US News ranks Detroit as top ten place for people looking for tech jobs

**mwilbert** · September-20-16, 09:41 PM

These kinds of rankings are largely arbitrary, if not silly, but as I didn't see anyone else mention it, I thought I'd link to this anyway. Detroit comes in at #4.

http://realestate.usnews.com/real-es...in-technology/

**Malcove Magnesia** · September-21-16, 01:40 AM

I wish I could be more enthusiastic about this otherwise nice mention, but if you were out looking for a tech job*, what you'll likely find is that most local employers -- especially "start-ups" -- are looking for young [[e.g. 20's, possibly early 30's) and inexperienced [[i.e. cheap) and not anyone with significant industry experience or gray hair. Out in Silicon Valley, 40+ year olds literally DO have to alter their appearance in order to compete with 20-somethings.

* I'm thankfully well employed ATM but I've hit the ageism bias a few times in the Metro area, and I am so not looking forward to having to job hunt again down the road.

**ndavies** · September-21-16, 08:15 AM

Stop with the bullshit. My company currently has 10 open positions. A mix of software and electronic engineering positions. We will take anyone of any age who can do the job. Unfortunately there aren't enough people in the area capable of doing the job.

https://www.accuratetechnologies.com/AboutATI/Careers

We've been looking to fill these positions for over 3 years. We've had some success hiring. Luckily the company is rapidly growing and we need more engineers. We have about 100 employees. We're currently successful enough to be building a brand new building that will hold 400 people. Hoping to move in at the start of next year.

If a company truly has a need for the skills and the person can provide them they will hire them. I've been a software engineer for over 30 years. The only time I've had trouble finding work was in for 5 months in 2009 after the auto companies shed so many people. Since then I have been hounded by old friends and headhunters to see if I need a new job.

**ABetterDetroit** · September-22-16, 12:55 PM

It is a nice pleasant change to make the good lists instead of the bad ones even if it is only for perception.

**1953** · September-23-16, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by ndavies

Stop with the bullshit. My company currently has 10 open positions. A mix of software and electronic engineering positions. We will take anyone of any age who can do the job. Unfortunately there aren't enough people in the area capable of doing the job.

https://www.accuratetechnologies.com/AboutATI/Careers

We've been looking to fill these positions for over 3 years. We've had some success hiring. Luckily the company is rapidly growing and we need more engineers. We have about 100 employees. We're currently successful enough to be building a brand new building that will hold 400 people. Hoping to move in at the start of next year.

If a company truly has a need for the skills and the person can provide them they will hire them. I've been a software engineer for over 30 years. The only time I've had trouble finding work was in for 5 months in 2009 after the auto companies shed so many people. Since then I have been hounded by old friends and headhunters to see if I need a new job.

What are control system development tools?

Also, has your company considered relocating downtown?

1953

**canuck** · September-23-16, 01:02 PM

It seems pretty logical that an industrial mecca like Detroit would have a multiplicity of high tech jobs. So much goes into car manufacturing processes and products that didn't exist even 20 years ago.

**ndavies** · September-23-16, 01:49 PM

The multiple computer chips in your car are control systems. The engines computer is one of them.

We make tools to measure and calibrate vehicle computers. Our core products are tools that allow the engineers to plug their laptops into the control computers. It allows them to debug vehicle engines. Our tools will work on almost any control system, not just vehicles.

Our biggest customers are Ford, Harley Davidson, Caterpillar, Kia, Hyundai and Honda. Most of our end users are at vehicle research centers and test tracks. If you've seen a Ford driving around with wires taped to the outside, Those wires usually lead back to our equipment.

Our biggest competitor is a division of a Germany company that makes engine controllers.

No, the company didn't look downtown. We need a large piece of land for Vehicles and garages. While our new building is 3x the size of the building we're in now, the property was purchased with the ability to double the size of the new building.

We're also a single owner company, Owner wanted to be in Novi. Hence the new building is being built near the I-96, I-696, I-275 interchange.

**canuck** · September-23-16, 02:22 PM

Ndavies, why is it so difficult to find the right people in your field in Metro Detroit? I heard a radio interview on local radio about same in the aerospace industry in Montreal where even immigrants that were brought into engineering positions sometimes quit to work for a few ucks more at another company. On the other hand, companies lay off workers in droves and don't always commit to a region. Are the schools sufficiently tied into the industry demands?

**Honky Tonk** · September-23-16, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Ndavies, why is it so difficult to find the right people in your field in Metro Detroit? I heard a radio interview on local radio about same in the aerospace industry in Montreal where even immigrants that were brought into engineering positions sometimes quit to work for a few ucks more at another company. On the other hand, companies lay off workers in droves and don't always commit to a region. Are the schools sufficiently tied into the industry demands?

Damn those immigrants!!! Taking ucks away from Canadian citizens!

**canuck** · September-23-16, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Damn those immigrants!!! Taking ucks away from Canadian citizens!

it ucks, doesn't it?

**mwilbert** · September-23-16, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

Stop with the bullshit. My company currently has 10 open positions. A mix of software and electronic engineering positions. We will take anyone of any age who can do the job. Unfortunately there aren't enough people in the area capable of doing the job.

I have no knowledge of how your company evaluates candidates so I am in no way intending to comment on your company's hiring practices, but it is completely usual for companies that practice age discrimination to also say they would hire any qualified candidate. Then they evaluate qualifications in ways that disadvantage older applicants, devaluing longer-ago training, emphasizing skills that are currently in vogue, and hence currently being taught, devaluing experience with software and tools which are simliar to or perhaps even previous versions of those being used by the enterprise. Or simply judging by the candidate's apparent age. There is also often a prejudice against hiring older experienced workers who would have to be supervised by younger less-experienced ones.

I wouldn't even claim that this is always unreasonable--some skills are very specific, and some people aren't fast learners, but the idea that it is a made-up problem flies in the face of a lot of research.

**ndavies** · September-23-16, 09:36 PM

Ndavies, why is it so difficult to find the right people in your field in Metro Detroit?

It's just a numbers game. Not enough people are choosing to become engineers/programmers.

Every known industry now needs software. The auto companies have realized they now need many software engineers to design and build automated cars.

Huge demand, small supply. Small companies are at a huge disadvantage. Most software people either want to work for one of the big names or start there own company.

I believe the problem starts in middle school. Too many dull science and math classes. too many children choosing other career paths. Thankfully, This is changing. There is a push to get better STEM coursework. The best is the robotics competitions.

Changing jobs is about the only way to get a raise in a less than 1% inflation environment.

I'm an immigrant, I've lived in the area for 35 years. My parents moved my family to Montreal when I was 4. We moved to the Detroit area a few years later.

**bust** · September-25-16, 01:53 PM

ndavies, I'll second the opinion that a likely big part of your company's problem attracting talent is its chosen location. It makes working for your company difficult for at least half of the Detroit metro population. And it makes it unattractive to a high percentage of people who may otherwise consider relocating to Detroit to work there, particularly young people. Some would be happy living in the exurbs. Many wouldn't. Especially if they're new to the area.

It sounds like a good business decision to locate where there is ample room for garages and future growth, but vacant land is in no short supply in more central locations. And it sounds like a terrible business decision if the reason for locating in Novi was to shorten the owner's commute at the expense of his or her employees', particularly if it brings with it added difficulty attracting talent.

EDIT: I'll walk that back a bit. Because the company has been located in the general area for a long time at this point I imagine most of the employees already live nearby. If so, moving somewhere central wouldn't make the commute better for them. But it would likely help attract future employees. In any case, I don't mean to criticize. My brother lives out there, and is a happily employed engineer. I know the talent is there. If perhaps not enough supply to meet the demand.

**ndavies** · September-25-16, 06:14 PM

Sorry Novi is the one of the center of high tech auto industry in the area. The I-275/I-696/I-96/M5 is where many of the high tech automotive companies are going. Bosch just built a huge building at I-275/M14. Infineon just built a medium size facility at I-275 and 6 mile.

Uber just announced they are opening a Novi office.

Don't forget Apple, Google, Microsoft and amazon all have huge suburban campuses. Most of there employees who want to live in the city are bussed out to the suburbs in private shuttle buses. Yet they have no issues attracting people.

Our engineers come from the entire region. None of them want to be in Detroit. The want good schools for their kids. They want to be home in time to enjoy there kids lives. It's about quality of life. Once you no longer need to live next to a bar, living in the city losses much of it's appeal.

**bust** · September-25-16, 07:22 PM

I don't question whether the auto companies are primarily a suburban affair. That's certainly the case. But I do suggest that's one reason they have a harder time attracting engineering talent, particularly as cars become ever more computerized, and if they're hoping to recruit from out of state. Some of those engineers would be interested in living in Detroit. And a more central location would provide a shorter commute to people who live on the east side and downriver.

Three of the four tech companies you cited are headquartered in suburban locations. But two of the three established their headquarters there in a previous era. And Amazon has famously spent heavily establishing their headquarters in downtown Seattle precisely because Jeff Bezos [[etc.) believes it helps them attract the best engineering talent:

Amazon’s Bezos: Suburban HQ ‘would have been the wrong decision’

http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazons...rong-decision/

The Amazon model: 4 reasons your company should move to the heart of the city

http://www.geekwire.com/2014/company...rban-neighbor/

In fact Bezos has said he doesn't need to pay as well or provide as many perks to his employees because he's already providing them a great downtown location:

Jeff Bezos: An Urban Office Is A Better Perk Than Free Massages

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_6257246.html

Dan Gilbert reportedly moved Quicken Loans downtown for the same reason. And many of his employees do seem to want to live in Detroit:

Dan Gilbert: 3,100 Quicken employees now live in Detroit

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ight/82460736/

Regarding the other three tech companies you mentioned, their headquarters are suburban, but all have opened major offices in urban locations in order to draw the talent they need to compete.

Apple is opening a chic new 500-person office in downtown San Francisco

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-app...nt-wars-2016-3

Google has opened major engineering offices in New York, San Francisco, Seattle, Cambridge MA, Los Angeles, London, Zurich, Munich, Dublin, Tel Aviv, Hyderabad, Tokyo, Singapore, and so on:

https://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/

Microsoft lags here. But they lag generally. And even they have a fair number of engineers employed in New York, San Francisco, and several other cities -- both in the US and around the world. It's noteworthy that their Microsoft Research offices -- where they do the most cutting edge work -- are not just in Redmond and Bellvue, but in New York, Cambridge MA, Cambridge England, Beijing, and Bangalore. In some cases, at least, they go to the top talent rather than expecting the talent to come to them:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/about/

I don't know what's right for your company. I hope they've found the perfect location. And if Detroit continues its comeback it can only be good for them.

**RaumVogel** · September-26-16, 06:32 AM

I have an associates in IT and I have a problem with investing further in certs/education without finding work at a company that will allow me to advance.I've had IT jobs but the company wants me to commit to all kinds of extra student debt.Then MAYBE they would allow me to advance.
How about a company that advances you and allows you to prove yourself before requiring you to go deep into debt.That would be nice.

**masterblaster** · September-28-16, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by ndavies

Our engineers come from the entire region. None of them want to be in Detroit. The want good schools for their kids. They want to be home in time to enjoy there kids lives. It's about quality of life. Once you no longer need to live next to a bar, living in the city losses much of it's appeal.

Urban living is more than just bars. It's about being in walking/biking distance to museums [[DIA, MOCAD), performing arts [[opera, Wayne State Theatre, comedy), concerts and live music venues, professional sports venues, vibrant public squares [[Campus Martius), urban recreational facilities [[Dequindre Cut, Riverwalk, Belle Isle), ethnic restaurants and districts, quirky & independent shops, large variety of independent restaurants, public Markets [[Eastern Market), urban academic institution programming open to the public [[Wayne State & CCS), concentration of young professionals, etc.

I understand what you are saying. A lot of young professionals don't care for urban lifestyles, and once young professionals start families they aren't putting up with the safety and poor schools issue of the city.

**masterblaster** · September-28-16, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by bust

I don't question whether the auto companies are primarily a suburban affair. That's certainly the case. But I do suggest that's one reason they have a harder time attracting engineering talent, particularly as cars become ever more computerized, and if they're hoping to recruit from out of state. Some of those engineers would be interested in living in Detroit. And a more central location would provide a shorter commute to people who live on the east side and downriver.

Three of the four tech companies you cited are headquartered in suburban locations. But two of the three established their headquarters there in a previous era. And Amazon has famously spent heavily establishing their headquarters in downtown Seattle precisely because Jeff Bezos [[etc.) believes it helps them attract the best engineering talent:

Amazon’s Bezos: Suburban HQ ‘would have been the wrong decision’

http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazons...rong-decision/

The Amazon model: 4 reasons your company should move to the heart of the city

http://www.geekwire.com/2014/company...rban-neighbor/

In fact Bezos has said he doesn't need to pay as well or provide as many perks to his employees because he's already providing them a great downtown location:

Jeff Bezos: An Urban Office Is A Better Perk Than Free Massages

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_6257246.html

Dan Gilbert reportedly moved Quicken Loans downtown for the same reason. And many of his employees do seem to want to live in Detroit:

Dan Gilbert: 3,100 Quicken employees now live in Detroit

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ight/82460736/

Regarding the other three tech companies you mentioned, their headquarters are suburban, but all have opened major offices in urban locations in order to draw the talent they need to compete.

Apple is opening a chic new 500-person office in downtown San Francisco

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-app...nt-wars-2016-3

Google has opened major engineering offices in New York, San Francisco, Seattle, Cambridge MA, Los Angeles, London, Zurich, Munich, Dublin, Tel Aviv, Hyderabad, Tokyo, Singapore, and so on:

https://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/

Microsoft lags here. But they lag generally. And even they have a fair number of engineers employed in New York, San Francisco, and several other cities -- both in the US and around the world. It's noteworthy that their Microsoft Research offices -- where they do the most cutting edge work -- are not just in Redmond and Bellvue, but in New York, Cambridge MA, Cambridge England, Beijing, and Bangalore. In some cases, at least, they go to the top talent rather than expecting the talent to come to them:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/about/

I don't know what's right for your company. I hope they've found the perfect location. And if Detroit continues its comeback it can only be good for them.

Thank you for your thoughtful, non-combative post that presents a perspective opposite of ndavies with a lot of supporting articles

**ndavies** · September-28-16, 11:45 AM

Apple just built a 13000 employee headquarters in Cupertino. they're calling it the spaceship. Doesn't look like any downtown I've ever seen. Facebook Runs shuttles that take an hour to get from San Francisco to Menlo Park where Facebook is located.

And lets not forget the techies being priced out of downtowns.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...or-1-3-million

**ndavies** · September-28-16, 12:08 PM

just because you want to live downtown doesn't mean you can.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...yers-push-back

**ndavies** · September-28-16, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by RaumVogel

I have an associates in IT and I have a problem with investing further in certs/education without finding work at a company that will allow me to advance.I've had IT jobs but the company wants me to commit to all kinds of extra student debt.Then MAYBE they would allow me to advance.
How about a company that advances you and allows you to prove yourself before requiring you to go deep into debt.That would be nice.

RaumVogel, You are thinking of this completely backwards. As an engineer you must commit to ongoing training. I've been an engineer for over 30 years, the knowledge I learned in school is completely outdated now. Nobody does discrete transistors, Nobody hand tapes circuit boards. CAD systems were just being invented. The first IBM PC just came out. Microsoft had just pitched MS-OS to IBM. Without a constant update of my skills I would be out of work. The biggest thing I learned in University is how to continue learning.

You need to get those certifications to advance your career. Without the qualifications in hand, you will never get the best jobs or the promotions. It's a competition. Other people will be applying with those credentials, You'll never make it past the first cut if you don't also have them. Most companies want to see that you'll invest in yourself before they will invest in you.

Most of the engineering companies I've worked for have tuition re-imbursement programs. Most will cover tuition on a sliding scale based on the grades you get. An A at 100%, a B at 80% and so on. The auto companies also have deals with universities to get paid accelerated masters programs. The auto-companies used to allow paid time to complete homework in these accelerated programs.

Most of companies also cover seminars, trade shows and specialized training. They need their engineers to be up to the current technology.

Continuing education is a major perk that companies can write off on their taxes. This is an important question to ask when you interview. "What are your tuition re-imbursement programs?" if they say none, Then you should be looking for another company to work for.

We're also in an environment where the the GIG economy is growing. I don't believe you can expect to be at a company for 35 years. You will get the best and quickest promotions by changing companies on a regular basis. I've had about 10 employers in my career so far. Those extra credentials make finding work so much easier.

With the credentials, you will start earning enough money where the education costs look reasonable. When you're earning over 6 figures, those classes don't look so expensive.