M1 Rail Project Construction Delayed Until 2010

**digitalvision** · August-17-09, 02:25 PM

So, it looks like the privately funded rail line construction is going to be delayed until 2010 to coordinate with DTOGS - but also, that they are not going to create a joint effort and that they are separate projects, contrary to "online rumors."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...E/908179982/-1

I am of two minds. First is coordination is a good thing. But the second is momentum. Every delay slows down momentum and gives more opportunity for derailment [[no pun intended), and it puts things out another year. It sounds scarily like plans in the past which are big talk, but then get lost in the weeds.

**ASR89** · August-17-09, 02:51 PM

Everytime I think of the M1 Rail Project, I shake my head. 2nd lane from curb? Co-mingling with traffic? No stoplight control? That isn't mass transit. It just sounds like a glorified bus. Once the tracks are in the pavement, they're there forever. The DTOGS plan just seems like the superior plan. I'd rather wait longer for the whole line and have a good system, than to have 3 miles soon [[with the rest added later of course) that are not of a good plan.

Also, in before trainman.

**French777** · August-17-09, 03:38 PM

Approximately $180 million — the $125 million being raised by M1 Rail and $55 million programmed by DDOT — has been earmarked toward the estimated $220 million needed to match a federal grant, the city has said.

Zitny also confirmed that, contrary to online rumors, the projects are not merging and will remain separate efforts.

That confuses me....So they are combining the monies but two different projects?

**BShea** · August-17-09, 03:48 PM

French: The money M1 Rail spends on its own project can be applied as a sort of "credit" toward the local matching money the feds will require of DDOT -- even though they're a different but linked project.

This is what the M1 and DDOT organizers are trying to sort out with federal officials.

I'm not sure how a credit will pay for anything, however. If the local match is in the form of a credit spent on something else, you are short that amount for the cost of your own project, no? DDOT's plan is $371 million, of which the feds say a certain part must be a local match.

Now, if DDOT's plan has been revised to include just New Center to 8 Mile, they haven't said that, despite my asking. Logically, a shorter route would cost less, so they wouldn't need $371 million -- but that's the amount they're talking about when it comes to the local match and $55 million for DDOT itself.

Stay tuned. The mess will get sorted out.

**French777** · August-17-09, 03:51 PM

Thanks BShea so it might be "curbside" till New Center then "Center of the street" from New Center to 8mile?

**BShea** · August-17-09, 03:57 PM

Last I heard, that's the plan -- a switch-over roughly at New Center or north. Transit experts have told me it's been done elsewhere.

Makes sense to me -- the highly dense downtown doesn't need a fast commuter train because it has stops every couple of blocks, and north of downtown you don't want slower modern streetcars. You want faster trains geared more toward commuters.

Sounds like they're trying to hammer it out.

**Tig3rzhark** · August-17-09, 04:57 PM

The M1 Rail, should it be from Hart Plaza to New Center area, wouldn't really make any sense.

There is barely any space currently on Woodward from Park Ave, to Jefferson. Plus, we already have the People Mover downtown.

Just start at Grand Circus Park and build the tracks to New Center area.

If there are too many stops on this M1 Rail, then it will be no faster than the 53 Woodward.

**1KielsonDrive** · August-17-09, 05:47 PM

We ain't never going to see a mass transit system in our life times. Detroit Metro is about 50 years behind every other major city in the US and a hundred years behind European cities. For krist sake, Detroit and suburbs can't agree on Cobo, much less plan an actual modern transit system.

Lorax · August-17-09, 05:55 PM

Yeah, in better times, if FDR had control of the situation, Detroit would have a rail line up each major street as it did when it had streetcars, and a subway to boot.

What we need is a WPA to put people back to work building things that equal what is being built by the so-called "socialist" Europeans, who can easily get bullet trains, light rail, subways, and the like, built in no time. It's doubtful we'll ever catch up.

Leaving anything to the private sector, and these quasi-public/private entities is such a clusterfuck, and a waste of time. And what you get as a result is crap.

**Hypestyles** · August-17-09, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Lorax

Yeah, in better times, if FDR had control of the situation, Detroit would have a rail line up each major street as it did when it had streetcars, and a subway to boot.

What we need is a WPA to put people back to work building things that equal what is being built by the so-called "socialist" Europeans, who can easily get bullet trains, light rail, subways, and the like, built in no time. It's doubtful we'll ever catch up.

Leaving anything to the private sector, and these quasi-public/private entities is such a clusterfuck, and a waste of time. And what you get as a result is crap.

I wish things would progress better with the transit options.. I wrote a letter to the Virgin Corporation, a pitch for them to get involved with transit here, since they do it in Europe..

MIRepublic · August-17-09, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

We ain't never going to see a mass transit system in our life times. Detroit Metro is about 50 years behind every other major city in the US and a hundred years behind European cities. For krist sake, Detroit and suburbs can't agree on Cobo, much less plan an actual modern transit system.

The suburbs aren't even part of this immediate plan, so I'm not sure what you're talking about or why you are being so pessimitic. Right now, we're dealing with one municipal government with the problem seeming to arise from having two different companies and organizations fighting for very similar turf. This may fail, but your first sentence doesn't have any connection to the subsequent ones. Your paragraph "does not compute".

2blocksaway · August-17-09, 09:22 PM

This will be a terrible waste of money if it ever gets off the ground. Which I truly doubt it ever will.

It's too bad because I often ask myself " How can I get from the New Center Area to Hart Plaza slower than I do now?"

**1KielsonDrive** · August-17-09, 11:54 PM

Define 'cynicism'. Then define 'pessimism'. Lowell call's it 'glass half full'. Comes from being around Detroit for over a half-century. You can love Detroit, as I do, but you can't change Detroit, as I've tried. Take Detroit for what it is and enjoy Detroit for today. "We ain't never going to see a mass transit system in our life times".

MIRepublic · August-18-09, 12:54 AM

You actually have to have some kind of logical rationale for believing the way you do. You see what appears to be a necessary delay [[I wouldn't call this a setback), and somehow irrationally construe it to mean that this is the end of rapid mass transit in Detroit? Sir, that is quite a leap. You actually have to make a case apart from emotions and feelings as to why this spells the end of the line for DTOGS and M1Rail in Detroit. I've seen no such case made by anyone. I'm hardly a rosey-eyed optimist, but I'm not following you from Point A [[M1Rail delayed so as to coordinate with DTOGS schedule) to Point B [[the sky is/has fallen on rapid mass transit in Detroit).

**1KielsonDrive** · August-18-09, 11:22 AM

I don't have to do anything. I can comment and you can accept or reject my comments and/or arguments. You have your experiences and beliefs and I have mine. When posting here at DY, I don't expect anyone to follow me or agree with me, whether my comments are wild, logical, cogent, silly or whatever. My experience informs my comments. "We ain't never going to see a mass transit system in our lifetimes". As usual, I hope I'm wrong but suspect I'm right.

**dcmorrison12** · August-18-09, 11:25 AM

I'm thinking that we will, for sure, be seeing rapid transit in Detroit within a few years

**1KielsonDrive** · August-18-09, 11:29 AM

MIR, keep making your case and we'll see who's right in the end. I'll gladly buy you, and your significant other, dinner and drinks upon the completion of a mass transit system [[other than a funky bus system in its present incarnation or a combination), even if it never operates. If it operates, I'll buy you and yours a month long pass.

**1KielsonDrive** · August-18-09, 11:44 AM

dc, I don't know how old you guys/girls are, but I suspect you haven't been through the wringer in Detroit enough times yet. I learned many decades ago that you don't believe anything in Detroit until you've seen it and it's been there a few years. I won't even go into the dozens of projects and proposals that have been tossed around, researched, supposedly financed and fallen on their faces, never to be seen or heard from again. Skipper's Rule #1 says as much. Skipper's Rule #2 says: ban the 'R' word from our language and discussion. The 'R' word is - ssssshhhhhhhhh - [[renaisance). Oh no, I said it. I hope no one ever hears it spoken again. How many 'R's' have I been through in my lifetime? Too many to count. I'm not knocking anyone's optimism, I'm having fun making light of it. To be honest with you, optimism is a good thing. I am truly an optimist. I just can't stand people who are naive or pollyanish in their thinking and beliefs and insist that others think the same. I won't name a particular poster or moderator.

**Danny** · August-18-09, 11:58 AM

YAY!

Do you just love bureaucratic red tape. Projects to make our American society better can be cut in a flash. Go blame your leaders and not vote for them for next election year.

**dcmorrison12** · August-18-09, 01:51 PM

I'm telling you all, this project is looking REALLY good. It's going to happen, it HAS to happen.

Now, do you people believe everything the news tells you? The Crain's article was a bunch of crap written by a reporter who really doesn't know much about the project. Notice how the article DIDN'T MAKE SENSE? How can you be two separate projects work work jointly and use M-1 Rail funding as a local match for Woodward Light Rail... when it's not even part of the project!

The projects are combining into one, don't worry. They won't be two separate projects that simply just work jointly... what a load.

**dcmorrison12** · August-18-09, 01:56 PM

OH!. By the way, Woodward Light Rail [[it's not DTOGS anymore) has always had rough plans to start construction in 2010, so the project isn't truly being postponed. This is actually good news really because it's telling us that M-1 Rail is agreeing to follow along with the federal guidelines for New Starts money - making it a reality that Woodward Light Rail will get the local match that it needs and thus creating a rail line connected the Suburbs to Detroit's downtown. There's not much to worry about, the media is just trying to play the drama out on the big stage. Don't believe everything you hear in the news.

**French777** · August-18-09, 02:28 PM

Yeah wasn't the delay because of the Environmental Impact Study?

**ASR89** · August-18-09, 03:43 PM

Morrison, when I read the that Crains article in the first post, I thought back to the discussion we had recently. You sounded like you knew what was going on, and when I read this, I was rather confused.

**stasu1213** · August-18-09, 04:36 PM

I think the politician in this city will still sabatoge the idea of mass transit. There had been delay after delay for the past 80 years. As long as the Big 2 automobile companies, the unions for bus drivers, and the oil companies still has they hands in the city leaders back pockets and up their' purses, detroit will never see mass transit. It is all a talk.

**dtowncitylover** · August-18-09, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

dc, I don't know how old you guys/girls are, but I suspect you haven't been through the wringer in Detroit enough times yet. I learned many decades ago that you don't believe anything in Detroit until you've seen it and it's been there a few years. I won't even go into the dozens of projects and proposals that have been tossed around, researched, supposedly financed and fallen on their faces, never to be seen or heard from again. Skipper's Rule #1 says as much. Skipper's Rule #2 says: ban the 'R' word from our language and discussion. The 'R' word is - ssssshhhhhhhhh - [[renaisance). Oh no, I said it. I hope no one ever hears it spoken again. How many 'R's' have I been through in my lifetime? Too many to count. I'm not knocking anyone's optimism, I'm having fun making light of it. To be honest with you, optimism is a good thing. I am truly an optimist. I just can't stand people who are naive or pollyanish in their thinking and beliefs and insist that others think the same. I won't name a particular poster or moderator.

Well, I'm very glad I'm part of my generation, and not your generation.