Expansion of the People Mover?

[Newdetroit]

I was just wondering what people think about the possibility of expanding the people mover. How would you propose to make it more effective and expansive?

Would you recommend a double line? Also would you recommend that it went eastward down Jefferson only or also westward down Michigan avenue [[or Grand River) as they might put an Ann Arbor-Dearborn-Detroit rail line? Or one that circles Grand Avenue. Or do you think it would not be beneficial?

[mtburb]

Here's an excellent tool that lets you plot your own People Mover extensions.
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?21827-Brand-New-Subway-build-your-own-subway-system-in-Detroit-[[and-other-cities-too)

Speaking of which I've created and seen plenty of fantasy Detroit subway systems posted on the internet for many years.

[ndavies]

The peoplemover will never be expanded. Bombardeir no longer makes the small people mover trains used in Detroit. The people mover uses proprietary Bombardier technolgy. There is a very high cost to retool to make new ones. It`s much cheaper to use more standardized equipment, like the m1 line uses. It is also very expensive to do the elevated track. How are you going to pay for it? Voters weren`t willing to pay for the RTA that would have leveraged fed money for these types of projects.

[K-slice]

The DPM is all it ever will be; a circulator for downtown businesses, residents, and tourists. I had hoped that if the RTA millage passed we would see the streetcar expanded down Michigan and Jefferson to Grand Boulevard but it looks like that wont be happening any time soon.

[Jason]

I'm not sure if we would actually need new trains. My understanding is that they already have extra trains and capacity for even more in the maintenance facility. But you're right that in the serious longterm future it needs to be addressed. The station platforms and I think some of the curves are too short for the new train lengths.


Despite the negative reputation people movers have in Detroit, there have been a lot of really big systems built around the world in the last 20 years. Here are a few of them:

Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, is spending $5,900,000,000 for 25 miles, 22 stations, and 47 trains. $236 million per mile.

Yongin [[outside of Seoul), South Korea, spent $889,000,000 for 11.5 miles, 15 stations, and 11 trains. $77 million per mile.

Vancouver spent $1,200,000,000 for 12.6 miles, 11 stations, and some number of new trains. $95 million per mile.

Taipei spent $2,000,000,000 for 9.2 miles, and 12 stations. $130 million per mile.

Yongin's Everline line is super squiggly and travels through a mountainous area. Riyadh's orange line is underground through part of the route. Vancouver's Millennium line is also squiggly and mountainous and involved some tunneling. Taipei's Neihu line contains an underground section and river crossings and is also mountainous. Unfortunately none of the other cities' routes are directly comparable to Detroit's.

Detroit is very flat, and the routes are mostly straight, so I imagine for most of the routes you'd be able to use standard straight level prefab elevated guideway sections with straight rails, which would dramatically reduce costs. We also already have the maintenance/operations center, and depending on how many trains the new line would need we might already have enough of those too. Compared to these systems could Detroit do it at $50-75 million per mile?


Jefferson to Indian Village would connect over 30,000 residents to downtown [[midtown/New Center has about 10,000 for comparison) directly to downtown and would put new development on steroids. There are a lot of river amenities, and schools as well, and I think people mover would be more attractive to families than buses. I also think this route would benefit a lot of "normal" Detroiters as well as new/downtown residents.


It would be about 3 miles and might cost $150-225 million.

Today daily ridership is only 6,700 a day. How much would that be boosted by a Jefferson extension and the QLine [[expecting 5,000-8,000, how many would transfer downtown, 1,000?)? If you forced the Larned and Jefferson buses to transfer onto the new line you could get another 4,000, the passengers would probably get to their destinations faster and it would save the buses money. How many extra passengers would there be from the improved service quality and connectivity?

In 2015 the people mover got $1.4 million in fares. If you increased the fare to an even $1, and doubled to tripled the riders, it would get $3.7-5.5 million in fares. They got about $0.3 million in ad money which would also increase with higher ridership. If the people mover made $4 million extra a year in total, and the city didn't reduce its current subsidy, over 30 years that would cover at least half of the costs. Could a TIF like the arena's be used to cover the rest, since property values would rise so much?


These aren't real numbers but they're close enough to show that if there was the will, the city could substantially improve the people mover without having to spend very much more money [[relatively) than it already is, and without relying on regional or federal cooperation.

But the politics of it make it nearly impossible.

[masterblaster]

I'm not sure if we would actually need new trains. My understanding is that they already have extra trains and capacity for even more in the maintenance facility. But you're right that in the serious longterm future it needs to be addressed. The station platforms and I think some of the curves are too short for the new train lengths.

Back 10-12 years ago, a gentlemen named Marsden Burger, who was the manager of the People Mover when it first opened in 1987, mounted a campaign to build a two-way extension that would serve the Woodward corridor up to Henry Ford Hospital. He claimed that no new train cars would be needed, nor any new maintenance facilities. A half-finished website was created, which included among other things, a map of new extension and the following assertion:

"This expanded system would be able to effectively function with the present fleet of vehicles, existing staff levels, and current maintenance and operational control facility, while serving the entire Woodward corridor. The present fleet, which generally runs at less than 5% of capacity, can see a ten fold increase in ridership without the need for more vehicles. When that need arises, we still have the capacity within the existing maintenance facility for a 100% increase in our fleet size."

http://drcurryassociates.net/DetroitPeopleMover2.html

He claimed the 3 mile, two-way extension would cost $150-200 million - but that was 10 years ago. This extension would have been much better than the QLine - the QLine is going to get caught in car traffic, and be subject to traffic lights. The QLine cost $137 million.

[casscorridor]

Back 10-12 years ago, a gentlemen named Marsden Burger, who was the manager of the People Mover when it first opened in 1987, mounted a campaign to build a two-way extension that would serve the Woodward corridor up to Henry Ford Hospital. He claimed that no new train cars would be needed, nor any new maintenance facilities. A half-finished website was created, which included among other things, a map of new extension and the following assertion:

"This expanded system would be able to effectively function with the present fleet of vehicles, existing staff levels, and current maintenance and operational control facility, while serving the entire Woodward corridor. The present fleet, which generally runs at less than 5% of capacity, can see a ten fold increase in ridership without the need for more vehicles. When that need arises, we still have the capacity within the existing maintenance facility for a 100% increase in our fleet size."

http://drcurryassociates.net/DetroitPeopleMover2.html

He claimed the 3 mile, two-way extension would cost $150-200 million - but that was 10 years ago. This extension would have been much better than the QLine - the QLine is going to get caught in car traffic, and be subject to traffic lights. The QLine cost $137 million.

I still think it would have been much better to build a People Mover extension up to New Center than the streetcar, the frequency of trains and speed is much better. I imagine the route would be slightly different if proposed today, than 10 years ago. However, with the streetcar built, I can't imagine this ever happening. It would be redundant unless serving a different area, such as East or Southwest. It seems like a streetcar expansion is more likely though.

[Enduro]

I still think it would have been much better to build a People Mover extension up to New Center than the streetcar, the frequency of trains and speed is much better. I imagine the route would be slightly different if proposed today, than 10 years ago. However, with the streetcar built, I can't imagine this ever happening. It would be redundant unless serving a different area, such as East or Southwest. It seems like a streetcar expansion is more likely though.

I feel that way too until I remember that the People Mover is a one way ticket so you'd have to complete the loop unless they had some cars switch tracks...

[night-timer]

Up to New Center [[past the new Red Wings arena and the DIA/WSU) would be nice, but it will get handled by the new tram system on Woodward.

Jefferson is kinda covered because the DPM goes past the Ren Cen on Jefferson. How much further up Jefferson do you need or want to go - the turn-off to Belle Isle?

Up Michigan Avenue would be handy if Tiger Stadium was still there. Not so sure if there's a real demand for a People Mover on that stretch of road now. Maybe Matty Maroun can finance and re-route it to go past his MCS site all the way to Canada, LOL.

Beyond that I don't really see the DPM getting expanded anywhere beyond where it currently is in Detroit's most central and built-up areas.

[Newdetroit]

If it went down Jefferson, it could stop at 1)GM HQ, 2)St. Aubin, 3) McDougall, 4)E.Grand Blvd/Belle Isle Bridge, 5)Van Dyke, 6)Marina Dr, 7)St. Clair, 8)St. Jean, 9)Dickerson, and then 10)Alter. I think that this would spur development along the riverfront.

In the alternative, 1)GM HQ, 2) St. Aubin, 3)McDougall, 4) E. Grand Blvd, and then around Belle Isle. I think that tourists might opt to take it to go to Belle Isle to visit some of the attractions there making Belle Isle more of destination.

If there is ever to be an Ann Arbor-Detroit rail line [[commuter), I would love to see a monorail connecting the terminals to the line going up Merriman.

[Jason]

Back 10-12 years ago, a gentlemen named Marsden Burger, who was the manager of the People Mover when it first opened in 1987, mounted a campaign to build a two-way extension that would serve the Woodward corridor up to Henry Ford Hospital.

http://drcurryassociates.net/DetroitPeopleMover2.html

The Marsden Burger map is interesting because it shows how far Detroit has come. At the time midtown was just a collection of isolated destinations so the path just connects the dots, while today there's the expectation that all of midtown is worth providing service to and has a lot of potential so there's no question that the path would go straight down Woodward.

I feel that way too until I remember that the People Mover is a one way ticket so you'd have to complete the loop unless they had some cars switch tracks...

I think the trains are reversible. So either the new line would terminate at one of the stations on the loop, and then go backwards in the other direction, meaning passengers would have to get off and make a transfer to get onto the loop. Or the train would go through the loop and would be marked in such a way that downtown passengers don't accidentally get on a train that leaves downtown.

Jefferson is kinda covered because the DPM goes past the Ren Cen on Jefferson. How much further up Jefferson do you need or want to go - the turn-off to Belle Isle?

I don't think Jefferson is really covered at all. On Jefferson from downtown to Indian Village there's about 30,000 residents, twice as much as downtown/New Center. It would make sense to connect the greater downtown's biggest residential area with its biggest jobs areas.

Whether you're expanding the People Mover or the Q-Line, you can't connect as much stuff with as short of a line as you can with Jefferson.

I agree that the other routes wouldn't make much sense unless you had the money to do a 10 or 20 mile route.

[EastsideAl]

Given the technological limitations and the costs of building new elevated line, I think that People Mover expansion is a complete non-starter now. However, if the M-1/Q-line is successful, and population and commerce continues to expand in the central city, I can see a number of streetcar extensions as being potentially viable, and not too difficult to build. Down Jefferson to Belle Isle or Indian Village, out Michigan to Corktown or even further down Vernor towards Mexicantown. And especially up Gratiot and into the Eastern Market.

Of course, with the defeat of the RTA millage, this would require more private funding like the building of M-1. And maybe another whack at the RTA, with a better campaign this time.