Cracks in the armor, too little too late

[ccbatson]

Low and behold, Obama has a new con in the works...drop [[rather, pretend to drop) the "public option" from the health care reform bill.

Problem is, they have shown way too much of their hand recently, and we have seen too much of their deceptive tactics. Is this the beginning of the end for the socialists? The polls seem to indicate it, and we all should count our blessings if it is.

From alleging set up protests from the right, to transparently doing exactly what they claim the conservatives are doing...BTW, anyone else see the fake Doctor/Obama delegate at the sham town hall set up by the congress person caught on tape answering a cell call in the middle of a similar meeting the day before while a constituent was talking to her? Too perfect to be believed...it could not have been better if she came out and admitted that she was lying and deceiving from the get go.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "BTW, anyone else see the fake Doctor/Obama delegate at the sham town hall set up by the congress person caught on tape answering a cell call in the middle of a similar meeting the day before while a constituent was talking to her?"

Could you be any more vague? Who the what person how?

[ccbatson]

Sorry...you must have missed this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2316804/posts

To invoke Emeril Lagasse...."BAM!!!"

[Stosh]

Low and behold, Obama has a new con in the works...drop [[rather, pretend to drop) the "public option" from the health care reform bill.

Problem is, they have shown way too much of their hand recently, and we have seen too much of their deceptive tactics. Is this the beginning of the end for the socialists? The polls seem to indicate it, and we all should count our blessings if it is.

From alleging set up protests from the right, to transparently doing exactly what they claim the conservatives are doing...BTW, anyone else see the fake Doctor/Obama delegate at the sham town hall set up by the congress person caught on tape answering a cell call in the middle of a similar meeting the day before while a constituent was talking to her? Too perfect to be believed...it could not have been better if she came out and admitted that she was lying and deceiving from the get go.

There can be only one outcome in all this. Either we get health care reform, or no health care at all, for most. Period. It will come to the point of:

A) Employers stopping coverage of workers because of cost, or
B) Individuals not paying for health insurance because they can't afford it. or
C) Deductable increases to the point of making health care worthless..

Now there's those that will say, just go to the emergency room, they have to cover you, right? Wrong. Sooner or later there's got to be a tipping point of coverage.

And those that say, I will pay the bill if I get sick, are just plain delusional, and probably in need of mental health care immediately.
Average heart attack care cost in this country is $54,400 per person in 2007.
Average coleorectal [[example cancer) care cost is between $35,000 and $80,000 for direct medical care.

Also, the whole thing of government vs. insurers is laughable. Why would I place my health care decision in the hands of an insurer? They are more likely that not to deny coverage, due to the profit factor.

[ccbatson]

Not a bad point Stosh, but there is a third option...Privatize health care, get government out by way of phasing out the existing entitlements. Likely painful on some levels, but by far the least difficult, and best long term solution.

Mind you, failed socialised health care will force reform one way or another...witness reversals in policy starting to surface in France, Germany, the UK, and Canada. Also look at India and their quasi black free market system that works very well.

[Stosh]

Not a bad point Stosh, but there is a third option...Privatize health care, get government out by way of phasing out the existing entitlements. Likely painful on some levels, but by far the least difficult, and best long term solution.

Mind you, failed socialised health care will force reform one way or another...witness reversals in policy starting to surface in France, Germany, the UK, and Canada. Also look at India and their quasi black free market system that works very well.

Ok, I'll bite. Your vision of privatized health care would work... how? Elderly poor cut off of Medicare? Who would pay?

[gibran]

The most telling posters from the right at opposition teabagger meetings... " I got mine you get yours" or " I paid for mine you pay for yours" signs by the compassionate right,,,,

and the very reason we are still suffering from the days of Reagan...self centered greed and lack of compassion for the fellow person... In psychology the focus is on self when in fact it should be on how self relates to others as well [[self being the first step in evolution higher level psychological thinking).. that is the problem at the core of this debate for a "few". Not all.

By focusing on the individual only-[[individualism falls short of being part of a larger society) it stops the attainment of mutuality and community and it can strengthen unjust institutions [[you can fill those in here-----) [[Fox, Prilleltensky,& Austin, 2009) Institutional allegiances disproportionately hurt members of those who are powerless and marginalized by facilitating inequality [[ poor vs rich). The self-focused mindset goes hand in hand with those who rally for corporate extremes in capitalism and thus a relatively small group of people holding the power...the problem is that they also hold the images of media and patriotism too...they warp themselves around false flags and symbols while their fellow countrymen suffer with poverty and now infusing the health care debate...they [[big business and Madison ave) prey on people who listen to rush for their education and think Glen Beck and Goldberg have it down ...Individualistic worldviews hinders mutuality, connectiveness and a real sense of community [[which is what patriotism is about). It blinds people of the consequences of their lifestyles and how it effects others who havn'e "pulled their-selves up by the boot straps" and does a great job of demonizing their oppressed and voices that speak out in opposition.These "online fighters" claim higher moral ground when in reality ...under further insight are less than moral. Instead of fighting for health-care reform that is needed we are fighting any level of reform as socialist ...forgetting the reality of people suffering. But , it is those who are fighting for reform that have their facts wrong...it is only {pick a number} that don't have e insurance and "illegal aliens"... forgetting that is code speak for others and the poor working class ...

How patriotic is it that we let the Lakota Sioux live in 87% unemployment and in inadequate living conditions..or the absurdity of blaming the victims for their lack of ability. The false consciousness of blaming people for their own conditions when it is in reality the system that is broke and their personal barriers is brushed off by saying well "I had no help" you should be able to make it too..

If you want a true Democracy you have to extend it equally to all and when there are barriers you work to fix it for your community..maybe then you can move past the gated mentality... people maintain power over others for a reason and the sad thing is that they have "others" fighting their battles in a variety of ways...

Privatization hasn't work that well in many areas where morality and compassion are at the crux of issues ..just look back at the greed of Healthsouth et al and other for profit hosiptal and psych. systems and where they are today..or how BC BS started out providng great coverage until they became for profit.. Sure I like my care..accept for the fact that I get denied, have high co-pays, it regulates my care and limits rehabilitation for families that need it..gee I really love what I got...but it was better than when I was a small business owner paying $850 per month just for my coverage... not to mention the cost for my family...

"I got mine so screw you guys that don't have yours...I don't even want to fight for you..." "I don't want the government dictating healthcare...so I would rather go without...until I get sick and show up at the 'ER"

[Sstashmoo]

The reality is we are already paying for socialized medicine. These folks with their "I got mine you get yours signs" are too stupid to realize that. When a person with no insurance needs to see a doctor, they go to the emergency room. What happens next is the bill does not get paid, what happens next is the Doctors and Hospitals expense this out and offset the amount of tax owed for their period, what happens next is, the tax they should be paying is not being paid creates a further liability on those that pay taxes weekly. You can run, but you can't hide.

[Stosh]

The reality is we are already paying for socialized medicine. These folks with their "I got mine you get yours signs" are too stupid to realize that. When a person with no insurance needs to see a doctor, they go to the emergency room. What happens next is the bill does not get paid, what happens next is the Doctors and Hospitals expense this out and offset the amount of tax owed for their period, what happens next is, the tax they should be paying is not being paid creates a further liability on those that pay taxes weekly. You can run, but you can't hide.

The next step in this will be the denial of care at certain hospitals. Just look at Flint and the vote up there with the Hurley Hospital. Teabaggers defeated that millage.

Look at some of the comments on this message board:
http://www.mlive.com/opinion/flint/i...al_center.html

[Bobl]

cc quote: "... Also look at India and their quasi black free market system that works very well..."

[gnome]

I'm confused, are we talking health care reform or health insurance reform.

Seems to me, of all the folks that are doing pretty well, its those Doctors who could stand to take a haircut. Toss in a few overpriced health insurance execs and the rest of us are getting screwed with no promise of a happy ending.

Seriously, anyone ever hear of a Doctor going bankrupt?

If we need to reform health care, then let's reform health care. Make a Medical Degree free for those who are qualified. Practice for X years and you don't have to pay it off. Bail early to a Speciality and you're on the hook for the whole thing plus a 50% surcharge.

Anyone ever ask their Doctor what something costs? Like you'd do with a mechanic? I do. I've never recieved an accurate estimate. Never. Even a regular office visit, doctors don't know.

They can tell you their tee times, which number wife they're working on, who's the president of the AMA and the stock price of Pharma, but ask your doc what it costs to look at your colon. Ask her how much a mamogram will set you back.

Let me know your findings.

[ccbatson]

Here is how to do it:

1. Freeze current Medicare recipients as they are [[plus inflation).
2. For those not yet 65, break it into 10 year blocks;
-55-65: option of taking traditional Medicare versus paying back all contributions tax free plus interest to be allocated to a private program [[HSA's being the wisest course). All payments to healthcare are tax free and deductible.
-45-55: option of payback and private program as for 55-65, versus, they may decide to leave the contributions already made in the Medicare pool and receive a 40% version of Medicare benefits at retirement [[currently it is 80% for full Medicare). The remaining 40% + 20% can be purchased as secondary to medicare [[again as it is now, but for a bigger piece of the pie). Again, all health care costs are 100 percent deductible.
-Under 45: Mandatory refunds of contributions as above, no option of maintaining Medicare at retirement.
- Abolish any new enrolments and withholdings for Medicare.
- Medicaid is available for poverty level AND disabled or elderly, not available for able bodied young people. Privatized managed medicaid only, no "traditional medicaid".

Phase out includes the dissolution of CMS over time...no more administrative costs, rules and regulations beyond what the law should [[and does) warrant for just contractual relations between providers and patients, and/or insurance providers and customers.

Employer contribution are not mandatory. However, large corporate tax deductions are offered if employers who choose to provide the benefit.

Organized labor is not allowed, by law, to require employer payment for health care. Existing contracts that stipulate this will be allowed to run their course [[usually yearly). Market forces will address the re allocation of the funds freed up from the formerly paid for benefits...ie allowing for more competitive wage bidding to attract better and market incentivised at will laborers.

[ccbatson]

Lots of ignorance there Gnome..

Yes, Physicians go bankrupt, at a rate higher than other professionals with the amount of training because of very high overhead including liability insurance, and school loans.

Yes, Physicians very often, if not always, have a fee schedule established for self paying patients.

Nothing, including a Medical Degree, is ever truly free. Someone is paying, and that someone in a "free" or socialised system is the taxpayer. Furthermore, as with all things socialised, the curves of quality [[of medical education per time and cost per time) will follow the X pattern with quality declining and costs rising.

[gnome]

fine, tell me the names of three doctors you know who have filed bankrupcy and gone out of business.

oh, yeah, since you know so many who have gone belly up, what are they doing now.

[gnome]

If the docs are hurting so bad, what do they do after the office closes, the Benz is in hock, the Farmington Hills estate, Grand Cayman time share and Florida condo ... all that is gone: poof.

Do they all get jobs at 7-11? Rite-Aid? The Health Department?

[gnome]

CC, hey man, it's getting late, so I'm heading to catch a couple winks, but you go on and try to think of some brethren who hit the bricks. I'd wait around, but the sound of crickets is making me sleepy.

Keep in mind I will call the Doctors to confirm what you say is true. If you don't want to post their names here, you can PM me.

What's that? "chirp chirp chirp" oh, I see.

[rb336]

Best thing we could do for health care in this country is to set it up so assholes who get into it with the idea of getting wealthy are weeded out, leaving those who actually believe such things as empathy and actually helping people get better are more important than the almighty dollar

[Lorax]

Here's a little truth about the health care situation:

Every wealthy country other than the United States guarantees essential care to all its citizens. There are, however, wide variations in the specifics, with three main approaches taken.

In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.

Like every system, the National Health Service has problems, but over all it appears to provide quite good care while spending only about 40 percent as much per person as we do.

By the way, our own Veterans Health Administration, which is run somewhat like the British health service, also manages to combine quality care with low costs.

The second route to universal coverage leaves the actual delivery of health care in private hands, but the government pays most of the bills. That’s how Canada and, in a more complex fashion, France do it. It’s also a system familiar to most Americans, since even those of us not yet on Medicare have parents and relatives who are.

Again, you hear a lot of horror stories about such systems, most of them false. French health care is excellent. Canadians with chronic conditions are more satisfied with their system than their U.S. counterparts. And Medicare is highly popular, as evidenced by the tendency of town-hall protesters to demand that the government keep its hands off the program.

Finally, the third route to universal coverage relies on private insurance companies, using a combination of regulation and subsidies to ensure that everyone is covered. Switzerland offers the clearest example: everyone is required to buy insurance, insurers can’t discriminate based on medical history or pre-existing conditions, and lower-income citizens get government help in paying for their policies.

In this country, the Massachusetts health reform more or less follows the Swiss model; costs are running higher than expected, but the reform has greatly reduced the number of uninsured. And the most common form of health insurance in America, employment-based coverage, actually has some “Swiss” aspects: to avoid making benefits taxable, employers have to follow rules that effectively rule out discrimination based on medical history and subsidize care for lower-wage workers.

So where does Obama's plan fit into all this? Basically, it’s a plan to Swissify America, using regulation and subsidies to ensure universal coverage.

If we were starting from scratch we probably wouldn’t have chosen this route.

True “socialized medicine” would undoubtedly cost less, and a straightforward extension of Medicare-type coverage to all Americans would probably be cheaper than a Swiss-style system.

That’s why I and others believe that a true public option competing with private insurers is extremely important: otherwise, rising costs could all too easily undermine the whole effort.

But a Swiss-style system of universal coverage would be a vast improvement on what we have now. And we already know that such systems work.

So we can do this. At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies.

[Stosh]

Here is how to do it:

1. Freeze current Medicare recipients as they are [[plus inflation).
2. For those not yet 65, break it into 10 year blocks;
-55-65: option of taking traditional Medicare versus paying back all contributions tax free plus interest to be allocated to a private program [[HSA's being the wisest course). All payments to healthcare are tax free and deductible.
-45-55: option of payback and private program as for 55-65, versus, they may decide to leave the contributions already made in the Medicare pool and receive a 40% version of Medicare benefits at retirement [[currently it is 80% for full Medicare). The remaining 40% + 20% can be purchased as secondary to medicare [[again as it is now, but for a bigger piece of the pie). Again, all health care costs are 100 percent deductible.
-Under 45: Mandatory refunds of contributions as above, no option of maintaining Medicare at retirement.
- Abolish any new enrolments and withholdings for Medicare.
- Medicaid is available for poverty level AND disabled or elderly, not available for able bodied young people. Privatized managed medicaid only, no "traditional medicaid".

Phase out includes the dissolution of CMS over time...no more administrative costs, rules and regulations beyond what the law should [[and does) warrant for just contractual relations between providers and patients, and/or insurance providers and customers.

Employer contribution are not mandatory. However, large corporate tax deductions are offered if employers who choose to provide the benefit.

Organized labor is not allowed, by law, to require employer payment for health care. Existing contracts that stipulate this will be allowed to run their course [[usually yearly). Market forces will address the re allocation of the funds freed up from the formerly paid for benefits...ie allowing for more competitive wage bidding to attract better and market incentivised at will laborers.

Sheesh. Draconian. This is a prescription for disaster.

All I see above are refunds, takeaways, and private insurer bonanzas. The refunds mentioned would further cripple the government, which seems to be your aim.

Here's a better solution. Free market legitimate non profit co-ops, owned and operated by the members. Pooling resources, limiting compensation for both doctors and corporation employees. Expanding HSA coverage to everyone, not just a few.

You should not castigate the unions for their efforts either. It's through collective bargaining that most of your patients [[IF you are a doctor and local) get their healthcare to begin with. This includes the non-union employees as well. If it were left up to the corporations, health care would be drastically cut. Which would mean a big chunk of your business would dissapear. Let's be honest. If the vast majority of people were forced to pay for rehabilitative services, they wouldn't use them.


You better pray to R__d that the cash cow doesn't dry up.

[rb336]

The big difference between our system and Canada's?

When something isn't working right, the govt actually listens to the people and fixes it, whereas here, no one listens to anyone and some view calling out the problems with our 19th out of 19 industrialized health care system as treasonous. most of those are, however, those who are sucking the money out of the system as fast as they can or are too stupid to recognize when they are getting duped

[vetalalumni]

Anyone ever ask their Doctor what something costs? Like you'd do with a mechanic? I do. I've never recieved an accurate estimate. Never. Even a regular office visit, doctors don't know.

Obfuscating information is a tried and true method with regard to sheople. Across industries, it enhances trade dynamics. Highlighting certain information, and shading [[omitting, forgetting to mention, minimizing) other information, greases wheels.

[ccbatson]

Refunds and tax credits go to the proper place, the taxpayer. They may choose to SPEND THEIR MONEY with whomever they choose.

This isn't a plan designed to break the government, but to shrink it down to appropriate size. If they are not in the business of healthcare, and the money taken for medicare is limited to that purpose, then they can't be financially harmed by the process of refunding allocated funds that they will no longer be in control of [[or in need of). Unless, that is, they are raiding said funds for other things.

[ccbatson]

If the Physician doesn't know his or her own fee schedule. or will not disclose it to potential customers, I doubt they are going to prosper.

[Lorax]

Sheesh. Draconian. This is a prescription for disaster.

All I see above are refunds, takeaways, and private insurer bonanzas. The refunds mentioned would further cripple the government, which seems to be your aim.

Here's a better solution. Free market legitimate non profit co-ops, owned and operated by the members. Pooling resources, limiting compensation for both doctors and corporation employees. Expanding HSA coverage to everyone, not just a few.

You should not castigate the unions for their efforts either. It's through collective bargaining that most of your patients [[IF you are a doctor and local) get their healthcare to begin with. This includes the non-union employees as well. If it were left up to the corporations, health care would be drastically cut. Which would mean a big chunk of your business would dissapear. Let's be honest. If the vast majority of people were forced to pay for rehabilitative services, they wouldn't use them.


You better pray to R__d that the cash cow doesn't dry up.

Co ops are nothing more than another way for private enterprise to swoop in and take over. There is no choice here, as any co ops will need to allow private insurers in to administer parts of the program, since they'll be starting from scratch.

The initial fees to join will be low, but just like Verizon or any new start up, hell, include Blue Cross, a not-for-profit co op itself in this- what starts out as competition, ends up in a couple of years being the most expensive option on the block. Just look at COBRA.

Problem is, co ops cost money to join, and premiums to pay. People are broke. 50 million uninsured are not in any position to pay even 100 bucks to join what promises to be a badly run, quasi public/private system that falls short of doing anything more than layering bureaucracy, when we could easily extend Medicare to all Americans in a system that works well. We have Medicare as a model, and should use it to extend to everyone.

Until I get my Medicare for All card in the mail, that allows me to show up at my doctor or hospital, show my card, and 100% of all medical care, prescriptions, etc are covered, cradle to grave, then we will never have the quality of care available to all, as those in Europe do.

You've only given big insurers access to a future 50 million uninsured people they can rake over the coals by denying health coverage for pre-existing conditions, dropping claims, etc. In other words, back to business as usual.

Without a single payer, or the very least, a public option, there will be no real reform. Period.

[Stosh]

Co ops are nothing more than another way for private enterprise to swoop in and take over. There is no choice here, as any co ops will need to allow private insurers in to administer parts of the program, since they'll be starting from scratch.

The initial fees to join will be low, but just like Verizon or any new start up, hell, include Blue Cross, a not-for-profit co op itself in this- what starts out as competition, ends up in a couple of years being the most expensive option on the block. Just look at COBRA.

Problem is, co ops cost money to join, and premiums to pay. People are broke. 50 million uninsured are not in any position to pay even 100 bucks to join what promises to be a badly run, quasi public/private system that falls short of doing anything more than layering bureaucracy, when we could easily extend Medicare to all Americans in a system that works well. We have Medicare as a model, and should use it to extend to everyone.

Until I get my Medicare for All card in the mail, that allows me to show up at my doctor or hospital, show my card, and 100% of all medical care, prescriptions, etc are covered, cradle to grave, then we will never have the quality of care available to all, as those in Europe do.

You've only given big insurers access to a future 50 million uninsured people they can rake over the coals by denying health coverage for pre-existing conditions, dropping claims, etc. In other words, back to business as usual.

Without a single payer, or the very least, a public option, there will be no real reform. Period.

BCBS [[with an emphasis on the BS portion) is non-profit. But I've never been asked to vote on the board of directors as a member. I think that it's important to have a voice in operations, co-op wise. Otherwise it's a top-down thing.

And if you read the bill proposed, there are provisions for denying coverage for pre-existing conditions.
Edit: A quote from the bill itself:

Subtitle B—Standards Guaran

teeing Access to Affordable Coverage

18

SEC. 111. PROHIBITING PRE-EXISTING CONDITION EXCLUSIONS.

20

A qualified health benefits plan may not impose any

21

pre-existing condition exclusion [[as defined in section

22

2701[[b)[[1)[[A) of the Public Health Service Act) or other23

wise impose any limit or condition on the coverage under

24

the plan with respect to an individual or dependent based

25

on any health status-related factors [[as defined in section

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2791[[d)[[9) of the Public Health Service Act) in relation

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to the individual or dependent.

An all or nothing approach is not helpful. Single Payer won't pass this Congress. And the funding to make it happen isn't there. I'm in favor of at least getting in the ball park with this bill. And working from there.