Metro home sales, prices hit 10-year high - MI unemployment at 4.7%

[ddaydetroit]

^^ What kind of shop do you own, if you don't mind me asking?

A weld shop with our own little niche in the field much of the welding is done under a micro scope. The local high schools have literately taking the shop classes out and put computer classes in the same space and the school counselors push the kids away from blue collar work to go to collage. There are many welders out there but we need the ones with a little more skill level and many shops are looking for the same guys we are.

[Bigdd]

I have the same issue dday.

I'll look at resumees and they're a disaster. 6 jobs in 9 years,... all with 6 month gaps in the middle [[meaning what they REALLY want is to work JUST long enough that they can collect unemployment).

Or they'll mention a chain like Best Buy,.. but not the location,.. supervisor or contact info so that you can check the reference out. When you DO get a hold of the store,.. they never heard of the person.

I think welfare is the biggest problem. Many in Detroit grew up with a parent that was collecting,. and figured they never really had to try in school,.. because worst case scenario they could get a gov't check and hustle some extra bux for fun money. Then as an adult they realize it doesn't quite work that way [[especially if they're not female with 4 children),.. and now they need to find a job,.. but they have no work ethic, no skills, and almost no education.

The gov't pushes people into college because it creates debt for their banker friends,.. and keeps people off the unemployment list.

But the reality is college is only supposed to be for a VERY small percentage of the population,.. and it's NOT designed to make you employable. It is designed to teach you a little bit about a lot of subjects,.. so you can seem educated and participate in conversations at dinner parties.

TRADE SCHOOLS are designed to give you a good paying career. [[Universities are supposed to be a combination of both,.. college and trade school mixed,.. so if you take engineering, law, medicine, welding, drafting, architecture etc,.. your last 2 years are sort of a trade school).

But the idea that everyone should go to college after high-school is a disaster. Borderline treason. A certified welder in Alaska makes 10x what an English major does. And they can get a job pretty much anywhere they want.

[3WC]

There are countless stories about attempts to find good employees. One of my business partners owns aluminum and steel foundries. He needed unskilled people in one of his foundries. The working conditions were very hot and the hours long. He advertised for workers in Detroit and promised to arrange transportation to and from work. After 90 days the employees were enrolled in the company profit sharing plan and were given full health insurance through the Detroit Tooling Association medical plan, a truly Cadillac plan. He got 41 applicants. Thirty nine flunked the drug test. The two remaining took the jobs; one lasted a week and quit because he said he didn't want to work so much overtime [[at $18/hour) and the other quit after two weeks because the work was too "strenuous." I realize that's anecdotal and there are many success stories.

I guess the main point is that drug usage is devastating to our economy. There we had 39 unskilled people apparently ready and willing to work but couldn't because of their prior or current drug usage.

[313WX]

The two remaining took the jobs; one lasted a week and quit because he said he didn't want to work so much overtime [[at $18/hour) and the other quit after two weeks because the work was too "strenuous."

That's part of the problem, a base pay rate of only $12/hr. That's not even a living wage. And there's no telling what other conditions are in place [[besides the drug testing and the high temps).

There was a post from someone several years ago who graduated from Cass Tech in 1969 with absolutely no work experience and immediately walked into a job with similarly long hour and similar working conditions paying $2.65/hr [[equivalent to $20/hr today). With that wage, they were able to afford a modest home, a modest car and still have disposable income at the end of the day [[without government assistance)

The fact is business owners are going to get what they pay for. It's also unrealistic to expect anything other than bottom of the barrel employees or employees who will eagerly go above and beyond if you're paying low wages.

[3WC]

313, note that neither employee quit because of the pay rate. They'll both go back to long term unemployment. And you and most of the rest of us will be supporting them. I guess you don't mind that at all.

At $12/hr for 40 hours and $18/hr for, say 10 hours with a lot $31,000/yr. That doesn't include the best health care possible and profit sharing. A guy working there for 30 years would walk away with between $225,000 -$260,000 depending on various factors. And no cost for transportation to and from work. Not bad

But I can see you'd rather pay them to sit around at home and collect welfare. Or, maybe go out and get some job training so they'd have something besides a warm body to offer employers. Yeah, right.

What's your solution 313? Use your MBA from the Wharton School and experience starting and operating profitable businesses to give us an economic analysis of the problem and the solution. [[Sorry I'm a little snide and sarcastic but having listened to Bernie for months I can guess your response.)

[313WX]

313, note that neither employee quit because of the pay rate. They'll both go back to long term unemployment. And you and most of the rest of us will be supporting them. I guess you don't mind that at all.

At $12/hr for 40 hours and $18/hr for, say 10 hours with a lot $31,000/yr. That doesn't include the best health care possible and profit sharing. A guy working there for 30 years would walk away with between $225,000 -$260,000 depending on various factors. And no cost for transportation to and from work. Not bad

But I can see you'd rather pay them to sit around at home and collect welfare. Or, maybe go out and get some job training so they'd have something besides a warm body to offer employers. Yeah, right.

What's your solution 313? Use your MBA from the Wharton School and experience starting and operating profitable businesses to give us an economic analysis of the problem and the solution. [[Sorry I'm a little snide and sarcastic but having listened to Bernie for months I can guess your response.)

It's not my responsibility to come up with solutions. That's why, in theory, we elect and appoint leaders to come up with and implement solutions. And even if I did have a solution, there a good chance it wouldn't be popular amongst people like yourself.

But all of that is besides the point. It just pisses me off whenever I hear business owners whine about struggling to find employees when the labor force participation rate and employment numbers are near historic laws. The problem is far more complex than people simply wanting to continue receiving welfare and unemployment checks [[at least for anyone who was smart enough to not buy into this drivel when Reagan and Clinton preached it in the 1980s and 1990s).

In a capitalist society, just like business owners want to receive the maximum return and profit for themselves while putting in the least amount of effort and cost, the workers want to do the same. If this means sitting on the couch and doing nothing while receiving government assistance is the better option than working in unfavorable working conditions for low wages, so be it.

If business owners hate this so much, they would either invest more resources in training those who would be happy to work for such low wages in those type of conditions or increase the amount of competition they offer in order to make it worthwhile for decent employees to work for them. To do otherwise reeks of entitlement.

BTW, just to show how complex the situation really is, there was the below two articles from a year or two ago that showed how truly poor the "recovery" in Michigan has been since Autopocalypse despite the positive spin in the OP's article...

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ment/20941729/

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index....d_also_br.html

[3WC]

313: The third paragraph from the bottom of your post above starting with "In a Capitalist society...." indicates to me that you have neither experience in nor an understanding of Capitalism or Labor. For you to say that businessmen want maximum profit while putting in the least amount of effort and cost [[do you mean "investment?" I assume you do) is simply ludicrous. You are totally out of touch with reality.

Saying that the better course for the unemployed is to sit around doing nothing and collecting welfare "rather than working in unfavorable working conditions for low wages" is as ludicrous as the prior statement about business people.

I know many, many very wealth, wealthy and affluent people and as many hard working employees and none of them believe or conduct themselves as you apparently think they do. They work hard, take many risks, sacrifice for a better life, and struggle to achieve what they wish to. That goes for employers and employees. Those concepts are foreign to you I know.

The real problem in my opinion is that so many people apparently feel as you do. Go tilt at windmills and follow Bernie off the cliff. That would solve at least one small problem.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

There are countless stories about attempts to find good employees. One of my business partners owns aluminum and steel foundries. He needed unskilled people in one of his foundries. The working conditions were very hot and the hours long. He advertised for workers in Detroit and promised to arrange transportation to and from work. After 90 days the employees were enrolled in the company profit sharing plan and were given full health insurance through the Detroit Tooling Association medical plan, a truly Cadillac plan. He got 41 applicants. Thirty nine flunked the drug test. The two remaining took the jobs; one lasted a week and quit because he said he didn't want to work so much overtime [[at $18/hour) and the other quit after two weeks because the work was too "strenuous." I realize that's anecdotal and there are many success stories.

I guess the main point is that drug usage is devastating to our economy. There we had 39 unskilled people apparently ready and willing to work but couldn't because of their prior or current drug usage.

I am curious as to what sort of drugs caused 39 failures. A bit of weed? And is that really job related? Perhaps everyone is required to abstain from alcohol too? Of course not...

[Dumpling]

3WC, revered industrialist Henry Ford felt your pain. That is PARTLY why so many
Muslims, whose faith forbids them to drink alcohol, live near Dearborn.

Drugs and alcohol are a form of self harm. LIKEWISE working long hours in excessive
heat is another form of self harm. This union maid would like to urge you to urge your
business partner to [[1) reduce those long hours - this will also help your employees raise
their babies better, a goal revered industrialist Henry Ford would have happily endorsed
[[he was a Yankee, as am I, which makes me antique); [[2) address that excessive heat
situation somehow - have a chilled air area close by, have heat shields, whatever accomodation is reasonable; [[3) provide for the uplift of his/her employees in all other
ways as reasonable.
Two side points. The dot-com era has superseded the Yankee era. We Yankees don't
own the road quite so totally as we used to. Also, yes, it is true that those employees
you might find to work in a foundry would be better off with a disability payout so
the risk management and insurance aspect does need to be considered too. It's not
personal, it's business.

[313WX]

313: The third paragraph from the bottom of your post above starting with "In a Capitalist society...." indicates to me that you have neither experience in nor an understanding of Capitalism or Labor. For you to say that businessmen want maximum profit while putting in the least amount of effort and cost [[do you mean "investment?" I assume you do) is simply ludicrous. You are totally out of touch with reality.

Both of my points are factually correct, even if they don't make some feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Business owners open companies for the sole purpose of making a profit, and they can only do so by maximizing efficiently at scale. Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

So it's understandable that the one owner you describe in your post would only want to pay their workers $12/hr as a base wage, because otherwise it would be more money out of their pocket. That's their money and their decision to make. But don't whine about not being able to attract decent employees when you're consciously choosing to do business that way.

Saying that the better course for the unemployed is to sit around doing nothing and collecting welfare "rather than working in unfavorable working conditions for low wages" is as ludicrous as the prior statement about business people.

I didn't say it was the better course. In fact, I think it's ridiculous that companies such as Walmart and McDonald's pay their employees so poorly knowing full and well that the government will pay for the rest of their workers expenses via TANF and SNAP.

In an ideal world, everyone would be paid a fair [[read: living) wage in exchange for their labor and wouldn't have to rely on the government to supplement their basic expenses.

But that's not reality as we know it. The fact is, from a worker's perspective, if they can receive more money simply signing up for government assistance while doing little work than they would doing back breaking hour for 10+ hours per day, is it really that hard to figure which option they'll take? People must have strong enough incentives to work.

[Baselinepunk]

"A guy working there for 30 years would walk away with between $225,000 -$260,000 depending on various factors. And no cost for transportation to and from work. Not bad"

.....and this is the huge issue we are all facing today.

This is supposed to be good earnings? Blowing 30 years of your life for just barely 1/4 millions dollars? A buddy who is a small businessman grossed that number in his first two years in the mind 90s. Did you factor into that "generous" figure no pay raises, employee contribution toward health care and retirement?

It really blows my mind that Capitalist Pig Dogs throw this around - like they are so generous for providing basement wages and that the employee is soooo spoiled that we're supposed to say "thank you sir, may I have another?"

Get your head outta 1983. $31,000 a year barely makes it nowadays for one person.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

"A guy working there for 30 years would walk away with between $225,000 -$260,000 depending on various factors. And no cost for transportation to and from work. Not bad"

.....and this is the huge issue we are all facing today.

This is supposed to be good earnings? Blowing 30 years of your life for just barely 1/4 millions dollars? A buddy who is a small businessman grossed that number in his first two years in the mind 90s. Did you factor into that "generous" figure no pay raises, employee contribution toward health care and retirement?

It really blows my mind that Capitalist Pig Dogs throw this around - like they are so generous for providing basement wages and that the employee is soooo spoiled that we're supposed to say "thank you sir, may I have another?"

Get your head outta 1983. $31,000 a year barely makes it nowadays for one person.

Not to mention the fact that its extremely unlikely that the job would exist for 30 years. That just does not happen these days.

So after a few years you can get another job, have no vacation time in the new job, wait to qualify for a new 401[[k) perhaps, started vesting all over again, and resume working on that itty bitty nest egg. Rinse and repeat.

[Baselinepunk]

Not to mention the fact that its extremely unlikely that the job would exist for 30 years. That just does not happen these days.

So after a few years you can get another job, have no vacation time in the new job, wait to qualify for a new 401[[k) perhaps, started vesting all over again, and resume working on that itty bitty nest egg. Rinse and repeat.

I've been employed, legally one way or another, for over 33 years and have never had a paid day of vacation. Rarely, a paid sick day.

But I guess I'm a whiney ass bitch because I brought it up and didn't pull my boot straps up past my head in order to realize that supposed "American Dream".

[Towne Cluber]

I am curious as to what sort of drugs caused 39 failures. A bit of weed? And is that really job related? Perhaps everyone is required to abstain from alcohol too? Of course not...

Come into the Detroit neighborhoods [[not Downtown/Midtown/Palmer Woods/etc) these days and see if you're still singing that tune. Weed smell everywhere. People hanging out all day and night. Wreckless driving and accidents all over the place. If you don't want to go into the neighborhoods, try shopping centers such as the Meijer on 8 Mile.

[3WC]

313: You say "Business owners open companies for the sole purpose of making a profit..." DUH. Is there another reason? By the way, as many businesses fail as are successful, maybe more.

My friend has 100 very satisfied employees who work in a safe environment for more money than they can make anywhere else by a long shot. They are responsible people who have pride, unlike many on this forum apparently. Many have taken steps to improve their skills by going to community colleges and getting jobs paying more both in the company and at others. That's what America used to be like. Less and less. People like you and a couple of others feel so entitled that you've lost your pride and would rather sit on your asses than make something of yourselves. Shame on all of you. But then again, you're leading the lives you deserve. Too bad.

....punk [[great name): Quarter of a million isn't good enough for you after 30 years? What are you going to have after 30, assuming you too are unskilled and not very willing to work hard apparently?

West Coast [[it figures; CA for sure, or may the People's Republic of Portland) - My friend' company has been there for 47 years and as long as they're making cars and planes and need tooling to do so they'll be there another 47.

....punk: the last sentence of your post #737 is probably accurate. 737 posts? Get a life.

Cincinatti KId: Too bad about Bernie, right?

Town Cluber: You're wasting bandwidth trying to explain the facts of life in the big city to these people. Just remember: Facts Don't Count.

Oh, 313, you also said that businesses can only make profits by "maximizing efficiencies at scale." I don't know what that means and you sure as hell don't either. Gobbledygook.

[313WX]

Oh, 313, you also said that businesses can only make profits by "maximizing efficiencies at scale." I don't know what that means...

You already said it yourself what it means when telling the story about your colleague who owns this business.

In other words, he's consciously paying low wages [[or $12/hr) in an effort to keep expenses that cut into his profit at a minimum. A pretty simple concept.

And that's perfectly within his right to do so. But let's call a spade a spade and not try to sugar coat it.

[313WX]

BTW 3WC, it's nothing personal against you or this colleague of yours. But again, I hate it when people try to trivialize complex situations [[such as implying that people on welfare and unemployment don't want to work).

[3WC]

313, your heart may be in the right place but you just don't understand the fundamentals of business.

You say my friend is "consciously paying low wages [[@12/hr) in an effort to keep expenses that cut into profits at a minimum." First, my friend is paying higher wages than the industry pays for similar unskilled workers. That's one reason he has so many contented employees and his employee turnover is minimal. Smart business owners don't seek to pay the lowest wages possible; they pay what they have to pay to get and keep good employees. I've always paid more than my competition because my best assets - employees - walk out the door every evening. But, I and every business owner MUST make a profit or everybody loses. An owner always seeks to maximize profit without destroying the business. And, paying below mkt wages is a good way to do it.

And, you have absolutely NO BASIS for coming to the conclusions you do. You know nothing of the business. You don't know the prevailing wage rates in that business. You don't know whether the business even makes a profit [[it does.) Customers often require that the business provide detailed financial statements to assure themselves that the supplier IS profitable and will likely be able to fulfill its contract/purchase agreement.

Somebody up there pooh poohed the idea that a worker after 30 years may have "only" $250,000 in profit sharing saying he had a friend who grossed that amount in 2 years. Likely, the poster who made that comment hasn't a clue about economics, finance, or business in general. What a business GROSSES is irrelevant. What counts is the net income [[if any), what's left of the gross after paying all the bills, salaries, wages etc. It's easy for a business grossing $125,000/yr to be losing $25,000/yr. A business grossing a billion a year may lose $50 million. Take Old GM for example. The poster just doesn't have a clue.

Finally, don't claim that I feel that people on welfare necessarily don't want to work. I never said or implied that. Many of course don't. Many are third generation welfare recipients and have just
dropped out and given up. Welfare in this country is the process by which politicians buy votes in too many cases. We have a duty to provide all the assistance possibly to the impaired and those that honestly can't take care of themselves. I believe every able bodied person should be required to work, stay of drugs, and contribute to society. That means doing any job offered just as they handled the problem during the depression with the WPA.

[313WX]

313, your heart may be in the right place but you just don't understand the fundamentals of business.

You say my friend is "consciously paying low wages [[@12/hr) in an effort to keep expenses that cut into profits at a minimum." First, my friend is paying higher wages than the industry pays for similar unskilled workers. That's one reason he has so many contented employees and his employee turnover is minimal. Smart business owners don't seek to pay the lowest wages possible; they pay what they have to pay to get and keep good employees. I've always paid more than my competition because my best assets - employees - walk out the door every evening. But, I and every business owner MUST make a profit or everybody loses. An owner always seeks to maximize profit without destroying the business. And, paying below mkt wages is a good way to do it.

And, you have absolutely NO BASIS for coming to the conclusions you do. You know nothing of the business. You don't know the prevailing wage rates in that business. You don't know whether the business even makes a profit [[it does.) Customers often require that the business provide detailed financial statements to assure themselves that the supplier IS profitable and will likely be able to fulfill its contract/purchase agreement.

Somebody up there pooh poohed the idea that a worker after 30 years may have "only" $250,000 in profit sharing saying he had a friend who grossed that amount in 2 years. Likely, the poster who made that comment hasn't a clue about economics, finance, or business in general. What a business GROSSES is irrelevant. What counts is the net income [[if any), what's left of the gross after paying all the bills, salaries, wages etc. It's easy for a business grossing $125,000/yr to be losing $25,000/yr. A business grossing a billion a year may lose $50 million. Take Old GM for example. The poster just doesn't have a clue.

Finally, don't claim that I feel that people on welfare necessarily don't want to work. I never said or implied that. Many of course don't. Many are third generation welfare recipients and have just
dropped out and given up. Welfare in this country is the process by which politicians buy votes in too many cases. We have a duty to provide all the assistance possibly to the impaired and those that honestly can't take care of themselves. I believe every able bodied person should be required to work, stay of drugs, and contribute to society. That means doing any job offered just as they handled the problem during the depression with the WPA.

You're missing the entire point.

If you can't attract employees other than those who are addicted to drugs or those who would make more money on welfare, take some responsibility for the situation and do what you need to do to attract better employees. If that means paying better wages and benefits than you offer though, so be it.

Otherwise, stop complaining and deal with it. Whining about the struggle to find good help isn't going to magically lead to you finding good help in/of itself.

BTW, as a side bar, I always find it laugh whenever employers claim they're paying "market rate" to defend their low wages. But the fact is, as an article I posted before shows, these same jobs used to pay way more than today's supposed "market rate" 20 years ago, and workers [[who aren't stupid) do realize this before they consider taking on these jobs to bust their ass everyday for a pittance in comparison to what they would have earned before.

Even with old GM, everyone used to start making the same rate of $25+/hr before the recession with a lifetime pension and healthcare benefits that were virtually 100% paid for after retirement, and now new hires must start at a much lower tier earning half the pay as their counterparts who started 10-15 years earlier with only a 401K plan and high deductible health insurance plans.

No one person / event is to blame for the aforementioned situation, but again is just goes to show how fucked up the economic landscape in America has become for everyone [[workers and small business owners).

[3WC]

313: It's pretty clear we're both wasting our time here, and beating a dead horse.

Good luck to you.

[Scottathew]

I guess the main point is that drug usage is devastating to our economy. There we had 39 unskilled people apparently ready and willing to work but couldn't because of their prior or current drug usage.

Is drug use devastating? Or is caring about who smokes weed devastating?

[313WX]

313: It's pretty clear we're both wasting our time here, and beating a dead horse.

Good luck to you.

I didn't feel the honest but blunt dialogue we had was a waste of time, but it's unfortunate that you feel otherwise.

Good luck to you as well.

[Towne Cluber]

Lack of business acumen [[by both city government as well as many of the citizenry) has been a major factor in the downfall of Detroit. It continues to be one of the major impediments towards the city's improvement.

[3WC]

48307: I don't understand your second question, but the answer to the first is YES.

I could care less what people do to their bodies by abusing booze, drugs, tobacco or any other conduct. UNLESS it negatively impact me.

I have seen the devastation caused by drugs [[and booze etc) in my oil and gas businesses in TX. I provided wages above the norm in the area, was one of two operators that provided health insurance, and provided the employees with pick up truck which they could use coming to work and going home. The work could be dangerous if everyone wasn't alert at all times. It was a firing offense to bring booze or drugs on the leases and if anyone was caught in a random drug test with traces of the stuff in their systems they were immediately fires. I had several three man teams running pulling units and it was expected that if any crew member showed up under the influence, his crew mates usually turned them in. For them it was a matter of self preservation.

Drug use was a major problem for operators in the oil patch and countless otherwise good workers were fired and went to truck driving school or something. These are all young guys making a lot of money, many of them single, and many totally irresponsible; warrants for unpaid speeding tickets, unpaid child support and so forth. You either took care of those things or you didn't work on my leases [[or most other operator's as well.)

Drugs screwed up the lives of so many. Detroit's got to be much worse. It's a curse.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

Does it concern anybody that you see people on welfare spending $2,000 a year on cigarettes? It does me.

313: I did not articulate my thought very well. What I meant was that I thought we all said everything we had to say on the subject and were repeating ourselves. No offense intended. Bad choice of words on my part.

[ABetterDetroit]

48307: I don't understand your second question, but the answer to the first is YES.

I could care less what people do to their bodies by abusing booze, drugs, tobacco or any other conduct. UNLESS it negatively impact me.

I have seen the devastation caused by drugs [[and booze etc) in my oil and gas businesses in TX. I provided wages above the norm in the area, was one of two operators that provided health insurance, and provided the employees with pick up truck which they could use coming to work and going home. The work could be dangerous if everyone wasn't alert at all times. It was a firing offense to bring booze or drugs on the leases and if anyone was caught in a random drug test with traces of the stuff in their systems they were immediately fires. I had several three man teams running pulling units and it was expected that if any crew member showed up under the influence, his crew mates usually turned them in. For them it was a matter of self preservation.

Drug use was a major problem for operators in the oil patch and countless otherwise good workers were fired and went to truck driving school or something. These are all young guys making a lot of money, many of them single, and many totally irresponsible; warrants for unpaid speeding tickets, unpaid child support and so forth. You either took care of those things or you didn't work on my leases [[or most other operator's as well.)

Drugs screwed up the lives of so many. Detroit's got to be much worse. It's a curse.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

Does it concern anybody that you see people on welfare spending $2,000 a year on cigarettes? It does me.

313: I did not articulate my thought very well. What I meant was that I thought we all said everything we had to say on the subject and were repeating ourselves. No offense intended. Bad choice of words on my part.

I completely agree with you that the abuse of drugs and alcohol are a major problem especially but far from limited to the workplace.

The question I ask you is how long is "the war on drugs" going to continue in complete and total failure? Prohibition only lasted 13 years. Drugs are far more common in the U.S. now than when Nixon started this trillion dollar war. We are still the #1 consumer in the world and have created countless narco states. Where is the success? Is there any point in time when we cut off the annual flow of 10s of billions of dollars to organized crime, thugs and killers? All I see is a problem that continues to get worse and an overall strategy that never changes. To be honest, I am not a Bernie fan either but to keep fighting this problem the same way and expecting a different result so that more people might be satisfied with a $12 hour fifty hour work week in a "hot foundry" seems far more ludicrous.