U-M Professor: War on Crime Fueled Detroit's Decline

[313WX]

Thoughts?

For the most part, academics attribute the city’s abandonment, poverty and decay to the disappearance of high-paying industrial jobs, white flight, discrimination in housing and employment, and government decisions that favored suburban development.
Thompson, though, argues that historians and others have missed an additional cause of Detroit’s unraveling: the rise since the mid-1960s of aggressive policing in black neighborhoods, along with laws that vastly increased prison sentences and the subsequent explosion of Michigan’s inmate population. That resulted in large numbers of people — mostly black males — yanked out of Detroit, orphaned children and collapsing neighborhoods..

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...line/92459474/

[GMan]

Thoughts?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...line/92459474/

For the most part, academics attribute the city’s abandonment, poverty and decay to the disappearance of high-paying industrial jobs, white flight, discrimination in housing and employment, and government decisions that favored suburban development.
Thompson, though, argues that historians and others have missed an additional cause of Detroit’s unraveling: the rise since the mid-1960s of aggressive policing in black neighborhoods, along with laws that vastly increased prison sentences and the subsequent explosion of Michigan’s inmate population. That resulted in large numbers of people — mostly black males — yanked out of Detroit, orphaned children and collapsing neighborhoods..

I think she is putting the chicken before the egg.

She blames the decline to loss of high paying jobs, white flight and over policing of black neighborhoods.

If high paying jobs left that employed black and white workers, i.e. auto plants, why did only the white workers leave and follow those jobs and not their black co-workers?

She implies the over policing of black neighborhoods is the reason there are so many single parent black families when that can be traced to the welfare system encouraging / rewarding single moms for getting pregnant because it guaranteed a monthly income. Btw the same thing happens overseas where single moms get council houses and a monthly stipend.

The explosion of the prison population can be traced to the increased use of narcotic drugs that somehow became the drug of choice over alcohol that previous was the standard destroyer of lives before.

Then the nail in the coffin is to normalize the deviant behavior of these actions and entrench that in the next generations mind.

The one thing I agree with is that policy makers unintentionally encouraged
the distribution of jobs through out the region by making it cheaper to open a new factory in a suburb instead of re-investing in established locations.
Open land is cheap. Tear down, remediation and rebuilding is far more expensive. The same logic that makes it cheaper to invest in poorer countries and ship the product thousands of miles to market.

The problem with that is we are spreading the toxic waste time bomb across the region, causing logistic and commuting headaches which all cry for federal dollars to correct the situation that the original policy created in the first place.

But we all have our opinions.

[Wesley Mouch]

I think she is putting the chicken before the egg.

She blames the decline to loss of high paying jobs, white flight and over policing of black neighborhoods.

If high paying jobs left that employed black and white workers, i.e. auto plants, why did only the white workers leave and follow those jobs and not their black co-workers?

She implies the over policing of black neighborhoods is the reason there are so many single parent black families when that can be traced to the welfare system encouraging / rewarding single moms for getting pregnant because it guaranteed a monthly income. Btw the same thing happens overseas where single moms get council houses and a monthly stipend.

The explosion of the prison population can be traced to the increased use of narcotic drugs that somehow became the drug of choice over alcohol that previous was the standard destroyer of lives before.

Then the nail in the coffin is to normalize the deviant behavior of these actions and entrench that in the next generations mind.

The one thing I agree with is that policy makers unintentionally encouraged
the distribution of jobs through out the region by making it cheaper to open a new factory in a suburb instead of re-investing in established locations.
Open land is cheap. Tear down, remediation and rebuilding is far more expensive. The same logic that makes it cheaper to invest in poorer countries and ship the product thousands of miles to market.

The problem with that is we are spreading the toxic waste time bomb across the region, causing logistic and commuting headaches which all cry for federal dollars to correct the situation that the original policy created in the first place.

But we all have our opinions.

I think we have a social obligation to invest in poorer countries. Its one of the only ways we'll truly find peace in the world.

Beyond that, I'll just add that the writer's view that the 'war on crime' was a major factor seems myopic.

So the writer hates 'over-policing', and finds that its the cause of Detroit's decline, as well as that underground noise near Zug Island. I'm tiring of all the world's problems being reduced to the single issue some writer supports.

Detroit's decline is super-complex, and there are hundreds of causes. I think 'over-policing' is about #200 on the list. Social decline caused by the welfare state, about #15.

My candidate for #1 reason: The assassination of Martin Luther King. Black America would have done better with his vision of the world than the black nationalist version that won the debate -- even if MLK treated women like Donald Trump did in 2005.

[Jimaz]

Thompson, though, argues that historians and others have missed an additional cause of Detroit’s unraveling: the rise since the mid-1960s of aggressive policing in black neighborhoods, along with laws that vastly increased prison sentences and the subsequent explosion of Michigan’s inmate population. That resulted in large numbers of people — mostly black males....

A recent Hartmann interview touched on this. The relevant history begins at 4:45:
DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » Prisoners Strike To Say 'We're Not Slaves!!' [[w/Guest: Maya Schenwar)

13th Amendment, Section 1: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

So slavery is still legal [[and profitable) in the U.S. but only if one is willing to go through the charade of criminalizing everything then "getting tough on crime." So that's exactly what the U.S. proceeds to do. Whatever it takes!

America. What a country!

[GMan]

I think we have a social obligation to invest in poorer countries. Its one of the only ways we'll truly find peace in the world.

Beyond that, I'll just add that the writer's view that the 'war on crime' was a major factor seems myopic.

So the writer hates 'over-policing', and finds that its the cause of Detroit's decline, as well as that underground noise near Zug Island. I'm tiring of all the world's problems being reduced to the single issue some writer supports.

Detroit's decline is super-complex, and there are hundreds of causes. I think 'over-policing' is about #200 on the list. Social decline caused by the welfare state, about #15.

Interesting rankings wesley, I never attempted to rank the issues.

Yes we should invest in poorer countries. That said, We shouldn't dis-invest in this country to do it.

That is the problem with the current global setup. It allows players to move about the globe in the guise of spreading prosperity while walking away from previous commitments.

[Wesley Mouch]

Interesting rankings wesley, I never attempted to rank the issues.

Yes we should invest in poorer countries. That said, We shouldn't dis-invest in this country to do it.

That is the problem with the current global setup. It allows players to move about the globe in the guise of spreading prosperity while walking away from previous commitments.

I agree that we shouldn't dis-invest in our own country. But I don't see disinvestment. I see massive investment in our cities.

That isn't to say we don't have big-time problems. And I do think that we did rely on incarceration and criminalization too much. But I just don't see a strong connection between the 'war on crime' and, say, the failure of urban schools. We spend, spend, spend... we invest, invest, invest. Same results. No connection in my mind.

[Honky Tonk]

Thoughts?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...line/92459474/

For the most part, academics attribute the city’s abandonment, poverty and decay to the disappearance of high-paying industrial jobs, white flight, discrimination in housing and employment, and government decisions that favored suburban development.
Thompson, though, argues that historians and others have missed an additional cause of Detroit’s unraveling: the rise since the mid-1960s of aggressive policing in black neighborhoods, along with laws that vastly increased prison sentences and the subsequent explosion of Michigan’s inmate population. That resulted in large numbers of people — mostly black males — yanked out of Detroit, orphaned children and collapsing neighborhoods..

Let me get this straight, all the white people "flew" out of the City in solidarity over the over policing in black neighborhoods? The black fathers also took off because of the over policing in black neighborhoods. Everyone took off because of the over policing in black neighborhoods. Coleman Young gets elected, puts an end to over policing in black neighborhoods, and the murder rate spikes to 714. Makes me wonder how the good professor is able to breathe with her head stuck up a tight cavity.

[Dumpling]

In another thread, I noticed that before Crimemapping stopped reporting for
Detroit, at the time Mayor Duggan took office, it could be observed that more
OWIs by far happened in Royal Oak and down the Woodward Corridor until 8 Mile,
then...only just a few OWIs in Detroit. Although rather improved under Mayor
Duggan there are still some drug houses in Warrendale where I live, and still
young African American men being killed either in a drug house or for no good
reason while shoveling Grandma's walk. It may well be that Royal Oak may have
just as many drug houses as Warrendale but the persons living there don't hang
out in the streets at all hours waiting for their drive through customers. Haven't
seen this in Royal Oak so far.

[Dumpling]

On several occasions, while at community meetings and elsewhere, I heard
tales of residents having to take videos of drug transactions to turn over to
police in order for police action to be taken. Merely reporting a possible drug
house was not enough. To be fair this was in the pre - Duggan bankruptcy
era.
When action is finally taken, the police usually arrive as a group, in several squad
cars if not the battle wagons, fully armed as they expect the drug crew to be, and
yeah, they have shot the pit bull at those houses.

[Dumpling]

The professor is probably familiar with the recent book out titled "Writing My
Wrongs" by Shaka Senghor, a former drug crew member and convicted murderer
from Detroit.

In his book he lays out various stages of his life in a way that suggests where
intervention could have been helpful, how hard intervention would have been
at certain points, and how our money is relatively misdirected when locking
offenders up for long sentences as opposed to supporting community based
early interventions targeting violence and substance abuse.

To be fair to the opposing viewpoint, the drug lifestyle has to appear more
attractive to some than the blue collar jobs Detroiters often do. And fewer
help wanted signs per street length can be seen in Detroit as compared to
suburban Detroit.

[Dumpling]

We The People are living and learning. Back in the eighties the ACLU was against
random drug testing of students in cases where there was no apparent reason to
suspect drug use. Maybe five years back, there was a switch in emphasis on the
part of the ACLU to preventing the "School to Prison" pipeline. Do we now support
blanket drug testing of students but think of this practice instead as analogous to
school required vaccinations?

[Hermod]

I agree that we shouldn't dis-invest in our own country. But I don't see disinvestment. I see massive investment in our cities.

That isn't to say we don't have big-time problems. And I do think that we did rely on incarceration and criminalization too much. But I just don't see a strong connection between the 'war on crime' and, say, the failure of urban schools. We spend, spend, spend... we invest, invest, invest. Same results. No connection in my mind.

We "spend on" our domestic urban problems. I am not sure we "invest in" solutions to those problems.

[Danny]

I think she is putting the chicken before the egg.

She blames the decline to loss of high paying jobs, white flight and over policing of black neighborhoods.

If high paying jobs left that employed black and white workers, i.e. auto plants, why did only the white workers leave and follow those jobs and not their black co-workers?

She implies the over policing of black neighborhoods is the reason there are so many single parent black families when that can be traced to the welfare system encouraging / rewarding single moms for getting pregnant because it guaranteed a monthly income. Btw the same thing happens overseas where single moms get council houses and a monthly stipend.

The explosion of the prison population can be traced to the increased use of narcotic drugs that somehow became the drug of choice over alcohol that previous was the standard destroyer of lives before.

Then the nail in the coffin is to normalize the deviant behavior of these actions and entrench that in the next generations mind.

The one thing I agree with is that policy makers unintentionally encouraged
the distribution of jobs through out the region by making it cheaper to open a new factory in a suburb instead of re-investing in established locations.
Open land is cheap. Tear down, remediation and rebuilding is far more expensive. The same logic that makes it cheaper to invest in poorer countries and ship the product thousands of miles to market.

The problem with that is we are spreading the toxic waste time bomb across the region, causing logistic and commuting headaches which all cry for federal dollars to correct the situation that the original policy created in the first place.

But we all have our opinions.

Literally that U of M professor means the blame of "automobile industry" and their attack on the unions and middle class by means of race and class which lead to rise of everyday crime in Detroit and the decline of middle class.

[Bobl]

It could be argued that Detroit's decline began when the first fort, lumber harvesting, and ribbon farms arrived, destroying a pristine ecosystem.

[GMan]

Literally that U of M professor means the blame of "automobile industry" and their attack on the unions and middle class by means of race and class which lead to rise of everyday crime in Detroit and the decline of middle class.

The book was probably influenced by Michael Moore's "Roger and Me"

[Wesley Mouch]

Let me get this straight, all the white people "flew" out of the City in solidarity over the over policing in black neighborhoods? The black fathers also took off because of the over policing in black neighborhoods. Everyone took off because of the over policing in black neighborhoods. Coleman Young gets elected, puts an end to over policing in black neighborhoods, and the murder rate spikes to 714. Makes me wonder how the good professor is able to breathe with her head stuck up a tight cavity.

If you're a hammer, everything looks like a naill

If you're an social justice advocate, everything looks like social injustice.

[canuck]

If you're a hammer, everything looks like a naill

If you're an social justice advocate, everything looks like social injustice.

If you are a white house painter, you paint white houses; if you a Black Panther, you pain' houses black. Simpo troof.

[iheartthed]

I don't get why people insist on drawing a causal relationship between the socioeconomic problems of black Americans and the decline of Detroit. Black residents made up less than 20% of the city's population when the overall population went into decline. If Detroit's population today was still 1.85 million residents then today's black Detroiter population would be about 32% of the city's population.

[Hypestyles]

A combination of "all of the above" is responsible. deindustrialization, over-policing, anti-urban state and federal policy [[and policymakers), racial-driven relocation, and more.

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't get why people insist on drawing a causal relationship between the socioeconomic problems of black Americans and the decline of Detroit. Black residents made up less than 20% of the city's population when the overall population went into decline. If Detroit's population today was still 1.85 million residents then today's black Detroiter population would be about 32% of the city's population.

Are you suggesting this Detroit's single-biggest problem wasn't socioeconomic problems of black Americans?

Perhaps we have different definitions of socioeconomic problems?

Detroit's white population fell because whites left.

Perhaps you weren't around here in the 60s and 70s. Three racially-charged events changed Detroit.

1) Forced bussing of schoolchildren to achieve racial numerical parity in Detroit's schools.

2) A race-riot.

3) Election of black-nationalist Coleman A. Young as Mayor.

Don't underestimate #1. For most white families, they either moved as quickly as possible, or started saving up to get out as soon as they could afford a new house in the 'burbs. Of course some of it was Archie Bunker racism, but a lot of it was just simple concern for their kids. They didn't want their kids going to school in Detroit's inner city -- with its socioeconomic problems.

The riots scared people, but bussing was #1.

#2 was CAY, who I personally admire in many ways. With CAY's election, white residents knew they weren't much wanted. Reverse bigotry was municipally endorsed.

[canuck]

Are you suggesting this Detroit's single-biggest problem wasn't socioeconomic problems of black Americans?

Perhaps we have different definitions of socioeconomic problems?

Detroit's white population fell because whites left.

Perhaps you weren't around here in the 60s and 70s. Three racially-charged events changed Detroit.

1) Forced bussing of schoolchildren to achieve racial numerical parity in Detroit's schools.

2) A race-riot.

3) Election of black-nationalist Coleman A. Young as Mayor.

Don't underestimate #1. For most white families, they either moved as quickly as possible, or started saving up to get out as soon as they could afford a new house in the 'burbs. Of course some of it was Archie Bunker racism, but a lot of it was just simple concern for their kids. They didn't want their kids going to school in Detroit's inner city -- with its socioeconomic problems.

The riots scared people, but bussing was #1.

#2 was CAY, who I personally admire in many ways. With CAY's election, white residents knew they weren't much wanted. Reverse bigotry was municipally endorsed.

Blacks suffered the socioeconomic problems that a white socioeconomic system had dished out on them.

Bussing came after Cay came into power and "enforced" by federal courts. No amount of reverse discrimination would have changed the way this "landmark" mechanism proved to be a shot in the dark.


Bussing hardly changed the melanin composition/redistribution of Detroit schools.

Be careful not to put the manure before the horse though, Wesley. It seems as though your description is chronological when in fact, the ignominious bussing wasn't anterior to CAY's reign nor the riots. It happened in the seventies.

[archfan]

A couple of things:
1. The professor acknowledges the effects of de-industrialization and white flight, and adds this as yet another factor in the decline of cities.
2. One of Coleman Young's biggest position was anti-STRESS, which was the definition of heavy policing.

A pdf of her paper is here: http://goo.gl/rZ1LDz

[noise]

Let me get this straight, all the white people "flew" out of the City in solidarity over the over policing in black neighborhoods? The black fathers also took off because of the over policing in black neighborhoods. Everyone took off because of the over policing in black neighborhoods. Coleman Young gets elected, puts an end to over policing in black neighborhoods, and the murder rate spikes to 714. Makes me wonder how the good professor is able to breathe with her head stuck up a tight cavity.

As usual, you didn't get it straight. Did you even read the professor's article?

[GMan]

Blacks suffered the socioeconomic problems that a white socioeconomic system had dished out on them.....

I'm curious how you can cling to that notion, when jobs in the auto plant were numerous and both black and white workers made the same?
Now getting a job in the auto plant was hard because of nepotism but once in the workers made the union wage.

Loss of plentiful jobs and an increase in crime led to an imbalance which exploded into the riots in 67. This increased an already established trend of population decline with those of means leaving a decaying situation. The heavy tactics used on crime was an attempt to counter this problem but distrust of the majority white force was an obstacle to achieving trust.
Fast forward today to where the police force is integrated. How does one account for the disrespect law enforcement gets while trying to make the streets safe?
Somewhere along the way an agreement must be made on what is acceptable behavior.
Is theft acceptable? How about a little narcotic use? Prostitution? What about assault?
Okay murder? When do police have the need/right to intercede to stop a bad situation and protect someone's life or property.

People will congregate in cities again when these questions are answered.

[jiminnm]

Blacks suffered the socioeconomic problems that a white socioeconomic system had dished out on them.

Bussing came after Cay came into power and "enforced" by federal courts. No amount of reverse discrimination would have changed the way this "landmark" mechanism proved to be a shot in the dark.


Bussing hardly changed the melanin composition/redistribution of Detroit schools.

Be careful not to put the manure before the horse though, Wesley. It seems as though your description is chronological when in fact, the ignominious bussing wasn't anterior to CAY's reign nor the riots. It happened in the seventies.

Busing began within the Detroit school district in the 1950s. I was in grade school in Detroit then and, as a response to Brown v. Bd of Ed, students were bused into my school starting 1956-1957.

The issue in the late 1960s into the 1970s was the cross district busing of students between the 40-50 school districts in metro Detroit, including Detroit. That was settled by a 1974 U.S. Supreme Court decision.