Hart Plaza Future

[1953]

A warehouse district with a newspaper stand sounds pretty good to me. Last time I checked, the warehouse district in New York City was doing ok. And got knows some in this town could stand to read more.

1953

[EastsideAl]

They need to start with simple maintenance. I've worked with the jazz festival in the past, and the things they have found when they showed up for setup, and the most basic cooperation they have not received from the city in opening up and cleaning facilities, is almost enough to make one wonder if there isn't some sort of anti-Hart Plaza, anti-event thing going on inside city government.

Just basic cleaning up, patching of concrete, light bulb replacement, simple bathroom plumbing work, and other small inexpensive things would go a long ways towards making it a better, more usable, and less embarrassing place. Perhaps raising of some private money, as is regularly done in other cities, could be of some use here.

As for the "location" problem, there's really nothing that can be done to "fix" that. Unless you want to rebuild the part of downtown that Hart Plaza and the rest of the Civic Center replaced. Anyway, waterfront parks in Chicago or Washington, or on the west side of Manhattan, or on the point in Pittsburgh aren't "on the way" to anywhere, but are destinations in and of themselves. And these parks are hardly underutilized. Hart Plaza needs to be better integrated with the Riverwalk and other waterfront destinations, have a few internal attractions [[food trucks a good idea), and made more inviting from the Jefferson side [[and maintained reasonably well) in order to garner more regular use. In other words, it needs to be a better destination.

[downtownguy]

...And got knows some in this town could stand to read more.

1953

Not to mention spell or proofread better.

[Jason]

I think what Hart Plaza needs is:

1. Jefferson needs to be redone so that it is easier to cross. In the 375 removal plans MDOT also showed potential changes to Jefferson, so they're aware of the problem and would like to do something about it.

I wouldn't mind seeing ALL left turns at Griswold and Woodward removed, creating a continuous median at Griswold and Woodward with very safe and straightforward pedestrian crossing. Cars coming from the Lodge already have great access to downtown from Larned. I think it would also be good for one lane of the service drive west of Griswold to be removed and replaced with plantings. And the possibility of a footbridge at Shelby could be looked into.

2. Basic maintenance for Hart Plaza.

3. A common comment is that Hart Plaza needs more destinations to attract activity, since it's along the edge of downtown rather than in the thick of it. This was already considered in the original design with the underground retail spaces. However with the state of downtown in the 70s businesses didn't survive and the city seemingly gave up on trying to fill them.

I think the underground commercial spaces should be brought back to life and ideally connected with a new development at the Ford Auditorium site, possibly a modest urban shopping mall. You can't get any more integrated than literally running through the park. I don't know exactly what is where but almost the entire park is actually the roof of an underground [[riverwalk level) building [[ https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...g?v=1463189097 ), and there has to be some potential in that.

4. General attention to detail while improving what is already there. Apparently Noguchi didn't want there to be any lighting. Which isn't very realistic but you can see why, the park is littered with lighting poles, utility boxes, security camera poles. Remove and simplify as much of that as possible. The same goes for all of the random plaques and monuments. Figure out a better solution for all of the vents and pipes and all of the other junk all over. The terrible sign, the concrete security planters.

I think the original design is mostly fine but 40 years of the city being incompetent has had an effect on it.

[southen]

An urban shopping mall and underground retail would be awful for that site. Not due to it's location, although any underground retail in Detroit is probably a mistake, but because that area should be park land. Detroit has an opportunity to create a modern, inviting and useful park when/if they redevelop Hart Plaza. That should be the focus.

If anything that underground areas should be connected to the existing underground parking facility to expand the parking as demand continues to rise. Retailers are struggling for walk up business right now where they can actually be seen, burying them at Hart Plaza is a recipe for empty stores.

[G-DDT]

I'm going to echo a lot here. I like the Noguchi fountain. I grew up with it being a symbol I've known, and I always liked seeing it there at the Jazzfest. I like the RenCen, I used to work at the RenCen, but since GM took it over, I feel too inhibited to just waltz in there and browse around.

I like the monolithic post modern 70's nature of Hart Plaza [[Pyramid stage, the Bowl, etc.); I just expect some Mummenschanz lookin' dude to pop out and hit me up for change so he can ride a rocket back to his home world of disco Muppet droids [[or some kind of 70's junk).

It does need maintenance badly with the uneven ground and crumbling areas. It needs a better bathroom situation, and without lookin' too over-pronounced with signage, I'd like to see a few areas or passages that make it better accessible for the differently abled.

A few attractions like a newsstand or something like the awesome carousel at Chene Park would be cool. Speaking of, even some way to connect Hart Plaza all the way over to Chene Park would be decent.

[royce]

Gistok won't want to hear this because he has heard me make this suggestion a thousand times, but an amphitheater on Hart Plaza that serves as a replacement for the Chene Park amphitheater would do wonders to improve Hart Plaza. The amphitheater would go where Ford Auditorium was located and would replace a portion of the pylon stage area as well. The current below-surface amphitheater and the underground areas would be filled in, replaced with grass on top. The fountain and all other monuments would remain.

In addition, I like most of the frontage on Jefferson from Cobo to Bates, especially the area where the Stargate [[Workers monument) is located. That could be the area where you could put the food trucks. Also, maybe narrow the entrance way from Woodward with grass and, for God's sake, widen the sidewalk near Mariner's church by removing that wall and walkway behind it and replacing that area with grass. I know it's not a part of Hart Plaza but in also needs a make-over.

BTW, I disagree with those who say Hart Plaza is a "concrete jungle." If you look at the entirety of Hart Plaza you will see a great deal of it has grassy areas. I don't know what the ratio of concrete to grassy areas is, but I know it's not a 80-20 or 70-30 ratio. Maybe one of you math guys can give an accurate ratio and report your findings. That's my two cents.

[Gistok]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

Hehehe.... don't they already use the site of the former Free Press Plant on the west riverfront for concerts?

Royce.... I wonder what a canopy would do to the riverfront views....

[G-DDT]

Gistok won't want to hear this because he has heard me make this suggestion a thousand times, but an amphitheater on Hart Plaza that serves as a replacement for the Chene Park amphitheater would do wonders to improve Hart Plaza. The amphitheater would go where Ford Auditorium was located and would replace a portion of the pylon stage area as well. The current below-surface amphitheater and the underground areas would be filled in, replaced with grass on top. The fountain and all other monuments would remain.

In addition, I like most of the frontage on Jefferson from Cobo to Bates, especially the area where the Stargate [[Workers monument) is located. That could be the area where you could put the food trucks. Also, maybe narrow the entrance way from Woodward with grass and, for God's sake, widen the sidewalk near Mariner's church by removing that wall and walkway behind it and replacing that area with grass. I know it's not a part of Hart Plaza but in also needs a make-over.

BTW, I disagree with those who say Hart Plaza is a "concrete jungle." If you look at the entirety of Hart Plaza you will see a great deal of it has grassy areas. I don't know what the ratio of concrete to grassy areas is, but I know it's not a 80-20 or 70-30 ratio. Maybe one of you math guys can give an accurate ratio and report your findings. That's my two cents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGlN6mluGA

[royce]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

Hehehe.... don't they already use the site of the former Free Press Plant on the west riverfront for concerts?

Royce.... I wonder what a canopy would do to the riverfront views....

Well, Gistok, when Ford Auditorium was there you couldn't see the waterfront from there. This new amphitheater would go in its exact location and a little to the west so no waterfront view would really be taken away.

[Wesley Mouch]

The problem with Hart Plaza has always been it's location. There is no reason for most people to naturally pass through Hart Plaza unless the Plaza itself is the destination. I am sure a few people may pass through it on the way to the Riverwalk, but I am sure many others avoid it and use other routes to the river because of the numerous panhandlers and its overall isolationist and disrepair feel.

Adding to the problem it is surrounded by Cobo, midrises along Jefferson Ave with no groundfloor retail, and the customs booth for the Tunnel, none of which are generators of daily foot traffic. Jane Jacobs talks about these types of parks, and why they "feel scarry" and are unattractive.

That being said, it does provide nice views of the river and the Skyline, and really is a good location for events [[ignoring the state of disrepair it is in). For that reason, the best and most cost effective use of the place is simply a festival site.

I am going to upset some people in saying this, but I wish they would just erect some fencing or barriers around it, put the park under the COBO management board, and use a portion of the entry fees from the events in the park to pay for its upkeep. [[Yes, I know most festivals currently held there do not charge admission). The city has no money to pay for it, and the bills have to be paid for somehow.

For those who need Riverfront access from downtown, Bates street still serves the connectivity purpose. But just make Hart Plaza an official festival site, charge admission to use it, and pay for the maintenance that way. You may even get the occasional Cobo Hall event that would use it too.

Jane Jacobs had it right. Parks are usually challenging spaces where you wouldn't want your kids to go by themselves -- yet we seem to always want to see parks as some glorious font of wonder. They are not.

Location is the real problem with Hart, however. Great place to look at river. Great place for larger gatherings -- but almost no reason to go otherwise.

At the risk of being futher stigmatized as a profit-seeking pig, it needs commerce. Good restaurants and shops. But unfortunately commerce on city property in Detroit is considered an opportunity for rent-seeking by the City, or to give to friends, family, or patrons as gifts. Has there ever been a City use of property that hasn't been such?

[Lowell]

BTW, I disagree with those who say Hart Plaza is a "concrete jungle." If you look at the entirety of Hart Plaza you will see a great deal of it has grassy areas. I don't know what the ratio of concrete to grassy areas is, but I know it's not a 80-20 or 70-30 ratio. Maybe one of you math guys can give an accurate ratio and report your findings. That's my two cents.

Echo that. There are plenty shady grassy nooks to where one can retreat. i particularly like the grassy banks overlooking the river. Adding more to main festival areas would result in them being trampled then turned into mud baths when it rains.

[DeLemur]

Yup maintenance. Yup incorporation into the riverfront. Yup more concerts.
I love the design. The retro futuristic feel is totally unique and very Detroit. The fountain, the spiral to nowhere, the sunken main stage, the labor wheel - so many circles. It is incredible for festivals as it has 3 very unique viewing areas. Movement, Jazz festival, ribs and soul...they need to bring in more events. Yeah improvements are needed but not an overhaul to this wonderfully quirky plaza.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Most comments here have some merit. Agreed, DeLemur, the park needs more events. While it is a park, it is also an event space. Currently it is very underprogrammed. Hart Plaza is a very large, wide space, which causes it to seen pretty deserted, except when something big is going on there. The place needs more life. More events [[concerts, cultural & food fests, art shows) would help. It would be cool if the ampitheatre [[if it had one) could be used frequently, having everything from DSO to church choirs to pop acts to movies using it during fair weather. I wish there were an open lawn with an adjoining kiosk that rented frisbees, baseballs & gloves, footballs, hackey sacks, etc. Regular fitness events for residents and downtown workers could also be held on the lawn. More and better food options [[trucks are fine on the perimeter, but several different and spaced out options) would be nice. A full service cafe of some sort, plus a variety of trucks, kiosks & carts making it sort of a 3-season food court. Better integration into the Riverwalk, including making HP the place to rent bikes, rollerblades, Segways, etc. And as others have noted, better maintenance & a little prettying-up [[not on the level of Meijer Gardens, but it could use more flowers and interesting plants) would go a long way. I would also commission an artist & lighting firm to collaborate on colorful and creative evening illumination, so that a post-dusk stroll could be a tour of amazing visual surprises.

[Mackinaw]

I think the Park itself needs only minor tweaks, but its adjacent land, particularly to the east, needs a total overhaul which will benefit the park and activate it.

As to the park itself, I'd add one or two new attractions that will get people's attention-- like the beach in Campus Martius-- and introduce a small restaurant overlooking the river. Other than that, not much to do except adding seating [[cafe tables/chairs and park benches) and perhaps livening up the landscaping. Would be wonderful if the Campus Martius Foundation could expand and have HP as part of its purview.

Some important ancillary things which must be done to help activate the space are:

-fix the urban planning catastrophe which is Bates Street. There is literally no usage along Bates. Mixed use development will activate both that street, an important connection between the CBD and river, and bring regular users to Hart Plaza-- particularly it there is residential development and the ability to walk directly out onto either Bates or the Plaza itself. Seems a no-brainer. The situation is particularly dire at the corner of Atwater, where we have multiple surface parking lots and some sort of police parking facility. Absurd use of that space. With the Ford Aud. gone, there is lots of flexibility for creating a mixed use development[[s) that fronts on Bates and the Plaza.

-Added pedestrian-friendly crossings of Jefferson. It's not so bad at Woodward, but the other corners like Griswold and Randolph are tough. That needs to be fixed.

-Added pedestrian safety at the bridge outlet.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

All good points, Mackinaw. I hadn't thought about crossing Jefferson being an issue, but you're right.

[gthomas]

I kind of liked this design from this competition few years back. Also, isn't there some sort of planned high-rise on the old Ford Auditorium site promised by creditors? http://www.archdaily.com/322414/detr...iej-woroniecki

[DeLemur]

Most comments here have some merit. Agreed, DeLemur, the park needs more events. While it is a park, it is also an event space. Currently it is very underprogrammed. Hart Plaza is a very large, wide space, which causes it to seen pretty deserted, except when something big is going on there. The place needs more life. More events [[concerts, cultural & food fests, art shows) would help. It would be cool if the ampitheatre [[if it had one) could be used frequently, having everything from DSO to church choirs to pop acts to movies using it during fair weather. I wish there were an open lawn with an adjoining kiosk that rented frisbees, baseballs & gloves, footballs, hackey sacks, etc. Regular fitness events for residents and downtown workers could also be held on the lawn. More and better food options [[trucks are fine on the perimeter, but several different and spaced out options) would be nice. A full service cafe of some sort, plus a variety of trucks, kiosks & carts making it sort of a 3-season food court. Better integration into the Riverwalk, including making HP the place to rent bikes, rollerblades, Segways, etc. And as others have noted, better maintenance & a little prettying-up [[not on the level of Meijer Gardens, but it could use more flowers and interesting plants) would go a long way. I would also commission an artist & lighting firm to collaborate on colorful and creative evening illumination, so that a post-dusk stroll could be a tour of amazing visual surprises.

Good ideas here and from Mackinaw. I've always thought the athletic element could be pushed on the West Riverfront in those fields of green. It seems ripe for soccer, friesbe, football - whatever. Also, Belle Isle is totally underutilized with local recreational sports. The state should really get those baseball, soccer and cricket fields cooking.
Having said that, renting bikes at HP is a great idea, segways and some of those limited sports is great. I just see fields of green in other locations, plus better parking for incoming people.

[Gistok]

I kind of liked this design from this competition few years back. Also, isn't there some sort of planned high-rise on the old Ford Auditorium site promised by creditors? http://www.archdaily.com/322414/detr...iej-woroniecki

Wasn't aware that any creditors got the Ford Auditorium site. They did get the JLA site though.

I don't think anyone got the Ford Auditorium site.... the city doesn't want any high rises there. This was shown in the 1990s when Comerica wanted the site to build a 30 story Cesar Pelli designed new HQ. That idea was nixed as further restricting the riverfront views/access.

[Mackinaw]

thanks all. This is the sort of thread I wish a Gilbert or a Duggan could see.

In my last post a correction: meant to say tunnel, not bridge. I'm sure you all could tell haha.

[Bham1982]

I don't think anyone got the Ford Auditorium site.... the city doesn't want any high rises there. This was shown in the 1990s when Comerica wanted the site to build a 30 story Cesar Pelli designed new HQ. That idea was nixed as further restricting the riverfront views/access.

Hmm, it didn't really go down like that.

Yes, Comerica proposed a new HQ on the Ford Auditorum site, and, yeah, there was some public controversy, but it was more about demolishing Ford Auditorium rather than against highrises on the river [[after all the biggest highrises in Detroit are right on the river, right next to the site).

And Comerica didn't back off because the city nixed the plan, they backed off because the economy took a dive, and there was plenty of available empty office space downtown.

If Dan Gilbert proposed a 30 floor building on the Ford Auditorium site today, the entire civic apparatus would line up in support, just as with Comerica.

[Hypestyles]

Why isn't there a ferris wheel, for warm weather days? Like Chicago..

[Gistok]

Hmm, it didn't really go down like that.

Yes, Comerica proposed a new HQ on the Ford Auditorum site, and, yeah, there was some public controversy, but it was more about demolishing Ford Auditorium rather than against highrises on the river [[after all the biggest highrises in Detroit are right on the river, right next to the site).

And Comerica didn't back off because the city nixed the plan, they backed off because the economy took a dive, and there was plenty of available empty office space downtown.

If Dan Gilbert proposed a 30 floor building on the Ford Auditorium site today, the entire civic apparatus would line up in support, just as with Comerica.

Actually it was both... the City Council [[lots of goofy members back then) criticized it both for razing Ford Auditorium AND for selling off the public land to a private developer to block the river like the RenCen already did.

Here's an image of the planned tower...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/decojim/2838165748

As to the economy taking a dive... it wasn't anything like the most recent one and only lasted about a year....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_..._United_States

But you were what? About 8-9 years old back then? Your memory of it may not have been so good....

[DeLemur]

Why isn't there a ferris wheel, for warm weather days? Like Chicago..

Like Chicago haaa

[expatriate]

Am I the only person who hates the Dodge Fountain? I haven't seen this thing operational more than a few times in my life. The complexity of the mechanisms practically guaranteed that it could not be maintained properly. A traditional fountain that operates on simple pumps and gravity, a la Scott Fountain, would have been a better choice than this non working Bellagio wannabe.
It is not even an attractive sculpture. I can't imagine that Anna Thompson Dodge who left the money for this monstrosity would have approved of the design considering that her tastes in mansions were more of the Beaux Arts period. I don't know if the terms of this "gift" require that it remain in Hart Plaza, but if had my way it would be exiled to Rouge Park or some other location, if not completely dismantled and sold for scrap. [[just kidding, but maybe we could sell it to some other gullible city)