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  1. #51

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    I am not sure about other states but in Florida there are no cost services advailable to help the "poor" comply and the fees like the $10 SS card replacement fee is waived.

    If you apply online and have had a state issue ID in the past they give you one pass which gives you another 5 years to gather the information.

    Lots of DMV outlets have been closed here also due to state budget cuts and reduced revenues and the push to move online,you can renew your yearly sticker up to three months in advance online.

    It is like every other industry that prefers to save money by moving online,just like banking,insurance etc.

    Not sure how that translates into a Jim Crow erea redux
    Last edited by Richard; July-17-17 at 02:33 PM.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I am not sure about other states but in Florida there are no cost services advailable to help the "poor" comply and the fees like the $10 SS card replacement fee is waived.

    If you apply online and have had a state issue ID in the past they give you one pass which gives you another 5 years to gather the information.

    Lots of DMV outlets have been closed here also due to state budget cuts and reduced revenues and the push to move online,you can renew your yearly sticker up to three months in advance online.

    It is like every other industry that prefers to save money by moving online,just like banking,insurance etc.

    Not sure how that translates into a Jim Crow erea redux
    Well gee, if that's how they do in Florida, that must also be exactly how it is in the other 49 states too! I also like how you put "poor" in quotation marks, as if poor people aren't really a thing.

    Your "just do it online" justification doesn't apply to photo ID, since I'm pretty sure you can't take your own picture and submit it online to the DMV to put on a license or State ID for you. You have to go in person to get photo ID. Hence the opportunity for a deliberate bottleneck. Shut down DMVs and you make it harder for people to get photo IDs. Shut down DMVs in areas with mostly black people (who vote Democratic), then you've just made it harder for a Democratic constituency to get the thing that they need in order to vote. And indeed that's exactly what happened in Alabama.

    Another tactic was to cut the hours of DMVs, so that they were only open for a few hours in the middle of the day on a few weekdays per week. Imagine the closest DMV to you is 60 miles away. Now imagine it is only open Tues-Thurs from 10am to 2pm. Can you hold down a full-time job and still be able to go get an ID? I won't even get into the issues involving transportation with people who rely on public transportation, home-bound elderly, etc.

    Now let's go a step further and in order to get a state-issued ID, you need to provide a certified copy of your birth certificate. How easy is that? Are those free? Easy to obtain? Maybe, maybe not.

    You might have a point if every state that had strict Voter ID laws also provided free IDs to anyone who needed one and you could do it all online and they would just mail it to your house, but that is pretty much the exact opposite of how it works in reality.

  3. #53

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    Because I like to procrastinate I took the first option of the online renewal without all of the documentation and yes they sent it to me in the mail,I did not have to go in for a picture because if one has ever had a picture ID or drives license they keep that picture on file. They do not throw it away because your ID expired.

    It took me 45 days to file from Florida to Minnesota to get a stamped embossed birth certificate replacement,and it cost $35 but would have been free if I actually went there.

    But I had 5 years to do all of this.

    For everything and reason you come up with many people before already thought and implemented solutions and a simple phone call to the office of what ever party you choose to vote for will provide transportation and help achieving and getting the vote.

    Millions across the country have already been through this,of all races and incomes.

    You just keep looking for stuff that is not there,then trying to justify why it should be there,what is the end game?

  4. #54

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    There has already been a lot of discussion on this thread about Voter ID laws and how they have been used to suppress the vote.

    Post #4 recaps analysis why so many citizens lack valid ID, and how voter ID laws disenfranchise them. Wisconsin was the subject of the study. The numbers are shocking. Here are some of the percentages of people who in 2012 lacked valid ID in Wisconsin:

    Persons aged at least 65: 23%
    African-Americans in Milwaukee county: 53%
    Hispanics in Milwaukee county aged 18-24: 66%
    African-Americans in Milwaukee county aged 18-24: 74%
    Students at Marquette University living in dorms: 98%

    Post #12
    and post #13 discuss how Republicans have whipped up false claims of voter fraud in order to set the stage to pass restrictive voter ID laws for the purpose of targeted voter suppression. And how in moments of rare candor some Republicans have even admitted it.

    Richard, here’s one you may know. Jim Greer, the former Florida Republican Party chairman, told The Palm Beach Post that voter ID laws and cutbacks in early voting are “done for one reason and one reason only” — to suppress Democratic turnout. Consultants, Mr. Greer said, “never came in to see me and tell me we had a fraud issue. It’s all a marketing ploy.”

    You can read the full article:

    Former Florida GOP leaders say voter suppression was reason they pushed new election law
    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/st...BY3k1u4k5XdLP/
    Last edited by bust; July-17-17 at 10:04 PM.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Because I like to procrastinate I took the first option of the online renewal without all of the documentation and yes they sent it to me in the mail,I did not have to go in for a picture because if one has ever had a picture ID or drives license they keep that picture on file. They do not throw it away because your ID expired.
    So when you're 65, they still use the picture of you from when you are 16? No Richard, that's not how that works.

    Direct link to the Michigan SOS office:
    http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7...5226--,00.html

    http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7...327---,00.html

    Michigan law requires motorists to renew their driver's license in person at a Secretary of State office once every eight years
    When renewing your license in person at a Branch office, a new photo will be taken. So everyone MUST physically go into a Michigan SoS office at least once every eight years to renew their license in person and get a new photo taken.

    Just for shits and gigs, I checked what the requirements are to renew a license online in Florida. You can only renew your driver's license online in Florida if your last renewal was done in person. This is identical to how Michigan does it, how Alabama does it, how most states do it. You cannot renew your license on-line twice in a row, you have to go in person for the next renewal.

    So yes Richard, I hate to break it to you, but you will have to go into the DMV the next time your driver's license is due to expire.

    For everything and reason you come up with many people before already thought and implemented solutions
    Yes, there's solutions (like free IDs for poor people) and then there are ways to sabotage those solutions. Example: Wisconsin under Republican Governor Scott Walker.

    http://archive.jsonline.com/news/sta...29400013.html/

    A state Department of Transportation official has told employees not to alert people they can get identification cards for free under a new law requiring people to show photo IDs to vote.

    Lawmakers included the provision for free IDs in the voter ID law to ensure the requirement wasn't considered a poll tax, which would be illegal.
    But Richard, if you want to see the most egregious example of this, look to North Carolina voter ID law, which was struck down by the federal courts after they found it was specifically designed and intended to disenfranchise black people.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/inside-the-republican-creation-of-the-north-carolina-voting-bill-dubbed-the-monster-law/2016/09/01/79162398-6adf-11e6-8225-fbb8a6fc65bc_story.html


    GOP legislators requested data on the use, by race, of several voting practices. With the racial data in hand, Republicans wrote and passed HB 589. Their bill created stringent requirements for voter ID, excluding IDs most commonly used by black voters
    And since you took issue with my Jim Crow comparison.

    Last month, a three-judge federal appeals panel struck down the North Carolina law, calling it “the most restrictive voting law North Carolina has seen since the era of Jim Crow.” Drawing from the emails and other evidence, the 83-page ruling charged that Republican lawmakers had targeted “African Americans with almost surgical precision.”
    You have actual documented email traffic of Republican lawmakers requesting data specifically on black voters so they could tailor this law to impact black people and not white people.

  6. #56

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    The Republican Approach to Voter Fraud: Lie
    They use the fallacy of rampant cheating at the polls to make it harder for people to vote.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/o...-missouri.html

    "The right to vote is central to American democracy. “It’s preservative of all rights,” as the Supreme Court said in its 1886 ruling in Yick Wo v. Hopkins. But chipping away at access to that right has been a central electoral strategy for Republicans."

    "Consider the brutal clarity of Paul Weyrich, a founder of the Heritage Foundation and the American Legislative Exchange Council, which eventually helped write voter suppression legislation that spread like a cancer across the country: “I don’t want everybody to vote,” he said in a 1980 speech to conservative preachers in Dallas. “Our leverage in the elections, quite candidly, goes up as the voting populace goes down.” The Republican Party learned that voter suppression, done ruthlessly and relentlessly, could deliver victory."

    The author provides detailed examples.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by bust View Post
    Wisconsin was the subject of the study. The numbers are shocking. Here are some of the percentages of people who in 2012 lacked valid ID in Wisconsin:

    Persons aged at least 65: 23%
    African-Americans in Milwaukee county: 53%
    Hispanics in Milwaukee county aged 18-24: 66%
    African-Americans in Milwaukee county aged 18-24: 74%
    Students at Marquette University living in dorms: 98%

    You are suggesting that those 74% of 18-24 year old African-Americans and 98% of Marquette University students don't have drivers' licenses or any other valid photo ID's. Really? Marquette is an expensive private college. My experience is that rich kids have drivers' licenses. I may have a bridge to sell you. Milwaukee County is Democratic. It voted 64% Hillary 29% Trump. Milwaukee hasn't elected a Republican Mayor since 1912. How is it then that Democrats can't get their act together to show up on election day or send in an absentee ballot with a photo ID and a gas bill? In Wisconsin, a photo ID is necessary to receive a ballot but a current gas or electric bill (90 days or newer), or a welfare check or document from government is all that is necessary to register on election day.

    In nearby Madison, WI.Students returning to the University of Wisconsin-Madison campus this summer were greeted by therapy dogs for petting. Those lured by the chance to ruffle a dog's ears were then asked to register to vote - a "Pups to the Polls" gimmick that was just one of several similar events being staged in 11 battleground states by the liberal group NextGen America.

    Maybe that's the answer for getting Democrats to the polls.

  8. #58

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    Speaking of North Carolina,Immigration is moving forward with the 20,000,000 voting records from the last 8 years and verifying if fraud was committed.

    2.5 million were verified,3.5 million could not be verified as to who actually placed the vote let alone if they were eligible to vote or not.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by oladub View Post
    You are suggesting that those 74% of 18-24 year old African-Americans and 98% of Marquette University students don't have drivers' licenses or any other valid photo ID's. Really? Marquette is an expensive private college. My experience is that rich kids have drivers' licenses. I may have a bridge to sell you....
    Wouldn't it be better to just read the research I already posted for yourself instead of requiring me to explain it to you? Those data are not merely my suggestions. They are facts, and you can find them all there.

    OK, I'll spoonfeed, this time. But I hope to get some ice cream out if it.

    The key word is valid. In Wisconsin, a valid ID is one among a short list of approved photo IDs with a name and address that exactly matches the voter registration information.

    What follows are just a few reasons a legitimate voter's ID may be considered invalid at a Wisconsin voting station.

    Renters move often. Especially young ones, and poor. Leases usually last a year. People in shares with friends or family move even more often. And of course their voting address changes when they do. How many immediately update their government ID each time? If the address on the ID doesn't match the voter registration record it is insufficient to prove eligibility to vote.

    What percentage of college students with drivers licenses obtained it where they lived during high school? How many do you think updated it when they moved into their college dorm? And into their address for summer. And in September when they moved again? And again? And again? And again? I kept my Michigan drivers license until after I graduated college, and moved about 7 times in between. Luckily I went to school in a state that didn't have a strict voter ID law like Wisconsin's so I could participate in our democracy even so.

    Service men and women change addresses when they enter the military. And it is likely to change again, within. It will change yet again when they end their service. What percentage update their drivers license right away, each time?

    Women marry and change their last name. Getting a new drivers license isn't on most people's to do list immediately after their wedding. Some women divorce and change it again. (Maybe they have a little more incentive.) If the names get out of sync the ID is insufficient to prove eligibility to vote.

    Besides, some people simply don't have a drivers license, a passport, or a state ID. People without a car have no need for a drivers license. People who don't travel internationally don't need the expense and hassle of getting a passport. Is it hard to imagine that except for voting, some people have little other compelling need for a state ID? If they are young, old, or of ailing health, they are especially unlikely to bother. Not everyone leads a similar life as you or I do. Read the research -- apparently you'll be surprised how many.

    Meanwhile licenses can be suspended or revoked for driving infractions. If you believe there exists a driving while black phenomenon it is a logical extension to believe black people therefore have their licenses suspended and revoked more often too. Philando Castile was pulled over while driving at least 49 times in in 13 years in Minnesota before a police officer shot him when it happened again, for the 50th time, for a broken tail light.

    Licenses can also be revoked for failure to pay fines and fees, like the ones you get when you're pulled over all the time for small offenses. Philando Castile's fine for a broken tail light would have been $128 if he paid it on time, plus the repair. In 22 states your license can be suspended even for falling behind paying back student loans. Who are most likely to get into financial trouble? Poor people, of course. If you won't take my word for it, here's some research, here's more, lots more here, and here are some examples how easy it can be for traffic violations to become a financial trap.

    Do you really believe Republicans have been working so hard for decades to pass restrictive voter ID laws because their intent is to fight voter fraud, not because it is a centerpiece of a strategy to suppress likely democratic voters? Alongside ridiculously heavy-handed voter purges, closing polling places where racial minorities live, and political race-based gerrymandering, among others. If so, I'll take that bridge you're selling if you throw in an ice cream cone. I've got a tall stack of monopoly money here to pay for it. See the pretty colors?

    But since I'm the one spoon feeding, I'll go the whole nine yards, and repeat some evidence I previously provided.

    Todd Allbaugh, a former aide to a Republican Wisconsin state legislator, quit his job and left the Republican party because he witnessed Wisconsin Republican legislators celebrating how their restrictive voter ID laws would deter many minorities and college students from voting. He wrote about it on Facebook (check it out -- as of today, it's still there). Here's part of it:

    "I was in the closed Senate Republican Caucus when the final round of multiple Voter ID bills were being discussed. A handful of the GOP Senators were giddy about the ramifications and literally singled out the prospects of suppressing minority and college voters. Think about that for a minute. Elected officials planning and happy to help deny a fellow American’s constitutional right to vote in order to increase their own chances to hang onto power."

    And it worked. One study estimated Wisconsin's voter ID laws deterred between 16,000 and 23,000 legitimate voters from participating in the 2016 elections, in just Wisconsin's two most populous counties alone. That was 11.2% of eligible voters. And look how they skewed: 7% of those who were deterred earned a high income, 21% earned a low income; 8.3% were white, 27.5% were black.

    Voter fraud, uh huh. How many more legitimate voters did the law deter vs. the number of illegitimate voters? And the demographic makeup of the people affected was just by chance.

    Voter impersonation fraud not even a actual problem. Check the research. Do you truly believe there are significant numbers of people willing to risk getting caught committing a felony to impersonate someone just to cast a vote?

    If you do, I hope you've got an extra bridge, and another ice cream cone. Please make it chocolate chip cookie dough.
    Last edited by bust; September-11-18 at 07:29 AM.

  10. #60

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    Your article is 13 years. My links were to current State of Wisconsin voter eligibility information sites. That makes my links more valid than yours. One key point you missed with your obsolete link is that address information on drivers' licenses can be expired as long as it does not precede the previous general election - presently back to November 2016. So your arguments about 98% of students not having drivers's licenses or different addresses or renters moving every year are mostly nonsense. Even if someone forgets photo ID, they can vote provisionally and their vote will be counted if they bring their ID in during the next three days. Provisions are also made for people who have lost their drivers' licenses within 60 days of an election. Members of the military send in absentee ballots. College students can use their college ID accompanied with proof of enrollment. There goes your 98% of college students don't have drivers' licenses and can't vote nonsense.

    You also imagine most people to be stupid. I disagree. If they are smart enough to attend college, go through all the hassles of moving once a year, or even figure out how to register and get documented for welfare benefits, the chances are that they are smart and able enough to vote. Of course, I'm not a Democrat so I don't expect things to be handed to me and have difficulty understanding that mindset.



  11. #61

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    One thing I asked the poll workers during the August election was why when I fill out my little piece of paper and show ID, they ask me to print my name, address, and birthdate in pencil. Yet when I fill out the ballot, it's with a pen ? One poll worker said rather rudely, "Do you think we're going to change your info ?". I replied, "It would seem just as likely as you changing my votes".

    Voting is not a privilege...It's a right ! Once someone is properly registered, the privilege of a driver's license or other ID shouldn't be necessary. They already jumped through that hoop, and the ability of multiple voting is eliminated by the pre-existing register. There is no need for further screening of any type. Further screening is akin to belief in imaginary ghosts.

  12. #62
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    Problems with the NY state primary:

    https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/201...ection-problem

    A wide variety of people, many of them frequent voters, all over New York state said they were told they are not on the voter rolls on election day, prompting widespread frustration and
    allegations of voter suppression
    .

  13. #63

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    So did the girl win in New York because the republican vote was suppressed?

    When democrats win there is no voter suppression but when they lose there is?

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    So did the girl win in New York because the republican vote was suppressed?

    When democrats win there is no voter suppression but when they lose there is?
    Both elections were Primary elections. The problems yesterday suggest Cuomo was trying to suppress the vote for his primary challenger Cynthia Nixon. So it was Democrats cheating other Democrats, same as during Bernie vs. Hillary. I don't know anything about Republican primaries.

  15. #65

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    Democrats get no free pass from me on voter suppression. Particularly not in New York. It's not a specifically democratic problem there, it's an entrenched party machine problem, and both the democrat and republican party machines are to blame.

    Why Voting in New York Is So Horrifically Screwed Up
    Blame a dysfunctional state government, technophobia, and illegal purges.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ing-names.html

  16. #66

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    ^ That happens everywhere,people speak out about individuals ruining democracy,even though we are a republic,but the candidates are chosen for us by the parties when anybody should be able to run and the people should be free to decide on who they are going to vote for.

    The only thing we do not have is armed government forces at the polling stations in order to intimidate voters into choosing the candidate they choose for you.

    Look At then president Obama,who was he? Nobody knew,Chicago put him there and the rest knew the country was in a ditch so they figured they would throw him in and if it went south,what did they have to lose.

    Win or lose he was screwed the day he stepped into office,although he was paid handsomely in the end.

  17. #67

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    Oladub, with regard to Wisconsin, you compared apples with applesauce. The research I cited examined how many people in Wisconsin do not have a drivers license with a name and address that exactly matches their current name and current place of residence, which is a requirement under Wisconsin's voter id law. And more, it examined the demographics of who they are. They overwhelmingly vote democratic. Yes, the research was conducted in 2005, and yes, that was many years ago. But I don't think any of the reasons why so many people don't have a drivers license with a name and address that exactly match their current name and address have changed much since then, do you?

    You accurately pointed out there are still ways people can vote when for one reason or another they fall into that situation. Let's call them extra hoops they must jump through. You didn't argue that doesn't make it significantly harder and therefore significantly less likely they will vote. Because of course it does. It would have been a fool's errand had you tried.

    More importantly, you haven't said you believe the purpose of voter ID laws is to fight a real problem of imposters showing up at polling stations trying to impersonate legally registered voters in order to steal their votes and sway elections. That is the only argument for them; it is the only crime they prevent. The crime is a felony, and it's preposterous to believe it is a problem. Of course there is no shortage of fools so gullible — Trump appeals to them, and you can find them on this forum — but are you?

    It would be refreshing if instead of searching for excuses and coming up with only the weakest of defenses you admitted the real reason why Republicans have made restricting voter access such a priority. It's to suppress democratic votes. Try as they do to hide behind bogus claims of voter fraud, it has long been an open strategy. Many have admitted it themselves, including Wisconsin state legislators celebrating the passage of the specific law we are discussing. Why don't you?
    Last edited by bust; October-22-18 at 12:54 AM.

  18. #68

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    Another good read:

    Voter-Suppression Tactics in the Age of Trump
    The suppression of minority votes is the homegrown corollary of the Administration’s xenophobic rhetoric—an attempt to place a white thumb on the demographic scale.
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...e-age-of-trump

    "The race between the Republican, Brian Kemp, Georgia’s secretary of state, and the Democrat, Stacey Abrams, the former minority leader of the state House of Representatives — who, if she wins, will be the first black female governor in the country — is a virtual tie. But Kemp has invoked the so-called exact-match law to suspend fifty-three thousand voter-registration applications, for infractions as minor as a hyphen missing from a surname. African-Americans make up thirty-two per cent of the state’s population, but they represent nearly seventy per cent of the suspended applications...."

  19. #69

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    bust, I'll stick with my posts 57 and 60. You posted 13 year old information. I responded with up to date voter registration links from the State of Wisconsin. You are welcome to your conspiracy theories but they seem based, in part, on believing people are too stupid to put food in their mouths. However, I'm repeating myself here, "If they are smart enough to attend college, go through all the hassles of moving once a year, or even figure out how to register and get documented for welfare benefits, the chances are that they are smart and able enough to vote." Much of what you are spinning is predicated on that noblesse oblige victimhood premise. What happens when people take umbrage with or tire of being considered stupid, called deplorables, dregs, etc.? They walk away.

  20. #70

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    Oladub, voting is our most basic right as Americans. Yet I myself have been unable to vote because I found it too difficult. New York requires voting occur in person, on voting day, and is strict about granting exceptions. And I recently moved and haven't yet been able to get a new drivers license (long story).

    Voting should be easy. And the false claim of voter fraud, usually combined with appeals to xenophobic fears of illegal immigration, should not be used as a bogey man to push laws whose real intent is to disenfranchise citizens, so often black and brown ones. Who thinks whom is stupid?

    You still didn't say you think the pretense for these laws is valid. No, because hopefully you're too smart for that. And because if you do it will be easy to present facts that defeat your argument. And when presented with the evidence almost everyone is smart enough to realize that.

    How the Case for Voter Fraud Was Tested — and Utterly Failed
    From a new Supreme Court ruling to a census question about citizenship, the campaign against illegal registration is thriving. But when the top proponent was challenged in a Kansas courtroom to prove that such fraud is rampant, the claims went up in smoke.
    https://www.propublica.org/article/k...d-kansas-trial
    Last edited by bust; October-22-18 at 01:36 AM.

  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by bust View Post
    Oladub, voting is our most basic right as Americans. Yet I myself have been unable to vote because I found it too difficult. New York requires voting occur in person, on voting day, and is strict about granting exceptions. And I recently moved and haven't yet been able to get a new drivers license (long story).

    Voting should be easy. And the false claim of voter fraud, usually combined with appeals to xenophobic fears of illegal immigration, should not be used as a bogey man to push laws whose real intent is to disenfranchise citizens, so often black and brown ones. Who thinks whom is stupid?

    You still didn't say you think the pretense for these laws is valid. No, because hopefully you're too smart for that. And because if you do it will be easy to present facts that defeat your argument. And when presented with the evidence almost everyone is smart enough to realize that.

    How the Case for Voter Fraud Was Tested — and Utterly Failed
    From a new Supreme Court ruling to a census question about citizenship, the campaign against illegal registration is thriving. But when the top proponent was challenged in a Kansas courtroom to prove that such fraud is rampant, the claims went up in smoke.
    https://www.propublica.org/article/k...d-kansas-trial

    Why did I not expect as much? You can't get yourself together, so let's change the laws just for you. Interesting thought process.

  22. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by bust View Post
    Oladub, voting is our most basic right as Americans. Yet I myself have been unable to vote because I found it too difficult. New York requires voting occur in person, on voting day, and is strict about granting exceptions. And I recently moved and haven't yet been able to get a new drivers license (long story).
    New York votes Democratic and you still have problems? I thought your rant was about how bad Republicans are. I'm guessing that New York also allows for absentee ballots. Where I live in Wisconsin, I can vote at the library weeks ahead of time. I disagree with the practice. The logical extension would be able to vote for the party of one's choice for years ahead of time. That would make it even easier for those that savor easy. However, if some last minute information comes to light or your candidate dies a week before the election, it seems a bad idea to vote early. Also, voters could be potentially subject to more intimidation if voters could be pressured into voting at other venues than regulated precincts. I prefer to vote on election day or submit an absentee ballot as I suspect New York allows. I hope you can get your act together to vote. Drivers' licenses are probably not the only identity allowed wherever you moved to. Service members stationed overseas vote. I suspect your problem is less difficult. Note: I didn't mention immigration. Legal immigrants can vote when they become citizens. Illegal non-citizens should be deported.
    Last edited by oladub; October-22-18 at 10:02 AM.

  23. #73

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    Oladub, I voted. I did so even though it is impossible for me to get a drivers license that exactly matches my new address until after the election. Fortunately my state isn't one of the ones that recently changed the laws to require one in order to cast a ballot. And I did so even though I had to update my registration and request an absentee ballot long in advance.

    It was particularly gratifying to vote for highly qualified women for Governor and Senate. To vote for Proposal 2, to take redistricting out of the partisan hands of politicians. And to vote for Proposal 3, to make it easier for Michigan citizens to participate in our democracy.

    Honky Tonk, the comment you deposited here has the excremental quality of a tweet by the child-in-chief you elected president. A diversion that contributes nothing constructive to the conversation. You continue to do that with wearisome frequency. Have you heard of the BRAT diet?
    Last edited by bust; October-22-18 at 12:15 PM.

  24. #74

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    ^^^^ bust,

    I wouldn't worry about Honky Tonk's regularity. He drops excrement in frequent increments.

  25. #75

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    ^^^^^ and you are posting that to somebody that refers to the president of the United States as the child in chief?

    I am guessing the peas in a pod reference would go over your head.

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