A comparative analysis of US Health Care

[ccbatson]

Free market capitalism is Karma in reality as opposed to a mystical type of Karma.

[mjs]

Since when did I say any of this crap?

I'm all for exercise, I don't eat fast food or soda, NEVER. I practice what I preach. But the corporatists who control farming and McDonalds, etc, would be so hurt by all this, I'm sure the Rethuglicans would say "hands off my Big Mac!" in response to any concerted effort to put fast food out of business.

Your premise, and attack on my position is false, and basically what I expected from those who live in an either/or, black/white state of existence.

Don't put words in my mouth, or a Big Mac, for that matter.

Do you understand what reading between the lines means? I can't quote what's between the lines. You are Mr Democrats can never do anything wrong and its Democrats that are writing the health care bills that are following what every poll says. Do you believe America should have universal health care? Overwhelming Yes. Would you be willing to pay more in taxes for universal health care? Strong No. Would you support a soda tax? Hell No. Is it Ok to tax those making over $250,000 more to fund universal health care? Sure, why not.

Americans do have an entitlement attitude on a great many things and health is one of them. We believe we are entitled to the longest life span for the lowest amount despite ignoring every single thing health experts tell us. If you want to compare life expectancy from one group to another, you have to normalize the data. Compare the life expectancy of 1000 non-smoking Europeans that follow USRDA guidlines, drink 8 glassses of water a day, exercise three times a week, and sleep eight hours a day to 1000 Americans that do the same. People keep comparing a 22 BMI group to a 35 BMI group and saying see, the evil rich are cheating the blameless poor. Its an unfair comparison. The 35 BMI group will always die sooner and cost more doing it. Its not a greed thing; its just how life works.

And for the hundredth frickin time, taxing the people using the benefit is not the same as making it illegal. Adding a soda tax or fast food tax to support a small portion of universal health care will not make soda or fast food illegal. It just means that the person that goes to fast food places fifteen times a week will have contributed more to their triple bypass surgery than the guy that runs past those places seven times a week.

[Lorax]

Do you understand what reading between the lines means? I can't quote what's between the lines. You are Mr Democrats can never do anything wrong and its Democrats that are writing the health care bills that are following what every poll says. Do you believe America should have universal health care? Overwhelming Yes. Would you be willing to pay more in taxes for universal health care? Strong No. Would you support a soda tax? Hell No. Is it Ok to tax those making over $250,000 more to fund universal health care? Sure, why not.

Americans do have an entitlement attitude on a great many things and health is one of them. We believe we are entitled to the longest life span for the lowest amount despite ignoring every single thing health experts tell us. If you want to compare life expectancy from one group to another, you have to normalize the data. Compare the life expectancy of 1000 non-smoking Europeans that follow USRDA guidlines, drink 8 glassses of water a day, exercise three times a week, and sleep eight hours a day to 1000 Americans that do the same. People keep comparing a 22 BMI group to a 35 BMI group and saying see, the evil rich are cheating the blameless poor. Its an unfair comparison. The 35 BMI group will always die sooner and cost more doing it. Its not a greed thing; its just how life works.

And for the hundredth frickin time, taxing the people using the benefit is not the same as making it illegal. Adding a soda tax or fast food tax to support a small portion of universal health care will not make soda or fast food illegal. It just means that the person that goes to fast food places fifteen times a week will have contributed more to their triple bypass surgery than the guy that runs past those places seven times a week.

I really don't know where you're coming from. I don't disagree that people should be able to eat dog shit if that's what they want to eat. However, in the case of fast food, the wealthy corporations choose to offer shit to eat, since it's cheaper to produce shit, and they can maximize profits in doing so.

When you are living in a big city such as Detroit, and your restarurant options are limited, and that includes grocery stores, then you will eat what is most easily found around you. The schools offer high-calorie menus, mac and cheese, vending machines, etc, indoctrinating kids at an early age to eat what tastes good, not what is good.

If we tax soda, candy, fast food, great- I have no problem with it. We tax liquor and cigarettes, and many states charge tax on regular groceries, some don't. Progressive taxation works when a great deal of funding needs to be raised quickly. I don't disagree, and quit trying to "read between the lines" as you put it, since you are more interested in conspiracy theories than the path to a solution.

Your mention of normalizing data to compare statistics between people of different nations is so worn out as a methodology it's laughable.

On it's face alone, people who walk more, drink red wine from a young age, eat foods not raised by corporate farmers with hormones and pumped full of shit, and stay away from fast food will live longer. No mystery here. The benefits of the high-calorie French diet are legendary, but works hand in hand with their lifestyle, and the fact that they weren't indoctrinated at a young age to like Big Macs.

Our beef is not allowed in Japan or Europe due to the posions and dyes we pump into it, and the low quality grains we use to feed the beef cattle. Now foods are being zapped with radiation to kill e-coli. We keep making mistakes to keep the spots and insects off grocery store food, and end up killing ourselves in the process.

Why do American parents give in to their kids by "making it easier on themselves" and dropping by McDonalds for a happy meal? My younger brother has raised his three kids on McDonald's and they are disinterested as young adults in anything but high calorie, high fat meals. It's another example of corporations too big, with too much influence over how our society functions, and has had lasting implications on the health of our nation.

There is no difference in the wealth and influence of giant corporations like Walmart and McDonald's than there is in a government. Perhaps America's, and American governments biggest failure in the modern age.

[mjs]

I think we agree on more than you realize and can agree that certain cause and effect relationships become cyclical. We both want to break a poor diet/poor health choices cycle and you think it can be done by pressuring the corporations. I don't believe its even possible because a corporation is a thing. Trying to get a corporation to change its behavior is like trying to change the behavior of water. An area is full of the products that sell. Shutdown every McDonald's, Burger King, and Taco Bell in Detroit and Detroiter's will just eat different high sodium high fat food. If Detroit's eating habits were like France's, Detroit would have the food choices of France.

If Americans continue to live unhealthy, Americans will continue to have high health care costs and shorter lives. Universal coverage, government options, taxes on the rich, marching on Washington, nothing is going to change this. Rising health care costs that are already high is simply proof of a fact we agree on, not proof that we need to petition corporations that sell the food people want or sell the health coverage people want. I just find it laughable that people think government involvement in health care is critical when they don't care enough about their own health to park at the end of the Walmart parking lot when they go to get their Funyons and Mountain Dew. People want to spend their nights eating chips and watching TV, fine. Just don't tell me I'm not paying for enough of the doctor's bill when they have to go in for surgery. A heavy guy with triple bypass surgery eats Big Macs because its what he chose, not because McDonald's ran a commercial. Actions that produce immediate short term benefits has its long term consequences and Americans need to come to grips to that whether its their health, the size of their home, or how they spend their money.

[Gistok]

Should everyone have "the best" cars, houses, yachts, food, clothes, etc....just because it is "unfair" that successful productive individuals have earned more for their tremendous efforts?

That is the most fucked up health care reasoning I have ever heard on this forum... CC no wonder any credibility you have ever had on this forum in medical affairs has long ago been negated by your flippant "Marie Antoinette" attitude about the destitude in America. Let them eat cake indeed....

[Lorax]

I think we agree on more than you realize and can agree that certain cause and effect relationships become cyclical. We both want to break a poor diet/poor health choices cycle and you think it can be done by pressuring the corporations. I don't believe its even possible because a corporation is a thing. Trying to get a corporation to change its behavior is like trying to change the behavior of water. An area is full of the products that sell. Shutdown every McDonald's, Burger King, and Taco Bell in Detroit and Detroiter's will just eat different high sodium high fat food. If Detroit's eating habits were like France's, Detroit would have the food choices of France.

If Americans continue to live unhealthy, Americans will continue to have high health care costs and shorter lives. Universal coverage, government options, taxes on the rich, marching on Washington, nothing is going to change this. Rising health care costs that are already high is simply proof of a fact we agree on, not proof that we need to petition corporations that sell the food people want or sell the health coverage people want. I just find it laughable that people think government involvement in health care is critical when they don't care enough about their own health to park at the end of the Walmart parking lot when they go to get their Funyons and Mountain Dew. People want to spend their nights eating chips and watching TV, fine. Just don't tell me I'm not paying for enough of the doctor's bill when they have to go in for surgery. A heavy guy with triple bypass surgery eats Big Macs because its what he chose, not because McDonald's ran a commercial. Actions that produce immediate short term benefits has its long term consequences and Americans need to come to grips to that whether its their health, the size of their home, or how they spend their money.

I, too, think we have more agreement than disagreement.

I, however, think there is a responsibility of government to regulate corporations, as evidenced by the current economic collapse- but further to the point, when it comes to food and how it's produced and marketed is also a function of government in it's role as oversight against the cavalier nature of corporations toward their bottom lines.

Education is the key here, and breaking the cycle of indoctrination of our youth. If kids are raised on McDonald's then they are predisposed to liking what is unhealthy for them, pretty simple. Parents need to cook at home, and forgo eating at these establishments. Their menus will change quickly in response, as they have in recent years to offering more salads, etc.

Being that the rest of the industrialized world won't import our beef is a sure sign that we are losing this battle. We should be ashamed to accept the edict of our corporations that inferior food products are acceptable for us to eat, while they are disallowed by other nations- much as we have allowed corporations to sell our better resources to foreign nations, i.e. hardwood lumber, oil, copper, coal, steel, etc., while we are forced to accept the junk made in China which is loaded with toxins. Need I refer to the poisoned pet food, Chinese drywall, toothpaste, lead in toys, etc?

Republican leadership has allowed this deregulation which has led to our diminishing status as an industrial power, all in the name of expedient profit for private corporations. Bush even defunded the FDA and the EPA in order to break government oversight to the point that as Grover Norquist said: "....we'll make government small enough to drown it in the bathtub."

Do we really need any more evidence than this, that we are on the wrong road?

[jiminnm]

mjs, you are correct sir [[or madam). We are continually told that Americans' life span is shorter than other countries because they lack health insurance. Our lives are shorter because we eat crap and too much of it, and loll about in front the TV eating more. One just needs to look at growing obesity and diabetes rates to see the result.

We don't need more federalization of health care to fix that problem [[unless one thinks rationing is the answer). Certainly, nothing in HR 3200 will fix the problem. There is plenty of readily available information about how we eat and don't exercise that folks can get today, we simply just choose to ignore it.

[Lorax]

Is this some concerted, too little, too late half-measure by the Rethuglicans to divert attention away from the issue at hand?

Sounds like it to me.

Where was the outrage over weight and obesity during the Tush Administration?

Sorry, folks, the system is broken, private health insurance is a failure, except for the bank accounts of the CEO's, and a single payer, medicare for all system is a reasonable fix to our backward, prehistoric method of health delivery to the population.

Progressive European socialized health care shows us the way, yet again.

[ccbatson]

Broken private system? 85% approval and not going bankrupt as an industry sound like a failure to anyone else?

[ccbatson]

Oh...and guess what...if the customer is not satisfied [[15% of the time), they can fire the company, and/or exercise other options. As opposed to a single payer socialized system where the only option is to "take the pain pill" as Comrade Obama says.

[gibran]

We blame the poor for their diets and lack of healthy lifestyles...but where are there affordable grocery stores in the inner cities...where is there health clubs for people who work two jobs at minimal wages? Where is the preventive programs...? How about the groups to eliminate stress and teach anger management or other psychosocial groups...now when you address the conditions that cause disparity in health care...get back to me..oh that's right we don't need universal health care...funny how countries with homogeneous populations there is universal care..it is only in our country where we ration health care and preventive medicine from those who are suffering the most..and I am still waiting for the free markets to correct this..

[gibran]

I see many people lining up cc and firing their insurance companies...yeah right

[ccbatson]

You don't know of anyone who has changed insurance based on high cost premiums, or dissatisfaction? Must be Union drones not given a choice then.

[gibran]

Rationing is happening right now its called ...denial of claims, existing conditions and co-pays...those conditions cause people to make choices as if they are rationalizing their care..why are people afraid of government control of medicine when they are protecting our country, educating our children, sending our mail, controlling our social security etc...do you really trust your lives with a bean counter and a corporation beholding to their shareholders over a government that can be replaced at election time...when was the last time the common man or women was successful fighting their insurance company teams of lawyers? If they were at what cost?

The real irony here is that many of the so called "independents" who are against doing what is right for America would be the first to scream if they lost their nest eggs to pay a hospital bill..or maybe they would just go bankrupt...and then be victimized by a credit score...

I am still waiting to hear from the republicans and their health care alternatives...one that would cover all people in our country...one that would focus on health care disparity. However, the ball-less Democrats can't really shake their lobbyist either and I hope that the President slows down this train and declares a one year program to address a bipartisan bill ..but with no uncertain conditions that one will pass...after all "health care" is a moral issue and right now those who are screaming the loudest are obscuring the needs of our country for the protection of those who profit from the confusion....you can figure out who that is...

[ccbatson]

Sigh...denial of a claim does not stop someone from obtaining the service, therefore it is not rationing. If your homeowners policy does not agree to pay for a reshingle on an undamaged portion of roof under a valid claim [[but does pay for the damaged area), can you not opt to pay for the rest and get it done?

[gibran]

what world do you live in oh yes "ranidan land" where free market economies correct everything? Sigh, what a dissconnect with the suffering of so many while claiming that our current system is correcting itself by market forces...

Let,s see if this logic plays out....what is the cost of a roof for a person who makes a good faith monthly payment for their insurance? Maybe you can pay for a half of roof but how many can pay for even that ..and what about matching it correctly? Now what about a operation or LOS at hosptial...but tell me how a person on a fixed income is goiing to correct that...

It is like my insuance who has just painted only half the walls in my house because they were not connected ...now I am battling with the sewarts of free market to match my paint in the rooms they have just painted...also now I have to battle with them to try to also match our carpets...I don't know about you but somethings can't be just half fixed..especially in medicine...like rehabilitaion ...i haven't seen free market correction, just denying of services that used to be covered...Post Acute porgrams are vitrually gone[[why free market greed by private health care companies: Health South- New Medico) because of that great free market concepts in health care... Have you never experienced discharge by wallet...when the gold is gone so is the stay..or how about patients that are struggling to meet their goals then they suddenly recover and met their goals as soon as the LOS is close or the money runs out....how about paying for Cognitive therapy? Look I heard the Bean Counters say "those with the gold get the treatment those who don't get discharged...." I fought the law and the Market won..boy thats really moral in health care....how many of you all checked your policies lately when it regards rehab or other speciality services? [[rationing, maybe)..many haven't even thought of it until they need it...then you find out very quickly that your LOS of stay or vistis to SLP, PT or OT is very restricted...but let's let the free market correct it...how many people can fire their health insurance in the middleof treatment and pick another policy up?

[gibran]

A migrant farmer in the field picking your foods breaks his foot...but continues to work because lack of health care insurance...after about two weeks his brother begs a health care worker to help him...his foot was so swolen that he kept buyig larger shoe sizes to fit his foot into the shoe until he couldn't buy shoes that fit his feet... now after his foot was amputated he is going to need expensive treatment...enjoy your water melon...

How about the migrant farmer who super glued fake teeth into his mouth til he could get back to mexico to see a dentist...

yep they could just fire their health insurance companies...oh that is only if they had one.

[gibran]

by the way those union drones pay your bills with their taxes...and build your cars, can your foods and clean up your shit.

[barnesfoto]

The proposition that poor diet and unhealthy lifestyle is the main cause of the poor state of American life expectancy reminds me of the old story of the blind men and the elephant.

Of course, people who spend too much time on internet forums are prone to hyperfocusing on small facets of large problems, resulting in statements like " The elephant is a long, slender animal and has a mouth that opens wide, much like a snake!".

There is a growing movement, however to tax unhealthy food. The corporate food lobby, which has been so enabled by the years of deregulation that began with the Ray-Gun regime, can be counted on to fight such legislation. No doubt that they will hire some of the usual right-wing parrots to denounce it as "creeping socialism".


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,5244082.story

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/boos...ealthcare.html

[elganned]

Ccbatson's solution: Allow the rich to pay for their healthcare, and let the poor folks die 'cause they can't pay for it on their own.

Nice and neat.

[jiminnm]

elganned's solution: since the top 50% of income tax payers already pay 96% of income taxes paid, let them pay for health care for everyone.

[Lorax]

Jiminycricket's solution: provide false statistics to prove a worthless point.

The rich get tax breaks the rest of us don't. And the top 2% own 90% of the wealth in this country.

[elganned]

elganned's solution: since the top 50% of income tax payers already pay 96% of income taxes paid, let them pay for health care for everyone.

Close, but not quite.
Since the top 5% of the taxpayers account for 50% of the total income of the country, let them give up 1% more of their income so the bottom 95% don't have to die by the side of the road for lack of funds for a prescription of anti-biotic.

[gibran]

elgan. Great point... funny how the "I got mine crowd" can't connect the dots that health care is something that effects all of us-one way or another...we are all paying for it for all now indirectly...with the costs we are paying is now spread out for those with insurance for those without; especially when they show up at the ER or have waited to long to see a MD..why not flatten it out and have it for everyone ? But that would be the moral thing to do.

[Lorax]

Excellent points, all.

Here's a glaring example of the "I've got mine" crowd of sociopaths:

http://www.wvgazette.com/Opinion/Daw...r/200908140516