Here's a Novel Idea: Let's Raise Taxes!

[irish_mafia]

Governor backs taxes to help erase deficit

http://detnews.com/article/20090814/...-erase-deficit

Could someone please tie her up in a closet for the rest of her godforsaken term?

[Detroitnerd]

Waaaahhh! I don't want to pay taxes!

Waaaahhh! I want more and better government services!

Waaaahhh! I want to make more money!

Waaaahhh! Unions are ruining everything by demanding more money!

Waaaahhh! Government is the enemy!

Waaaahhh! I want my mail delivered on time!

Waaaahhh! I'm sick of supporting people who don't work!

Waaaahhh! I want my unemployment extended.

Waaaahhh! Waaaahhh! Waaaahhh! Waaaahhh! Waaaahhh!

[irish_mafia]

Keep crying. Businesses don't want to locate here because of this and that means tax "revenues" will continue to be reduced. Which of course will mean that Jen Jen and detroitNerd's ilk will cointinue to call for higher tax "rates" on those evil "fill in the blank" that don't want to pay their fair share which of course will cause businesses and individuals to go more attractive states which of course will cause tax "revenues' to fall which of coyurse will cause the next idiotic liberal politician to call for tax "rate" increases....

keep crying

[Detroitnerd]

Waaaahh! Waaahh! I want two things that are diametrically opposed to each other! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

[irish_mafia]

You are getting exactly what you ask for. Enjoy the 20% unemployment,,,and as the rest of the country starts to crawl out of the brief recession that they have endured in the coming months Michigan and Detroit will enter their 6th year of recession/depression poised to go further down the tubes on the policies that you apparently advocate.

In the movie Young Frankenstein, the monster was refitted with an abnormal brain... for some, that would be an improvement.

[Detroitnerd]

Waaahhh! I want better roads! Waaahhh! I want better infrastructure! Waaahhh! I don't want to pay a penny more in taxes! Waaahhh! I want more business in the state! Waaahhh! I want more police and better fire coverage! Waaahhh! I don't want to pay for it! Waaahhh! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

[DetroitPlanner]

Maybe we should merge this with the "Why can't Detroit be more like Chicago" thread? After all, Chicago has some outragous taxes, certainly higher than what is being proposed by the Guv.

[MCP-001]

Waaahhh! I want better roads! Waaahhh! I want better infrastructure! Waaahhh! I don't want to pay a penny more in taxes! Waaahhh! I want more business in the state! Waaahhh! I want more police and better fire coverage! Waaahhh! I don't want to pay for it! Waaahhh! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

Detroitnerd, your ignorance is astounding.

Want to take a wild guess as to why people are leaving Michigan in droves and revenue is falling in Lansing.

We'd all like to hear why making it more of a disincentive is beneficial?

[Detroitnerd]

Waaaahhh! I don't want to spend any of my precious money on infrastructure! Waaahhh! As long as I get to hold onto my money I don't care what happens to the region! Waaahhh! Why aren't businesses willing to locate here? Waaahhh! I don't care about anybody else as long as I have my money! Waaahhh! People and businesses are leaving Michigan! Waaahhh! It must be because of taxes! Waaahhh! How dare they ask for more money! Waaahhh! I want everything to be just like it was before taxes and labor unions! Waaahhh! I want my Internet! Waaahhh! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

[Detroitnerd]

Waaahhh! I want Michigan to be a great state full of business! Waaahhh! I don't want to pay any money to the state! Waaahhh! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

[Stosh]

Other states have far more punitive tax structures. What she's proposing isn't that draconian.

From the article:

• Levy the 6 percent sales tax on tickets to concerts, athletic events and other entertainment to raise $87 million. She would also slap the sales tax on appliance service contracts and vending machine purchases to generate nearly $30 million.

How does this drive off business to other states? Explain your thinking.

• Raise the cigarette tax, one of the highest in the nation at $2 a pack, to $2.25 to yield $54 million. The tax on other tobacco products would be doubled, bringing in $45 million.

I suppose you could drive to Ohio, or quit smoking. Either way, you's taxed for your trouble anyway. What's a quarter between friends?

• Put a one-cent tax on bottled water, raising $17 million.

I agree totally with this concept. Raise it to 5 cents a bottle. Really. The bottes alone are a drain on our landfill space. Bottled water is the biggest scam, ever.

• Cut the 42 percent movie production credit, the most generous in the nation, by 12 percent to save about $8 million. Republicans have proposed much more drastic cuts to the film credit.

Now THIS is the funny part. Republicans [[read conservatives) are proposing even MORE drastic cuts to this, therefore sending jobs out of state. And raising taxes!!! EEK! Christ.

• Trim the earned income tax credit for low-income families from 20 percent to 15 percent, an $83 million savings.

Yep, that's gonna hurt you guys all right. Wow.

• Close a number of business tax loopholes.

Well, maybe this one will hurt, a little.

Tell you what. how about a .5 sales tax on food? Think that's fair?

[irish_mafia]

MCP, I am not sure if DN is a recipient of tax dollars for employment [[or unemeployment) and thus emotionally unable to detach from the notion of cutting expenses or is just a bit unhinfged today, but the attempts to address a simple topic like making he state and the city more attractive for investment seem to be beyond coherent discussion.

[Hardhat]

Actually, I think the Nerd wraps things up pretty well.
People aren't leaving Michigan in droves [[are they? how are they selling their houses?) and revenue isn't falling in Lansing because excessive taxes are scaring away industry. The flat-lined auto industry has everything to do with that.
I'm not sure raising taxes is the answer for Michigan. But cutting taxes like crazy and making us into Michisippi isn't the answer, either.

[irish_mafia]

Stosh,

Which of these components do you think will atttract new business to the State and/or keep people from leaving?

[Detroitnerd]

Waaahhh! I don't want my tax dollars going to wasteful social programs! Waaahhh! I don't want to help the poor with my hard-earned money! Waaahhh! Poor people are stealing stuff to survive! Waaahhh! I want more police! Waaahh! I don't want to pay for more police! Waaahhh! We should do something important with the money, like pay corporations to move into the state! Waaahhh! I don't want to pay for that, though! Waaahhh! Waaahhh! Waaahhh! Anybody who disagrees with me must just want my money! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

[irish_mafia]

HH, Have you looked at Detroit lately? Mississippi was passed on the downhill slope a long time ago.
In regards to your other assumptions, what planet have you been living on? They are leaving in droves and their houses are selling at huge discounts or being foreclosed. Nobody in this country wants to do business in this State or the City of Detroit because of our reputation for high taxes, union thuggery,overall high costs of doing business and the lawleessness that gets dai;ly press for detroit. We are a laughing stock.
It's like the Emporer not knowing he is naked

[Detroitnerd]

Waaahhh! This state is terrible! Waaahhh! I don't want to pay to fix it! Waaahhh! We need more better paying jobs with benefits! Waaahhh! We've got to get rid of labor unions! Waaahh! People are laughing at us! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

[MCP-001]

MCP, I am not sure if DN is a recipient of tax dollars for employment [[or unemeployment) and thus emotionally unable to detach from the notion of cutting expenses or is just a bit unhinfged today, but the attempts to address a simple topic like making he state and the city more attractive for investment seem to be beyond coherent discussion.

I'm not sure which it is myself.

But based upon DN's "insightful" responses so far, I'm just going to chalk it up to DN being a troll and leave it at that.

[Detroitnerd]

Waaaahhh! I want a better state but I don't want to pay for it! Waaahhh! I want people to take me seriously! Waaahhh! Why would anybody tease me! Waaahhh! Waaahhh!

[irish_mafia]

• Levy the 6 percent sales tax on tickets to concerts, athletic events and other entertainment to raise $87 million. She would also slap the sales tax on appliance service contracts and vending machine purchases to generate nearly $30 million. "How does this drive off business to other states? Explain your thinking." Higher prices because of the additional tax will actually drive down business at these events as people hit a tipping point reducing revenues for the events, the restraunts, the hotels, the parking lots and the assumed additional $30Mil will actually be less because they used a static tax model that assuned peoiple would just pay the higher price.


Quote:
• Raise the cigarette tax, one of the highest in the nation at $2 a pack, to $2.25 to yield $54 million. The tax on other tobacco products would be doubled, bringing in $45 million.
"I suppose you could drive to Ohio, or quit smoking. Either way, you's taxed for your trouble anyway. What's a quarter between friends?" Actually a quarter is huge to the population that smokes which is the lowest income population in our society being taxed "once again" for their "sins".


Quote:
• Put a one-cent tax on bottled water, raising $17 million.
"I agree totally with this concept. Raise it to 5 cents a bottle. Really. The bottes alone are a drain on our landfill space. Bottled water is the biggest scam, ever. " The same tipping point arguments apply here as well. I have shifted mostly to Moosehead water bottles with tap water to avoid paying for bottled water. You may say this great because we get rid of the plastic in the landfills...but that is not the goal of the tax...it is to raise revenue...again based on a static model that doesn't assume people will change their behavior by it. How many jobs will be affecyted by the reduced buiness for the bottle water companies? They of course don't want to think about that.


Quote:
• Cut the 42 percent movie production credit, the most generous in the nation, by 12 percent to save about $8 million. Republicans have proposed much more drastic cuts to the film credit.
"Now THIS is the funny part. Republicans [[read conservatives) are proposing even MORE drastic cuts to this, therefore sending jobs out of state. And raising taxes!!! EEK! Christ. "

This is the only one I don't understand. Is the original model for credits cash positive or not for the state? If it is, leave it alone, it is building an industry and is a model that would well be worth following for other industries including distribution and fulfillment where we might be able to use some of our illitearte population from the city and unskilled laborers who no longer have a manufacturing base to go to for a job.


Quote:
• Trim the earned income tax credit for low-income families from 20 percent to 15 percent, an $83 million savings.
"Yep, that's gonna hurt you guys all right. Wow. " It appears that this hits the tipping point on the other side now: My first impression is that this takes a family on the brink and kick them over the edge so they end up needing even more assistance but I don't know enough about this.


Quote:
• Close a number of business tax loopholes.
"Well, maybe this one will hurt, a little." and this encouragesme to do business here how?

"Tell you what. how about a .5 sales tax on food? Think that's fair?" No

[Stosh]

Stosh,

Which of these components do you think will atttract new business to the State and/or keep people from leaving?

Frankly, at this point, it's not about that. We need to realistically look at solvency in the state. Fair and adequate funding for cities, police and fire. Things that MATTER. Business attraction didn't happen during Engler's term in office. Not happening now, either.

All of these tax restructurings are business neutral, for the most part. This is also aimed at closing the 22 percent surcharge on the Michigan Business Tax, which isn't helpful to business.

The whole point is that people are leaving because there are no jobs here. There are no jobs here because of [[supposedly) piss poor busness attraction. You can't attract new businesses, or steal some other state's business, without tax incentives. Once you plop tax incentives down, you are out of money again, unable to attract new businesses. Another economic downturn, back to no jobs again.

The state needs to right size. There are opportunities to save money. Bishop's plan would save money. No one will float a bill. Sad.

[Stosh]

Higher prices because of the additional tax will actually drive down business at these events as people hit a tipping point reducing revenues for the events, the restraunts, the hotels, the parking lots and the assumed additional $30Mil will actually be less because they used a static tax model that assuned peoiple would just pay the higher price.

Christ. You really need to learn how to use the quote function here, really.

You really think that the tipping point hasn't been reached yet? I think that people will, for the most part, still go there. It's not a deal breaker. And it's voluntary. Noone forces you to go to these games, or shows. I think they still will, if disposable income is there.

Actually a quarter is huge to the population that smokes which is the lowest income population in our society being taxed "once again" for their "sins".

That's their choice. It is, a free country, after all. No sympathy from me on this one.

The same tipping point arguments apply here as well. I have shifted mostly to Moosehead water bottles with tap water to avoid paying for bottled water. You may say this great because we get rid of the plastic in the landfills...but that is not the goal of the tax...it is to raise revenue...again based on a static model that doesn't assume people will change their behavior by it. How many jobs will be affecyted by the reduced buiness for the bottle water companies? They of course don't want to think about that.

People will buy it anyway. It won't cost a single job. It will just raise the price of water, where the profit margin is already so absurd it's not funny. Let them eat it. For what they do to the water table in some counties here, they deserve it.

This is the only one I don't understand. Is the original model for credits cash positive or not for the state? If it is, leave it alone, it is building an industry and is a model that would well be worth following for other industries including distribution and fulfillment where we might be able to use some of our illitearte population from the city and unskilled laborers who no longer have a manufacturing base to go to for a job.

It's cash positive. From no industry to a blooming industry, it's a no-brainer. Keep it as it is. Illitearte?

It appears that this hits the tipping point on the other side now: My first impression is that this takes a family on the brink and kick them over the edge so they end up needing even more assistance but I don't know enough about this

.


I suppose so. That's a point that some may debate, particularily on the conservative sites. The state earned income credit was designed to be similar to the federal earned income credit. Thing is, can we afford to do this?

• Close a number of business tax loopholes.
"Well, maybe this one will hurt, a little." and this encourages me to do business here how?

See the above circular logic. There's no win. Any time you cut taxes for business, you cut other people's throats, namely social services, cities, et al.

"Tell you what. how about a .5 sales tax on food? Think that's fair?" No

Tell me why.

[lafayette]

Detroitnerd, you are RIGHT on.

[Novine]

The personal income tax rate today is lower than what we paid when Engler is Governor. Commercial and Industrial properties were given a huge property tax cut in 2007. Irish claims there's a direct connection between tax rates and tax cuts and economic activity. It's clear from those two points that there's little or no proof that tax policy has had any significant impact on Michigan's economy.

[Patrick]

Irish claims there's a direct connection between tax rates and tax cuts and economic activity. It's clear from those two points that there's little or no proof that tax policy has had any significant impact on Michigan's economy.

Then why aren't we attracting the number of businesses that places such as Atlanta and Houston attract? Companies aren't exaclty lining up to come here unless they get a phone call from Obama [[GE).