The State of Michigan Screws Detroit Over Again [[DPS "Rescue" Package)

[313WX]

I'm done with this state.

If it weren't required to have one by law, I'd burn my ID.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/poli...yder/85630880/

Back-room negotiations between Republican leaders in the Senate, House and Gov. Rick Snyder led to the votes needed to pass the life line to the district.

But neither Democratic leaders nor Detroit lawmakers were included in the talks that ended with a 19-18 vote on the main bill in the package late Wednesday night.

"You damn cowards to even take up this legislation before us and our community and not even have one Detroiter in the room to help to negotiate this. These are kids I have to look at every day, but you want to make decisions about their life and tell them what kind of life they’re going to have. This is the crap you’re shoving down their throats. This is going to impact them for years."ere included in the talks that ended with a 19-18 vote on the main bill in the package late Wednesday night.

[Bobl]

Nothing new. What the Devos family wants, the Devos family gets, in Michigan. The plan to replace public schools with private charter schools is gaining momentum.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Someone would have to explain to me, apart from the union rhetoric, how the DEC would somehow improve outcomes. As I said before, it's an absurd argument. What amazes me [[I guess it shouldn't, but it does) is that getting $617MM for Detroit would ordinarily be the cause for celebration. When it doesn't come with restrictions on charters, I guess not.

[3WC]

Detroit and the DPS deserve everything that happens to them. They created the problems and waived their right to sit at the negotiating table.

What do you think outstaters feel about Detroit?

It's true that some debt was incurred while DPS was under some control of the State. However, it would be much worse off than had the State not stepped in.

If it were up to me the State would never have interfered with the DPS' inexorable slide to the bottom. Money can't cure stupid. [[Too bad the kids have to suffer. Too bad they can't pick their parents. Too bad the voters can't tell a crooked school board member from Mother Teresa.)

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Adam Zemke makes a pretty good case against the bill. I am not surprised that well-connected private charter schools should pretty much have a free reign, even if they fail horribly. Diverting tax-payer funds to for-profit enterprises is more the goal than educating poor kids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D9bGa56YBA

Before Michigan's gerrymandering enabled one party rule, politics was the art of compromise. Now you have a cabal of zealots who are fundamentally opposed to the concept of the government run services [[including public education) passing laws to ensure that tax dollars go anywhere other than to public employees.

There is no excuse that the bi-partisan version was not passed, or that "small government" Republicans who wax poetic over local input and control would dictate this - unless one understands their ideological motivations.

[Junjie]

Adam Zemke makes a pretty good case against the bill. I am not surprised that well-connected private charter schools should pretty much have a free reign, even if they fail horribly. Diverting tax-payer funds to for-profit enterprises is more the goal than educating poor kids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D9bGa56YBA

Before Michigan's gerrymandering enabled one party rule, politics was the art of compromise. Now you have a cabal of zealots who are fundamentally opposed to the concept of the government run services [[including public education) passing laws to ensure that tax dollars go anywhere other than to public employees.

There is no excuse that the bi-partisan version was not passed, or that "small government" Republicans who wax poetic over local input and control would dictate this - unless one understands their ideological motivations.

This. Is/was DPS a total mess, in part of its own making? Yes. Are state legislators intentionally making the situation worse because of their extremist ideology? Also yes.

Maybe others can "educate" me [[ha), but I thought Duggan did a pretty good job of laying out exactly why the DEC was needed at his speech on Mackinac. If there really are 18 high schools serving greater downtown and 2 for the entire northeast side, each with 3500+ students - then yes, someone needs to be able to tell the charters "Sorry, you can't locate there. You can open over here where we actually need a school." Because, shockingly, the profit motives of the charter operators and what's best for students may not always be the same thing.

[BankruptcyGuy]

If there really are 18 high schools serving greater downtown and 2 for the entire northeast side, each with 3500+ students - then yes, someone needs to be able to tell the charters "Sorry, you can't locate there. You can open over here where we actually need a school." Because, shockingly, the profit motives of the charter operators and what's best for students may not always be the same thing.

DPS has the right, unilaterally, to open a new school wherever they'd like. They haven't chosen to. They have, however, spent millions of dollars on schools they ultimately shut down. So the DEC isn't a method to change DPS behavior--it's only to impact charters.

If there is a "need" in some part of the city that is underserved, there would be absolutely no motivation not to open a school in that area. School funding is still based on pupil count--if the kids come, the school gets the funding it needs. Perhaps the argument that schools need to be located in places where people who have to invest dollars don't agree need exists only serves to disprove the argument.

More proof? When the DPS closes a building, presumably because there aren't enough students to go there, why do they prevent charters from buying those buildings? Those stupid charter operators can't possibly make a school work where a DPS school did not, so what's the worry?

[Johnnny5]

I can't think of a more inefficient means to "improve" public education. Publicly funding charter schools to compete with our public schools. The equivalent in the private sector would be a struggling McDonalds owner buying the opposing corner and opening a Burger King! If it wasn't so sad it would be comical.

[Junjie]

DPS has the right, unilaterally, to open a new school wherever they'd like. They haven't chosen to. They have, however, spent millions of dollars on schools they ultimately shut down. So the DEC isn't a method to change DPS behavior--it's only to impact charters.

Well, yeah. I'm not really disputing the point about DEC being about putting some control over charters. I'm saying that's a good thing, because the decisions they have made so far have been inefficient for the city as a whole.

I'm not gonna defend poor decisions by DPS, but I don't know enough to assign blame for not having enough schools in a given location. Given that 80% of schools in the city [[charter and public) have been opened or closed in the past 7 years, which is an insane amount of upheaval, and given that DPS has been under an EM that whole time, I'll leave it to someone who knows better to explain that.

Footnote: I misquoted the speech. It was 11 high schools in greater downtown, not 18.

If there is a "need" in some part of the city that is underserved, there would be absolutely no motivation not to open a school in that area. School funding is still based on pupil count--if the kids come, the school gets the funding it needs. Perhaps the argument that schools need to be located in places where people who have to invest dollars don't agree need exists only serves to disprove the argument.

Right, this is just the same "let the market operate, and if it operates to the detriment of some, that just proves that those people's interests weren't valid in the first place" ideology. Useless. There really are two schools with too many students serving all of the NE, unless you have evidence Duggan was lying. So where are the charters?

In the real world, which does not operate according to ideology, people make stupid, uncoordinated decisions all the time. They make choices that lose their own money, that lose others' money, that miss opportunities for money, that don't achieve the goals they intended, or that are otherwise "non-optimal" compared to what economic theory would suggest. Given that we're not talking about a market anyway, but about providing a public good, I support having some body under elected control whose sole purpose is to coordinate the placement of schools, transportation of students, and closure of substandard schools citywide.

More proof? When the DPS closes a building, presumably because there aren't enough students to go there, why do they prevent charters from buying those buildings? Those stupid charter operators can't possibly make a school work where a DPS school did not, so what's the worry?

Yeah, I don't know, but that doesn't really speak to the larger point about the DEC at all. Maybe after spending two decades as the subjects of a social experiment intentionally designed to drive down teacher wages, destroy their political power, and funnel public money to private interests, they're not really inclined to sell their buildings to charter operators. Not saying DPS are saints by a long shot - we all know about the corruption and failure - but that's just sort of human nature.

[Hermod]

If there really are 18 high schools serving greater downtown and 2 for the entire northeast side, each with 3500+ students - then yes, someone needs to be able to tell the charters "Sorry, you can't locate there. You can open over here where we actually need a school." Because, shockingly, the profit motives of the charter operators and what's best for students may not always be the same thing.

In 1954 when Detroit had 1.8 million people, there were only two high schools in the northeast, Pershing and Denby. Denby had over 4,000 students [[all of whom walked). Last time I looked, Denby had 2,500 or so.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Well, yeah. I'm not really disputing the point about DEC being about putting some control over charters. I'm saying that's a good thing, because the decisions they have made so far have been inefficient for the city as a whole.

I'm not gonna defend poor decisions by DPS, but I don't know enough to assign blame for not having enough schools in a given location. Given that 80% of schools in the city [[charter and public) have been opened or closed in the past 7 years, which is an insane amount of upheaval, and given that DPS has been under an EM that whole time, I'll leave it to someone who knows better to explain that.

Footnote: I misquoted the speech. It was 11 high schools in greater downtown, not 18.



Right, this is just the same "let the market operate, and if it operates to the detriment of some, that just proves that those people's interests weren't valid in the first place" ideology. Useless. There really are two schools with too many students serving all of the NE, unless you have evidence Duggan was lying. So where are the charters?

In the real world, which does not operate according to ideology, people make stupid, uncoordinated decisions all the time. They make choices that lose their own money, that lose others' money, that miss opportunities for money, that don't achieve the goals they intended, or that are otherwise "non-optimal" compared to what economic theory would suggest. Given that we're not talking about a market anyway, but about providing a public good, I support having some body under elected control whose sole purpose is to coordinate the placement of schools, transportation of students, and closure of substandard schools citywide.



Yeah, I don't know, but that doesn't really speak to the larger point about the DEC at all. Maybe after spending two decades as the subjects of a social experiment intentionally designed to drive down teacher wages, destroy their political power, and funnel public money to private interests, they're not really inclined to sell their buildings to charter operators. Not saying DPS are saints by a long shot - we all know about the corruption and failure - but that's just sort of human nature.

I don't know how to separate your quote into sections, so I'll have to reply sequentially:

First of all, thank you for a rational discussion of the issue. That has been sorely lacking in this debate.

Your first point suggests that the DEC would be more "efficient" at locating schools than the current setup, which is a combination of centralized control by DPS and free market through the charters. If both of those groups have declined to locate a school in a certain area, why would eliminating one part of the combination solve that? No, the only way that works is if a partial monopoly is given to one provider.

More importantly, can you think of too many areas where centralized government control, or state-granted corporate monopolies, can be described as "efficient?"

Secondly, to your point about having coordinated control, we have to clearly establish who that body has "control" over. Parents can still choose to attend private schools, and still would after the plan. I was [[pleasantly) stunned with the performance of Cristo Del Rey. So that's still an option. Parents who are less wealthy, but still have access to transportation, can elect to enroll in schools-of-choice districts in Wayne County and otherwise. I don't have the number handy, but it was over 20,000 in 2011. My guess is that it has grown in the last five years. Those kids are also not being impacted. The only sub-group being impacted is children who a) have parents who don't want to attend a DPS school for one reason or another, and b) don't have the means to go private or school of choice. So tell me, why would we want to limit the choice of that group only in the name of "efficiency?"

To your last point about this experiment [[alternative methods of providing education), I tend to think that teachers could really benefit from the free market if the union would just get out of the way. You want the best teachers? You have to pay them the best. I know there is one district in upstate NY that has an average teacher salary of $120,000. Students and parents want in the district, and teachers want in, too. But in order to do that, you have to have the ability to promote and reward the good teachers and get rid of the bad. Even with the recent changes to state law on that, it's still pretty difficult.

[middetres]

In 1954 when Detroit had 1.8 million people, there were only two high schools in the northeast, Pershing and Denby. Denby had over 4,000 students [[all of whom walked). Last time I looked, Denby had 2,500 or so.

What about Osborn, Kettering and Finney? Were they not around yet?

[Farwell]

Osborn: 1957, Kettering: 1964. I grew up in northeast Detroit. We considered the high schools of that area to be Pershing and Denby. We had family that lived in the Finney area. They considered themselves as living on the east side of Detroit not the northeast side.

[belleislerunner]

I'm supportive of their action.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for this.

When you have every single candidate that represents your city from the same political party - please explain to me why it would make sense for the majority party [[of which your city has no candidates) to include you in discussions.

If Detroiters are stupid enough to elect every politician from the same political party [[i.e. eggs in one basket) - we should be OK with being ignored for 4 or 8 year intervals if the majority party isn't the one in power.

If we always want to have a voice - we need to elect representatives on both sides. Until then - we'll just be a "whining" town or a town needing bailouts - but without any suggestions or policy movements forward.

[jiminnm]

Osborn: 1957, Kettering: 1964. I grew up in northeast Detroit. We considered the high schools of that area to be Pershing and Denby. We had family that lived in the Finney area. They considered themselves as living on the east side of Detroit not the northeast side.

Wasn't Finney a junior high school that was converted to high school c1960-61?

[Packman41]

I think the parents in Detroit have already voiced their opinion about DPS and voted with their feet.

In the May 27^th edition of the Detroit News they had an article about the DPS rescue plan and they cited the following item:

“In Detroit, about 46,000 students attend DPS schools, 50,000 kids go to charter schools and another 27,000 children attend public schools in neighboring cities.”

This tells you EXACTLY what the parents think of the education product offered by DPS. That is, a large majority, 62.6%, are avoiding that school system altogether and sending their kids elsewhere.

Of the 123,000 kids in Detroit 50,000, or 40.7%, are already enrolled in charter schools inside the city limits. Another 27,000 students, or 22.0%, are sent across city lines to attend another, public school system.

[Wesley Mouch]

Adam Zemke makes a pretty good case against the bill. I am not surprised that well-connected private charter schools should pretty much have a free reign, even if they fail horribly. Diverting tax-payer funds to for-profit enterprises is more the goal than educating poor kids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D9bGa56YBA

Before Michigan's gerrymandering enabled one party rule, politics was the art of compromise. Now you have a cabal of zealots who are fundamentally opposed to the concept of the government run services [[including public education) passing laws to ensure that tax dollars go anywhere other than to public employees.

There is no excuse that the bi-partisan version was not passed, or that "small government" Republicans who wax poetic over local input and control would dictate this - unless one understands their ideological motivations.

I don't see how pouring 600+ million into DPS is harming public employees or going into the pockets for evil for-profit enterprises. Don't get it.

Whether we push tax dollars to public employees or not doesn't seem like its very important to me.

But I cannot get past your statment that Charters are 'failing horribly'. That's a new argument to me. The best I've ever heard on this is that they are no better in aggregate that public schools. Somehow, more than a few urban parents disagree and are willing to let private enterprise steal money from the pockets of a schools district that's so perfect in every way, except that it needs more money.

[Bigdd]

I can't think of a more inefficient means to "improve" public education. Publicly funding charter schools to compete with our public schools. The equivalent in the private sector would be a struggling McDonalds owner buying the opposing corner and opening a Burger King! If it wasn't so sad it would be comical.

Actually,.. that almost always DOES work,.. and fast food companies try to do exactly that. Three fast-food places at one intersectio usually always pulls in 4-5 times as many customers as if there was just one there.

To see why,.. imagine you and your co-workers are all going to go out to eat together. A mile to the East is a Burger King,.. and a mile to the West is a Taco Bell, a McDonalds, a Jimmy Johns and a KFC. Which direction are you going to go? 90% of the time it will be to the West,.. where there is a selection. Leaving the Burger King with 10% of the business,.. and each of the other 4 restaurants with 22.5% a piece.

Only in Detroit do people say $600+ million is bail-out welfare is the evil doings of those on the right. Anyone with a conscience would be embarrassed at their continued failure and thievery,.. and quietly and thankfully accept the welfare,.. then slink off with their head down, and be making plans to try to do better in the future.

[brizee]

Non-certified teachers for Detroit and ONLY Detroit...

This is almost certainly going to be fought to the Supreme Court.

Does this state not actually realize just how shitty it looks to the rest of the country lately.

[Hermod]

Non-certified teachers for Detroit and ONLY Detroit...
This is almost certainly going to be fought to the Supreme Court.
Does this state not actually realize just how shitty it looks to the rest of the country lately.

DPS looked pretty shitty to the rest of the country long before anyone started charter schools.

[Bigdd]

Non-certified teachers for Detroit and ONLY Detroit...

This is almost certainly going to be fought to the Supreme Court.

Does this state not actually realize just how shitty it looks to the rest of the country lately.

Non-certified teachers are also some of the very best there are. They generally work in private schools.

Certification doesn't mean the teacher is smart,.. or enthusiastic, or good,.. it just means they jumped through a bunch of hoops. Then probably became unionized,.. and now can't be fired, even if they commit crimes, fail to perform etc.

The best 3 teachers I know aren't "certified".

Merit based pay is critical also. This will do wonders. New, bright, hard-working teachers will really teach,.. and be rewarded for their efforts,. and not get burned out so fast as they also get rewarded financially for what they do.

And the rotten apples will find it less appealing to stay,.. and it will be cheaper for the district if they need to be parked in the rubber room for a few decades.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Non-certified teachers for Detroit and ONLY Detroit...

This is almost certainly going to be fought to the Supreme Court.

Does this state not actually realize just how shitty it looks to the rest of the country lately.

The newly-elected school board will have the OPTION to use non-certified teachers. No one is forcing them to.

[Wesley Mouch]

Non-certified teachers for Detroit and ONLY Detroit...

This is almost certainly going to be fought to the Supreme Court.

Does this state not actually realize just how shitty it looks to the rest of the country lately.

Non-certified teachers don't mean not qualified. In fact, it probably means just exactly the opposite. They might hire a young computer programmer to teach kids how to program computer games. Or a chemical engineer to teach chemistry. Or a management consultant to teach business. They would very likely be skilled. And probably certified in other areas. But they just wouldn't be career teachers with a TEACHING certificate.

This is giving DETROIT and ONLY DETROIT an edge. Its not a disadvantage nor something to be ashamed of.

[Zacha341]

What you are describing is the the 'career tech' model of teachers who come out of industry, which has advantages for sure. Yet, even some of those teachers matriculate to certain levels of certification and varied degrees in education. I am not certain the 'industry only' would/ could be really applicable for all classes for all curricula. And who is coming out of industry, particularly some the remaining higher pay industries to teach for lower wages?

Further, when is the 'new' and wondrous non certified teaching option going to occur and as the new, eh' 'standard' across the state? If it this is just for Detroit, then I feel this is an option driven by and for a desired political outcome. Not necessarily an advantage.

Non-certified teachers don't mean not qualified. In fact, it probably means just exactly the opposite. They might hire a young computer programmer to teach kids how to program computer games. Or a chemical engineer to teach chemistry. Or a management consultant to teach business. They would very likely be skilled. And probably certified in other areas. But they just wouldn't be career teachers with a TEACHING certificate.

This is giving DETROIT and ONLY DETROIT an edge. Its not a disadvantage nor something to be ashamed of.

[Zacha341]

I get you on that, I am a graduate of Murray-Wright HS which was a combination traditional HS and a career tech -- all in one. Some non certified teachers teach in the career tech schools.

I simply want to add that certification for those who have it, is tied to fairly rigorous state mandated testing, continuing education, including renewal of said certification[[s). Not just having a union card in the back pocket.

Certification doesn't mean the teacher is smart,.. or enthusiastic, or good,.. it just means they jumped through a bunch of hoops. Then probably became unionized,.. and now can't be fired, even if they commit crimes, fail to perform etc.

The best 3 teachers I know aren't "certified".