing effect when he brought Compuware downtown and put it alongside a newly renovated Campus Martius.

3. The Lofts at Merchants Row didn't make much life happen, sadly.

4. Dan Gilbert has single handedly moved downtown ahead by decades through his acquisition, renovation, and leasing of 80+ downtown buildings.

5. The "District Detroit" is one more area of dead space that is unlikely to add life to the area, except on game day.

1953

[dtowncitylover]

3. The Lofts at Merchants Row didn't make much life happen, sadly.

And that's only because a central city with pedestrian traffic and vitality needs alot more than, what?, 100 residencies? If that...it needs tens of thousands of residents both living and working there who walk, bike, or take transit on their way to places. The Lofts restored beautiful buildings, but the hundreds of people that live there aren't going to make Woodward Fifth Avenue.

[emu steve]

I have worked downtown for most of the past fifteen years.

My observations are that:

1. Comerica Park and Ford Field are total dead zones unless there is an event.

2. Peter Karmanos had a significant catalyzing effect when he brought Compuware downtown and put it alongside a newly renovated Campus Martius.

3. The Lofts at Merchants Row didn't make much life happen, sadly.

4. Dan Gilbert has single handedly moved downtown ahead by decades through his acquisition, renovation, and leasing of 80+ downtown buildings.

5. The "District Detroit" is one more area of dead space that is unlikely to add life to the area, except on game day.

1953

I hear you and agree with you on the points I'm most familiar, i.e., #1, 2, and 4.

Times I have been in Detroit and near Comerica, Ford Field, etc. when an event wasn't going on, was, indeed, DEAD.

This is precisely the reason that new thinking on sports facilities that they have to be integrated into something more than simply themselves.

As far as #5, the idea is to add maybe 150 - 175 'game days' composed of say 100 Red Wing or Pistons games plus another 50, 75 or whatever of other events. BTW, it does appear that most of these events will be at night. Who ever heard of a Thursday afternoon hockey game...

What I think we'll see is an UPTICK in activity because of the new residences, and assorted other factors we've discussed, e.g., office, hotel, school of business, etc.

The idea we've been discussing is if the Ilitches are successful in hundreds of housing units at the Eddystone, lofts, residences by Comerica, spin off development such as [[maybe) the Americana, etc. And of course, Brush Park development will help being nearby.

That should produce the activity level of a new 'neighborhood.'

[bust]

The legacy of the Super Bowl? How about all the historic buildings that were demolished in its name.

For starters:

The Donovan Building -- Detroit's own Motown HQ.
The Sanders Factory
The Statler Hotel
The Madison-Lenox
The William Apartments
The Art School of the Society of Arts and Crafts
The Lancaster and Waumbek Apartments [[listed on the National Register of Historic Places)

But we gained an overpriced bridge on I-94 in Taylor. And parking lots. Lots of parking lots.

As many have already mentioned, we also gained enormous dead zones surrounding infrequently used stadia, far too close to downtown. Floods of overwhelming traffic when they're in use. And many more parking lots.

Jane Jacobs said, “Detroit is largely composed, today, of seemingly endless square miles of low-density failure.”

That was 1961. It's gotten much worse since then.

Meanwhile, plenty of research proves public money is wasted on sports arenas. Take your pick:

Sports Stadiums Do Not Generate Significant Local Economic Growth, Stanford Expert Says
http://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/...s-noll-073015/

Are Pro Sports Teams Economic Winners for Cities?
https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/...winners-cities

Publicly Financed Sports Stadiums Are A Game That Taxpayers Lose
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreyd.../#588001616183

Sports, Jobs, & Taxes: Are New Stadiums Worth the Cost?
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/s...orth-the-cost/

Pro Sports Stadiums Don't Bolster Local Economies, Scholars Say
https://news.illinois.edu/blog/view/6367/207443

End the N.F.L. Tax Breaks
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...nfl-tax-breaks

Use of Taxpayer Money for Pro-Sports Arenas Draws Fresh Scrutiny
http://www.wsj.com/articles/use-of-t...iny-1425856677

etc...

Should we heed the well-researched evidence, or should we trust what the wealthy beneficiaries of public money and their enablers have to say?

[Ray1936]

Comment a tad off-topic, but not too much.

My adopted home for the last 32 years of Las Vegas will have an NHL team starting next year. The arena was built by 100% private funds. [[Yeah, I'll be there with my Red Wings shirt when the Vegas Golden Knights play the Wings). However, all the talk about the Oakland Raiders moving to Las Vegas [[which has a much better than 50-50 chance of happening) will see Clark County, NV, making a major contribution to the building of an NFL stadium by increasing the Hotel Room Tax considerably. So if you vacation a few days in LV, you'll be helping to build the ball park.

It's my view that if the owners want a venue for their sports teams, they should build their own play pens. I object strongly to the increase of any taxes to build stadii [[Is that the correct plural? I flunked Latin at Mackenzie.)

[emu steve]

My comment to Bust:

All those academic studies are [[snooze).

Ask mayor Duggan if he thinks those studies are applicable to Detroit.

I heard him speak at the press conference last week.

Think he feels are "N/A" to Detroit.

[southen]

Yeah, a Mayor wouldn't benefit at all from flashy stadiums and arenas and projects that look great but provide little to the city at large. "I brought the Pistons back!" Sounds great but does little to help people outside of the immediate area.

[detroitbob]

[QUOTE=emu steve;517063]idk - I don't know, but no one has told us what will happen esp. west of Cass.

west of Cass and the west side of Grand River will happen sooner that later.

[SammyS]

In 20 years, the things we attribute to Detroits comeback probably haven't even occurred yet.

[Atticus]

The one aspect about Stadiums that doesn't get included in the studies [[and this aspect may be unique to Detroit), is that the stadiums themselves help positively advertise the good changes in the Downtown area.

What I mean by that is Detroit still has a pretty bad reputation both locally and nationally, fair or not. To buck that trend, both positive things need to happen, and outsiders need to see said positive things. This is where stadiums come in.

For all the good Dan Gilbert and others have done downtown, the vast majority of it would go much more unnoticed if there were no downtown stadiums. People who otherwise would never come downtown go to a Tigers or Lions game, and they see all the positive changes occurring. This helps change opinions, and over time helps reduce or eliminate the bad reputation.

If your city doesn't have a bad reputation, than maybe this "advertising" is a non-factor. But for Detroit, it is critical. And the sooner the bad reputation can be bucked, the easier it will be to attract even more people, jobs, and developments to the city and state, which in turn benefits everyone.

And that is the part that gets overlooked in these studies.

[erikd]

The one aspect about Stadiums that doesn't get included in the studies [[and this aspect may be unique to Detroit), is that the stadiums themselves help positively advertise the good changes in the Downtown area.

What I mean by that is Detroit still has a pretty bad reputation both locally and nationally, fair or not. To buck that trend, both positive things need to happen, and outsiders need to see said positive things. This is where stadiums come in.

For all the good Dan Gilbert and others have done downtown, the vast majority of it would go much more unnoticed if there were no downtown stadiums. People who otherwise would never come downtown go to a Tigers or Lions game, and they see all the positive changes occurring. This helps change opinions, and over time helps reduce or eliminate the bad reputation.

If your city doesn't have a bad reputation, than maybe this "advertising" is a non-factor. But for Detroit, it is critical. And the sooner the bad reputation can be bucked, the easier it will be to attract even more people, jobs, and developments to the city and state, which in turn benefits everyone.

And that is the part that gets overlooked in these studies.

This is an interesting take on the debate...

As numerous economic studies have shown, the positive effects of new stadium construction simply don't generate much in the way of new economic activity, spin-off development, job creation, etc. - especially when the cost of the public tax contribution is factored in.

Having said that, it is valid to ask if the new stadium construction in Detroit had an intangible benefit by creating a "buzz" and sparking interest that may not have been there without it.

It would be interesting to hear what Pete Karmanos or Dan Gilbert have to say about this...

Was the new dual stadium construction a factor in the decision to move Compuware downtown? Did Pete Karmanos see the sports investment as a sign that downtown was a good place to invest, or was it a non-factor in his decision?

[emu steve]

This is an interesting take on the debate...

As numerous economic studies have shown, the positive effects of new stadium construction simply don't generate much in the way of new economic activity, spin-off development, job creation, etc. - especially when the cost of the public tax contribution is factored in.

Having said that, it is valid to ask if the new stadium construction in Detroit had an intangible benefit by creating a "buzz" and sparking interest that may not have been there without it.

It would be interesting to hear what Pete Karmanos or Dan Gilbert have to say about this...

Was the new dual stadium construction a factor in the decision to move Compuware downtown? Did Pete Karmanos see the sports investment as a sign that downtown was a good place to invest, or was it a non-factor in his decision?

Good discussion and questions.

To compare Detroit to D.C. [[for example) is ludicrous. D.C. has been on a big upswing for some years. Detroit was severely hurting for decades and needed a 'lifeline.'

I've long maintained on this forum that if downtown continued to decline there would be no Detroit to speak of.

D.C. wanted but didn't need Nationals Park to thrive [[it was a want but not an absolute need). Detroit needs EVERY new building, renovation, every new employer, new sports, entertainment, cultural venue, park, etc. it can get.

And I agree with the poster I'm quoting that Detroit has literally created a buzz which seems to defy reality [[ask Trump about Detroit). I do remember when the Morning Joe team came to Wayne State and one would have thought they were in the middle of NYC the way they talked about the 'new Detroit.'

Quite frankly, most of the buzz was created downtown and Midtown. MSNBC didn't send their morning aces to Detroit to see that the lights were back on in the neighborhoods or if potholes had been patched.