Qline stimulus? Developer to build 1,000 apartments near QLine

[Lowell]

Megabucks developer Peter Cummings, son-in-law of the late billionaire Max M. Fisher, has announced the creation of a company called Platform with initial plans to created 1000 residential units that "will be within walking distance of the tracks. Cummings plans a mixture of rehabs and new construction. There will also be roughly 150,000 square feet of commercial space."

They will begin with the Fisher and Kahn buildings which he and his partners bought last year. As you may recall he also announced plans to build new residential units on W. Grand Blvd. It seems he is to be the Dan Gilbert of New Center. From Detroit News.

Musing: I admit I don't 'get' the Qline. In a city and metropolis where life is very difficult without a car, to the point where everyone who can will own one. I ask myself, in a such a short stretch already overlapped by frequent bus lines, who will use the Qline other than special event situations or the few who will work, live and play there?

Nonetheless Qline, along with the rise of green zone Detroit, is creating a strong enough illusion that the Qline actually is stimulating development. Maybe carless in Detroit will become a possibility with a combination of ride sharing solutions like Uber and Lyt, [that GM just bought ] and pooled ownerships.

Thoughts?

[SammyS]

If today's Detroit boom is reminiscent of 80's NY, then we all know where the automobile is headed. In my opinion, more public transportation, driverless Taxis [[give it <10 years), bike routes and hoofing it to work.

[emu steve]

Megabucks developer Peter Cummings, son-in-law of the late billionaire Max M. Fisher, has announced the creation of a company called Platform with initial plans to created 1000 residential units that "will be within walking distance of the tracks. Cummings plans a mixture of rehabs and new construction. There will also be roughly 150,000 square feet of commercial space."

They will begin with the Fisher and Kahn buildings which he and his partners bought last year. As you may recall he also announced plans to build new residential units on W. Grand Blvd. It seems he is to be the Dan Gilbert of New Center.

Musing: I admit I don't 'get' the Qline. In a city and metropolis where life is very difficult without a car, to the point where everyone who can will own one. I ask myself, in a such a short stretch already overlapped by frequent bus lines, who will use the Qline other than special event situations or the few who will work, live and play there?

Nonetheless Qline, along with the rise of green zone Detroit, is creating a strong enough illusion that the Qline actually is stimulating development. Maybe carless in Detroit will become a possibility with a combination of ride sharing solutions like Uber and Lyt, [that GM just bought ] and pooled ownerships.

Thoughts?

I guess the idea is to build a 'niche city'.

By a 'niche city' I mean a VERY specific type resident.

Even for those with a car living anywhere between New Center and Downtown and working within the the same area an automobile can be more for the weekends, trips to the 'burbs for shopping, etc.

As I live in an area with excellent public transportation, I find it hard to believe but there were weekdays in which I never started my car. Public transportation to and from work. Read two newspapers on the way to work.

It go so 'bad' that the last years I worked, I put about 6 - 7K / year on my car and at least 1K was a thousand mile vacation trip.

To some folks that's highly desirable, esp. if the employer subsidizes public transportation.

Some folks would be in heaven walking two blocks and taking rapid transportation to work and read a newspaper along the way...

I also know folks who sit in a car 45 minutes to go 10 miles...

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Nonetheless Qline, along with the rise of green zone Detroit, is creating a strong enough illusion that the Qline actually is stimulating development. Maybe carless in Detroit will become a possibility with a combination of ride sharing solutions like Uber and Lyt, [that GM just bought ] and pooled ownerships.

Thoughts?

My first thought is that if Peter Cummings is planning on 1,000 units of new housing and specifically citing that they will all be within walking distance of the QLine, its not an "illusion" that the QLine is stimulating development.

As far as being carless goes, maybe its more likely that we will see a rise of one-car households?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opi...roit/84727840/

I was happy to see this in the article:

"Sensitive to concerns that Detroit’s neighborhoods are being neglected by investors enamored with the central city, Cummings says a second focus of The Platform is to help revive targeted commercial strips in the community. He’s selected three to start.
The Platform will help rebuild the devastated Brightmoor neighborhood. It will join strong efforts already underway to transform the area around the University of Detroit-Mercy. And it will engage in West English Village and Island View neighborhoods across from Belle Isle."

But seriously....."West English Village"?!?!?

[Honky Tonk]

Every day when I drive through the area with the three coliseums and think of game day, I wonder WTF would want to live in the middle of that cluster- _ _ _ _?

[Bham1982]

Every day when I drive through the area with the three coliseums and think of game day, I wonder WTF would want to live in the middle of that cluster- _ _ _ _?

The Fisher/Kahn Building owners aren't doing jack with their properties. They were trying to get a financing deal for a residential conversion over the last year, and have basically backed off. Fisher will remain office, for now. Don't believe me? Ask any downtown commercial RE broker.

And Cummings doesn't even own these properties. He's a minority investor of a New York-based outfit.

But, as usual, our local "news" reports the opposite. And, just to remove any shred of journalistic integrity, try and link a [[non) financing deal with the toonerville trolley. Reminds me of the population trend article a few days back.

At this point, you figure Putin is taking notes from our esteemed Freep/Detnews. I don't think the Kremlin can top our local truth-tellers.

[Bham1982]

As far as being carless goes, maybe its more likely that we will see a rise of one-car households?

30% of Detroit households have no cars, right now. Of course, no one cares about these folks. Too busy pleasuring themselves to the sweet promise of "Q Line".

[TTime]

The Q Line is quite possibly the dumbest and most short sighted public transit system I've heard of for a number of reasons but if this actually gets built and filled then it will be hard to argue that it hasn't helped create new development. The argument of course will be on behalf of those that already live in Detroit and are having a bitch of a time getting from their current home to their current job.

[Junjie]

30% of Detroit households have no cars, right now. Of course, no one cares about these folks. Too busy pleasuring themselves to the sweet promise of "Q Line".

Indeed. No one cares so much that they passed legislation, created the RTA, hired a CEO, developed a new master transit plan, and are going to ask the public specifically for funding for improved transit throughout the region this fall to the tune of $130 million per year.

Too bad that in addition to all that, there will be a downtown streetcar. Pretty terrible. Really shows the total lack of priorities.

[Honky Tonk]

Indeed. No one cares so much that they passed legislation, created the RTA, hired a CEO, developed a new master transit plan, and are going to ask the public specifically for funding for improved transit throughout the region this fall to the tune of $130 million per year.

Too bad that in addition to all that, there will be a downtown streetcar. Pretty terrible. Really shows the total lack of priorities.

And don't forget Ilitch's taxpayer funded coliseum created thousands of jobs too, that'll help pay for all that mass transit and those CEO salaries.

[mwilbert]

The Fisher/Kahn Building owners aren't doing jack with their properties. They were trying to get a financing deal for a residential conversion over the last year, and have basically backed off. Fisher will remain office, for now. Don't believe me? Ask any downtown commercial RE broker.

And Cummings doesn't even own these properties. He's a minority investor of a New York-based outfit.

But, as usual, our local "news" reports the opposite. And, just to remove any shred of journalistic integrity, try and link a [[non) financing deal with the toonerville trolley. Reminds me of the population trend article a few days back.

At this point, you figure Putin is taking notes from our esteemed Freep/Detnews. I don't think the Kremlin can top our local truth-tellers.

I have no specific knowledge of who is looking for what financing, but I have never gotten the impression from the press that there would be a near-term residential conversion at the Fisher. Even the quote in the original post doesn't give any kind of time frame. I'm not expecting to see anything meaningful until their proposed development at Third and Grand is completed. My guess is that their success [[or lack thereof) in financing and marketing those units will give them a lot better idea of the residential market up near Grand Blvd.

[Hypestyles]

I'll believe it when I see it, regarding any new redeveloped apartment buildings and new construction. If it happens, kudos.
I want to see the new planned apartments in Ferndale where the Save-A-Lot property is/was.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Some folks just can't accept good news. The QLine is demonstrably having a very positive effect on development in Detroit's center. And when ridership exceeds expectations- which it will- there will be a clamoring for more of the same further North on Woodward, and out Michigan, Gratiot, Jefferson and maybe Grand River, too. That will take a number of years, but Detroit light rail [[along with BRT) will transform the city neighborhoods it serves, and have a larger overall effect on the region. Well done, M1-Rail team. And thank you.

[Gistok]

I'm not going to play Miss Cleo the psychic like Bham1982 likes to do... but doesn't the DPS own 5 floors of office condo's in the Fisher Building? Might that cause complications with changing the use of other space in the building?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...roit/24382995/

[emu steve]

Some folks just can't accept good news. The QLine is demonstrably having a very positive effect on development in Detroit's center. And when ridership exceeds expectations- which it will- there will be a clamoring for more of the same further North on Woodward, and out Michigan, Gratiot, Jefferson and maybe Grand River, too. That will take a number of years, but Detroit light rail [[along with BRT) will transform the city neighborhoods it serves, and have a larger overall effect on the region. Well done, M1-Rail team. And thank you.

I'm repeating something I've posted before on this topic, but I'd guess Jefferson would be ideal.

QLine on Jefferson could have a stimulative effect on an area with real potential.

Instead of a 'grand design' to stimulate the entire city, I see more of a piece meal design to pick the low hanging fruit[[s) first [[downtown <--> new center) and then Jefferson.

It has the same design of connecting to the downtown. Guess that is a wheel-spoke design with folks funneled to and from downtown along busy corridors.

[mikeg19]

We will have to wait until an official announcement comes out, but any combination of 1,000 new residences in the area along the line is a huge boost in confidence that maybe this dumb thing might pan out someday. It might take 50 years to actually expand the system enough where we are running trains down major arteries out to the suburbs, but we have to start somewhere. There's going to be plenty of time to debate how the money could/should have been spent otherwise, but we can't deny there is already a lot of major development happening on the line and it isn't even operating yet.

[DeLemur]

Agreed Lowell.
Finley talks up the Q line and offers no quote from the developer on it's importance, it seems more an emphasis from Nolan than Cummings.

Will the Q have its own traffic signals? Really saddened to see it not have its own dedicated lane and be behest to traffic. Why not take the bus? Ah too help Detroit newbies skip that uncomfortable experience.

Would rather have seen 400 clean diesal buses for bus rapid transit taking Detroiters to suburban areas without buses like Livonia. Ask the walking man who walked to Troy for his factory job. Our metro region has the highest distances separating workers [[in Detroit) from suburban jobs. The Q doesn't make sense in this big picture.

[dtowncitylover]

Agreed Lowell.
Finley talks up the Q line and offers no quote from the developer on it's importance, it seems more an emphasis from Nolan than Cummings.

Will the Q have its own traffic signals? Really saddened to see it not have its own dedicated lane and be behest to traffic. Why not take the bus? Ah too help Detroit newbies skip that uncomfortable experience.

Would rather have seen 400 clean diesal buses for bus rapid transit taking Detroiters to suburban areas without buses like Livonia. Ask the walking man who walked to Troy for his factory job. Our metro region has the highest distances separating workers [[in Detroit) from suburban jobs. The Q doesn't make sense in this big picture.

If you want to see 400 clean diesel rapid transit buses then vote for the RTA millage in November.

M-1 Rail, like most streetcar systems, were built for and even to build up an urban landscape not for shuttling commuters over 20 miles. And buses aren't supposed to do that either. They're supposed to be feeders into a more concrete transit system backbone like metro, light rail, and bus rapid transit.

But, if you were to read any of the threads about transit you would probably get the answers to your questions.

[professorscott]

If you want to see 400 clean diesel rapid transit buses then vote for the RTA mileage in November.

M-1 Rail, like most streetcar systems, were built for and even to build up an urban landscape not for shuttling commuters over 20 miles. And buses aren't supposed to do that either. They're supposed to be feeders into a more concrete transit system backbone like metro, light rail, and bus rapid transit.

But, if you were to read any of the threads about transit you would probably get the answers to your questions.

Just so. QLine, like any city streetcar [[and like the 2000+ streetcars that plied the streets of Detroit in the 1920s) serves a specific purpose: transportation within its own corridor. The regional solution is something else again; the most important thing is that the two work together.

As I've said, whether BRT works well or not is buried in the details. I hope the millage passes and then I hope they plan something such that the "R" in BRT isn't a joke, but we'll see. If they put the M1 Rail folks in charge of the BRT buildout then I'll be much more optimistic.

[corktownyuppie]

This is no hit on the M-1 folk...the RTA guys are actually really impressive. I would have a high degree of confidence in their execution based on what I've seen so far.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

From Crains the other day


http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20160521/NEWS/160529957/owners-of-fisher-kahn-buildings-look-to-develop-underserved-areas-of

[Junjie]

I'm repeating something I've posted before on this topic, but I'd guess Jefferson would be ideal.

QLine on Jefferson could have a stimulative effect on an area with real potential.

Instead of a 'grand design' to stimulate the entire city, I see more of a piece meal design to pick the low hanging fruit[[s) first [[downtown <--> new center) and then Jefferson.

It has the same design of connecting to the downtown. Guess that is a wheel-spoke design with folks funneled to and from downtown along busy corridors.

Agreed and that's why it was exciting to see the east riverfront plan include provision for a streetcar extension as one of the requirements. Especially since BRT won't be on Jefferson, it'd be great to connect the riverfront and Belle Isle to downtown/midtown with the QLine.

[DeLemur]

If you want to see 400 clean diesel rapid transit buses then vote for the RTA millage in November.

M-1 Rail, like most streetcar systems, were built for and even to build up an urban landscape not for shuttling commuters over 20 miles. And buses aren't supposed to do that either. They're supposed to be feeders into a more concrete transit system backbone like metro, light rail, and bus rapid transit.

But, if you were to read any of the threads about transit you would probably get the answers to your questions.

Yeah that's why I said "The Q doesn't make sense in this big picture"
Sorry my forum reading isn't up to speed. I'll take that as a yes that Q won't have right of way. Really I don't get the need downtown either, but maybe I'm ignorant. Bus on rails huh? Makes a lot of sense. I'll take the bike, car or bus thanks not much stopping those modes right now.
Probably vote for RTA, we'll see what they unveil next week.

[southen]

Agreed and that's why it was exciting to see the east riverfront plan include provision for a streetcar extension as one of the requirements. Especially since BRT won't be on Jefferson, it'd be great to connect the riverfront and Belle Isle to downtown/midtown with the QLine.

I would like to see it go beyond Belle Isle all the way to Waterworks Park. You would really connect some existing and pretty populated neighborhoods that way and it could spur things like the Whittier redevelopment.

[emu steve]

I would like to see it go beyond Belle Isle all the way to Waterworks Park. You would really connect some existing and pretty populated neighborhoods that way and it could spur things like the Whittier redevelopment.

What I like about the hub and spokes [[is that the expression?) is that the spokes can later be extended if feasible.

One of the design consideration here and along Woodward is how to handle the initial terminus.

Should there be parking garages to encourage folks to drive to the garage and QL the rest of the way toward downtown OR simply assume the ridership will start and stop at the terminus[[es), essentially ridership will originate/terminate within the QL, itself, i.e., folks will not use multiple modes [[other than say foot) in their journey, i.e., won't drive, park, and then ride.