Security Downtown

**det** · September-20-16, 12:53 AM

The security guards walking around downtown really do absolutely nothing. I have seen them stand and watch fights happen multiple times downtown. It is pretty ridiculous for Gilbert and other developers to expect people to want to live downtown when this is still happening.

Today there was a fight between a man and a woman, right on Woodward in front of the Jazz liqueur store [[where most of these people hangout, every day). The man threw some construction material into the street and they got pushed up against someones car.

These things happening all the time downtown are very uncomfortable and just awkward for people. Obviously the panhandling cannot be eliminated, but needs to be moderated to a sensible level at least. You cannot walk down one street more than 3 blocks without people coming up to you. This is not an exaggeration.

So please, whoever works for these companies downtown and moderates these threads [[Bedrock), this is still a really serious and annoying concern for residents. Especially women, who really do not feel safe at all walking back to their apartments anytime after dark right downtown.

Whoever is wasting money on these 'security guards' [[who are all pretty much kids aged 20-25 on their cell phones walking in circles most of the day) need to watch some video clips and hold their employees to higher standard of 'security.' Or hire actual security, not just random people who wear security uniforms.

Honestly, this problem has gotten worse and is getting annoying. I don't want people following me every time I walk to my car and then cussing at me if I don't toss them a quarter.

**Zacha341** · September-20-16, 06:01 AM

Yeah some of the pan handlers are pretty aggressive. Ignoring them use to work, now they have to curse you out just because your not willing to take the risk to engage them with your money. The 'curse out' only reminds you why you don't!

**dtowncitylover** · September-20-16, 06:51 AM

I always thought these security guards were monitoring Gilbert owned buildings not public spaces. It sounds like that fight would be more of a PD problem, not private security guard problems. I'm not sure if the building Jazz is in is Gilbert owned or not, but if it is, and that fight happened inside the store, then I think that's where the security guards would step in.

I get Gilbert owns half [[or more) of downtown, but he doesn't own the sidewalks, that's public and therefore would fall under the jurisdiction of the police. And just because he's the largest property owner down there doesn't mean he's obligated to be a quasi-police department for all of downtown.

**Bham1982** · September-20-16, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by det

Today there was a fight between a man and a woman, right on Woodward in front of the Jazz liqueur store [[where most of these people hangout, every day). The man threw some construction material into the street and they got pushed up against someones car.

These things happening all the time downtown are very uncomfortable and just awkward for people.

I'm no Gilbert fan, and definitely a DYes skeptic when it comes to Detroit, but IMO your problem isn't with Gilbert or Detroit; it's with cities.

Metro Detroiters have a very suburban mentality. They supposedly want a revitalized downtown, but don't really want anything in downtown except for parking garages, sports stadia and theme restaurants. Exhibit A- effort to move courts and jail out of downtown.

Center cities are only successful when they're open, democratic places for all people. This includes dummies who may occasionally punch each other out. I've seen this behavior in NYC, SF, Paris and London, BTW [[saw basically a whole street brawl last time I was in Paris, right by Sacre-Coeur). This is what happens, occasionally, when millions of people are in close contact. Chaos is an occasional byproduct of successful urbanity.

But people in this area are so used to suburban isolation that they don't get what makes cities vibrant. The streets need to public and open to all, not privatized spaces with mall-like security and suburbanized norms.

Yeah, the behavior is anti-social and should be discouraged. No, it isn't a major issue, and anyone who is "scared" to come downtown because of this doesn't really want an urban setting anyways.

**dtowncitylover** · September-20-16, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I'm no Gilbert fan, and definitely a DYes skeptic when it comes to Detroit, but IMO your problem isn't with Gilbert or Detroit; it's with cities.

Metro Detroiters have a very suburban mentality. They supposedly want a revitalized downtown, but don't really want anything in downtown except for parking garages, sports stadia and theme restaurants. Exhibit A- effort to move courts and jail out of downtown.

Center cities are only successful when they're open, democratic places for all people. This includes dummies who may occasionally punch each other out. I've seen this behavior in NYC, SF, Paris and London, BTW [[saw basically a whole street brawl last time I was in Paris, right by Sacre-Coeur). This is what happens, occasionally, when millions of people are in close contact. Chaos is an occasional byproduct of successful urbanity.

But people in this area are so used to suburban isolation that they don't get what makes cities vibrant. The streets need to public and open to all, not privatized spaces with mall-like security and suburbanized norms.

Yeah, the behavior is anti-social and should be discouraged. No, it isn't a major issue, and anyone who is "scared" to come downtown because of this doesn't really want an urban setting anyways.

Wow Bham! Agreed!

And what we are used to also is being in downtown Detroit "alone" as opposed to walking among crowds like one does on Michigan Ave, Broadway, or Champs-Elysees. So street people usually outnumber us because you can be the only person on Woodward at John R and there isn't another person within 50 feet who isn't a street person. That is indeed changing though...

**TTime** · September-20-16, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I'm no Gilbert fan, and definitely a DYes skeptic when it comes to Detroit, but IMO your problem isn't with Gilbert or Detroit; it's with cities.

Metro Detroiters have a very suburban mentality. They supposedly want a revitalized downtown, but don't really want anything in downtown except for parking garages, sports stadia and theme restaurants. Exhibit A- effort to move courts and jail out of downtown.

Center cities are only successful when they're open, democratic places for all people. This includes dummies who may occasionally punch each other out. I've seen this behavior in NYC, SF, Paris and London, BTW [[saw basically a whole street brawl last time I was in Paris, right by Sacre-Coeur). This is what happens, occasionally, when millions of people are in close contact. Chaos is an occasional byproduct of successful urbanity.

But people in this area are so used to suburban isolation that they don't get what makes cities vibrant. The streets need to public and open to all, not privatized spaces with mall-like security and suburbanized norms.

Yeah, the behavior is anti-social and should be discouraged. No, it isn't a major issue, and anyone who is "scared" to come downtown because of this doesn't really want an urban setting anyways.

"Center cities are only successful when they're open, democratic places for all people" I agree with everything you said in this post but I get the feeling that some people [[not talking about you) want Gilbertville to be a larger version of Birmingham and not a real city. For people like me that would be very unappealing.

**ekleezy** · September-20-16, 09:56 AM

Like someone else already said, Gilbert's security is more so watching his buildings. They don't have authority to directly intervene in public spaces. However, that doesn't mean they aren't alerting police when they see stuff happen. Also, most of Gilbert's security is with video cameras all over downtown that are constantly being watched.

**stinkytofu** · September-20-16, 10:13 AM

Maybe you just get used to it over time, but after working downtown for years and for awhile living downtown I don't think it's much of an issue. A simple "I'm sorry, sir" to a homeless person has worked for me 99% of the time. If I have some change on my pocket I'll certainly give it to them. Just part of the deal of living in an urban area.

I was in Seattle a couple years back and was substantially more at unease than I am in Detroit. Some of it is probably familiarity, but there were a TON more than you'll see in Detroit and many more appeared to be super drugged out. Feel uncomfortable enough that at a Friday at 7:00 pm when it started to get dark we opted to go up to Univ. of Washington to find a place to eat.

So, yeah...no big deal to me. Then again, I've seen plenty of weird crap going on right outside that damn liquor store on Woodward [[people passed out on sidewalk, peeing on buildings, yelling at each other, uncomfortably making comments to passing women, etc.) that it'd be nice if that was reigned in a little.

**Honky Tonk** · September-20-16, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by det

I don't want people following me every time I walk to my car and then cussing at me if I don't toss them a quarter.

My suggestion would be to hand them a buck or two, they'd treat you with more respect.

**401don** · September-20-16, 11:00 AM

I've been in downtown Toronto & Chicago this summer and panhandling is probably worse. I definitely agree with the premise that the problem is more the lack of pedestrians in Detroit. Not so much with feeling uneasy, but you're simply going to get hit on every time when you're the only one passing a panhandler. Your odds are a lot better if you're amongst a group of other pedestrians.

**Gistok** · September-20-16, 11:37 AM

When we have the August Theatre Tours for Preservation Detroit, I have to go from the Fillmore to the Detroit Opera House for lunch. The quickest route is through East Grand Circus Park. For me, it was like playing a game of Packman.... you had to take the path of least resistence, and anticipate which pathway a panhandler was coming towards me, and then take evasive action by following a different route thru the park at a faster clip. I've gotten it down to a science now!

**Baselinepunk** · September-20-16, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

My suggestion would be to hand them a buck or two, they'd treat you with more respect.

Ignoring goes a real long way.

And if they say something, so f--king what?!

Don't give a rat's ass what they, or anyone else for that matter, say so long as they keep them hands to themselves.

It's just words -- they don't hurt unless you let it.

Touch me; now we're at a whole different level you don't want to be at on any day.

I never give anything to street folks. I figure there are a bunch of other people out there that can/want to support them. Not me; I need every penny since the Republicans keep taking more and more of my money away every day.

**drjeff** · September-20-16, 12:52 PM

Giving money of any kind to beggars just encourages them to beg and enables their substance abuse. More than once I've purchased food for somebody who claims they are hungry and they refused it, asking for money instead. Fuck that. Give money to the organizations that try to help them. I almost never give money to anyone on the street.

**Chicago48** · September-20-16, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Yeah some of the pan handlers are pretty aggressive. Ignoring them use to work, now they have to curse you out just because your not willing to take the risk to engage them with your money. The 'curse out' only reminds you why you don't!

When I was in mid-town in July I didn't notice Panhandlers, but I wasn't downtown.
We have the same issue in Chicago, but ours are not aggressive. They just look bad. They sit on the sidewalk with their signs.

About the fighting -- Unless the security guards have law enforcement credentials [[I suspect not) they can't break up fights & arrest. They can call the police, but the police have higher priority.

**Neilr** · September-20-16, 01:43 PM

When asked for money by a street person my standard reply is: "Thank you, Sir [[or Ma'am); but not today." No need to engage in conversation, I just keep on walking. I find that the street people downtown and Greektown are generally polite.

I regularly donate to the Capuchin Soup Kitchen, and occasionally to the Warming Center at Sts. Peter & Paul where I feel my money will do more good.

**Scottathew** · September-20-16, 01:43 PM

I've been working downtown for six years and I haven't seen any fights. I get out and about around lunch time a lot too, and I still see nothing.

I have had some aggressive pan-handlers. When asked for money I usually reply, "No thank you, I hope you have a good day", and that really set one of the pan-handlers off, but most reply back nicely and appreciate the response and respect.

Unfortunately some of the pan handlers are going to be very unpredictable due to mental illness.

**canuck** · September-20-16, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

I've been in downtown Toronto & Chicago this summer and panhandling is probably worse. I definitely agree with the premise that the problem is more the lack of pedestrians in Detroit. Not so much with feeling uneasy, but you're simply going to get hit on every time when you're the only one passing a panhandler. Your odds are a lot better if you're amongst a group of other pedestrians.

I was thinking the exact same. The panhandling in Montreal on major intersections not just downtown but near highway accesses is big. I give to the odd squeegee, but I don't encourage sidewalk sleepers who have given up on rolling up their sleeves. They are usually polite, if somewhat insistent at times, but I think the code on the street is that you can't scare the business away because the other panhandlers will take care of you, or the cops will.

**Honky Tonk** · September-20-16, 02:09 PM

"Hey Mistah, You got a quawdah?"

**canuck** · September-20-16, 02:20 PM

My favorite hook is panhandlers with a cardboard sign that reads: "Too ugly for prostitution".

**mwilbert** · September-20-16, 03:24 PM

As numerous other people have said, this is just something that happens in a city with a reasonable number of pedestrians and laws which don't allow you to lock street people up. If Detroit continues to have more street life, people will just have to get used to it.

**Richard** · September-20-16, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

post removed

Let me guess,you would be one of those judges that tell women that they should have kept their legs closed after being raped.

They were venting and not understanding,a tiny bit of advise on how to deal with it would not have killed one.

But I see the answer is,if one moves downtown being beat,harassed etc. is a part of the urban experience and one should except it as the way to live because it is Detroit.

Most cities do not even allow loitering in front of liquor stores for the very reason that was posted,it always leads to trouble.

It is catch 22 with the ratio issues,life is to short for most to deal with it unless it is cleaned up but until more residents choose to live there it will not be cleaned up and remain a justifiable situation.

**det** · September-20-16, 04:14 PM

@baselinepunk It is not even worth my time to address your comment.

And to those that work downtown, this situation is not very noticeable during the daytime because there are usually so many people around. It is more so at night, after 6pm.

Yes, I am not directing this concern toward Gilbert or anyone in particular obviously; I am simply starting a reasonable dialogue over a subject that will need to be addressed over the next few years in Detroit.

I have no problem with people asking for money. I have a problem when they pee on buildings in broad daylight [[literally on woodward buildings), leave empty beer cans and garbage everywhere on the sidewalks, smoke crack/heroine in the alleys [[I have seen this happen), disrespect women who walk by in many different ways [[this is not right), argue with each other until 2-3 in the morning some nights [[which can be heard by residents), throw things in the street, etc.

The situation has not improved, and nothing has been done to address it. I actually saw 3 guys beating up one older guy around midnight near the old Hudson site [[which is dimly lit). I could care less what they say to me, but I am sure most other women are very uncomfortable with how they are treated.

**southen** · September-20-16, 05:52 PM

More Gilbert, more businesses and more residents will change that in time. The downtown revitalization is in its infancy right now for better or worse.

**401don** · September-20-16, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by southen

More Gilbert, more businesses and more residents will change that in time. The downtown revitalization is in its infancy right now for better or worse.

To your point, they don't try hanging out in front of the Athens Liquor store in Greektown because they know they wouldn't get away with it. That stretch of Woodward is still desolate enough that they can.

**southen** · September-20-16, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

To your point, they don't try hanging out in front of the Athens Liquor store in Greektown because they know they wouldn't get away with it. That stretch of Woodward is still desolate enough that they can.

That is pretty much it. Capitol Park still feels a bit iffy at night but I guarantee once all of those residential developments come online that they area will have a completely different feel. Im convinced that Jazz Liquor will be gone once the Shinola Hotel gets close to completion anyway.