Honest Ads About Detroit's Transit System Pulled Because They Hurt People's Feelings

[313WX]

While the reason in the title wasn't expressed verbatim, it's more or less the only thing you can conclude from those who voiced their complaints

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...lled/84383906/

[Hypestyles]

The overall status of mass transit in SE Michigan isn't very good. It's a moot point to defend every individual system to the utmost. Overall, things are lacking, drastically.

[daddeeo]

How can you have a healthy view of anything when you advocate censorship?
If your service or company deserves public trust, you should welcome and debate others who don't share your position.

[Honky Tonk]

__________________________________________________ _

[Wesley Mouch]

Letter from advocates quoted in newspaper:

...demoralizes a service that is largely underfunded. It also comes at a time when regional transit officials are gearing up to ask voters this fall to pony up for various transportation improvements.

If you are underfunded, the first thing you do is adjust your service to your funding. You know your operating cost per mile [[or whatever metric), and you know that you have achieved a reasonable level of efficiency in your operations.

In other words, you do your best with what you have been given. You don't try to deliver more than you can. And if you have to cut lines/hours/staff, etc -- then you do. And you then tell the voters and your City what you need to restore those lines.

What you don't do is limp along -- just accepting bad equipment condition. Refusing to modernize operations. And just blaming your 'funding'.

You might also consider allowing others to step in and do what you can't do. Encourage private jitneys. Encourage Uber and its kin. Be innovative.

I am frankly tired of hearing that all we need to do is 'pony up'. [[Although in this case, I do support increasing funding for transportation.) But I'm not so sure that funding should go to the existing providers unless they can make their operations efficient within their existing funding. If you can't do that, why should anyone think more money fixes anything.

[Danny]

I wonder Trainman and The TRU gang are behind the anti-public transit scheme?

[SDCC]

The spokesman on the YouTube channel for A Coalition For Transit is Dennis Archer Jr. In the video, in which Archer speaks about regional transit, he is describing a quad-county public transportation system. Linking Washtenaw, Macomb, Oakland and Wayne counties is forward thinking, but somewhat unrealistic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRSK7AdqUqc

The Free Press article that the Detroit News gives a snapshot of, actually states: “At the turn of the 20th Century, southeast Michigan had the largest and one of the best mass transit systems in the country. Today, we have one of the worst.” The story is divided into three parts, subway, streetcars and buses. The article takes a long swing down memory lane – another rose colored glasses story – discussing transportation back at the turn of the century, and several proposals of a hypothetical subway system. There are snapshots [[2) of James Robinson; the man that walked 21 miles to work, and the link provides a video of Robinson telling his story.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...nsit/22926133/

There is a video on the same channel discussing special needs transportation. This certainly needs more funding.

I ride DDOT when I need to get around; for the most part the buses I ride arrive on time – relatively speaking. DDOT, like many cities, has a variety of buses, ranging from ancient to modern.
Occasionally I need to jump on a Smart bus; if I use a DDOT transfer, it’s a .50 charge. The SMART buses that I do use could run a little more often each hour.
I’m not sure what metric is being used to place Detroit “one of the worst cities for regional transportation”? If they are referring a bus starting in East Point and traveling all the way to Ann Arbor, I would evaluate the distance versus demand.

[dtowncitylover]

Letter from advocates quoted in newspaper:
If you are underfunded, the first thing you do is adjust your service to your funding. You know your operating cost per mile [[or whatever metric), and you know that you have achieved a reasonable level of efficiency in your operations.

In other words, you do your best with what you have been given. You don't try to deliver more than you can. And if you have to cut lines/hours/staff, etc -- then you do. And you then tell the voters and your City what you need to restore those lines.

What you don't do is limp along -- just accepting bad equipment condition. Refusing to modernize operations. And just blaming your 'funding'.

You might also consider allowing others to step in and do what you can't do. Encourage private jitneys. Encourage Uber and its kin. Be innovative.

I am frankly tired of hearing that all we need to do is 'pony up'. [[Although in this case, I do support increasing funding for transportation.) But I'm not so sure that funding should go to the existing providers unless they can make their operations efficient within their existing funding. If you can't do that, why should anyone think more money fixes anything.

How are SMART and DDOT supposed to modernize without funding? Metro Detroit is, I believe, the largest metro area that spends the least on its public transportation. [[The GOP mantra of underfunding a government program and then blaming "big government" when it doesn't work, so they can finish it off with support from the taxpayer who was duped into believing it didn't work when all it needed was proper funding).

[Wesley Mouch]

How are SMART and DDOT supposed to modernize without funding? Metro Detroit is, I believe, the largest metro area that spends the least on its public transportation. [[The GOP mantra of underfunding a government program and then blaming "big government" when it doesn't work, so they can finish it off with support from the taxpayer who was duped into believing it didn't work when all it needed was proper funding).

If 'all it needed was proper funding', then funding would solve the problem. And in that case, finding the taxpayer monies to fund a good program makes good sense.

I can't speak to SMART, but DDOT has both a funding problem and an operational/administrative problem. Solving funding by itself does nothing. Funding does not fix administrative problems. It just papers them over.

DDOT is not unfunded -- just underfunded. They can and should be using more of their limited funds to rehabilitation themselves, and less to maintaining the current, seemingly dysfunctional system.

Sure, there are some in the GOP that might hold those beliefs, but there are also others who just don't want to pour money into a sewer -- preferring to find good uses that produce improvements.

[Enduro]

Do buses have bootstraps?

[professorscott]

I’m not sure what metric is being used to place Detroit “one of the worst cities for regional transportation”?

Wow, take your pick. Transit vehicles per hour per capita, funding per capita, percent of jobs available within 1/4 mile of transit, miles of rapid transit per anything; if I had time I could probably come up with a half-dozen more. Travel to almost any big urban area on Earth and compare their transit to Detroit, the city or the region, and ours will be worse than nearly every one.

By the way: I did not say "every one", I said "nearly every one". I'm sure there is some city somewhere on the planet that manages, somehow, to be even worse at this than we are.

[Gistok]

You might also consider allowing others to step in and do what you can't do. Encourage private jitneys. Encourage Uber and its kin. Be innovative.

You do realize that you cannot get Uber and its' kin without a computer or a SmartPhone.... you can't just pick up a landline telephone to get it....

[corktownyuppie]

If 'all it needed was proper funding', then funding would solve the problem. And in that case, finding the taxpayer monies to fund a good program makes good sense.

I can't speak to SMART, but DDOT has both a funding problem and an operational/administrative problem. Solving funding by itself does nothing. Funding does not fix administrative problems. It just papers them over.

DDOT is not unfunded -- just underfunded. They can and should be using more of their limited funds to rehabilitation themselves, and less to maintaining the current, seemingly dysfunctional system.

Sure, there are some in the GOP that might hold those beliefs, but there are also others who just don't want to pour money into a sewer -- preferring to find good uses that produce improvements.

I agree that DDOT has historically been underfunded.
I also agree that DDOT has historically taken 70 cents on the dollar and given us a 30 cent product.

It's one thing to be dealt a bad hand. It's another take that hand and play it in the worst way possible.

I digress.

I believe that the Regional Transit Authority will have final say over how the money is spent, and I have a higher degree of confidence in them than I do in either SMART or DDOT.

[Wesley Mouch]

You do realize that you cannot get Uber and its' kin without a computer or a SmartPhone.... you can't just pick up a landline telephone to get it....

Of course. I've no idea what you're getting at. Not every service is the same, or should they be.

[Gistok]

Of course. I've no idea what you're getting at. Not every service is the same, or should they be.

Detroiters using DDOT.... you telling them to be innovative.... at current prices would they be likely to afford having a SmartPhone to use one of your suggested alternatives? Your comment came across in a "let them eat cake" way...

[archfan]

Do buses have bootstraps?

They secure riders who stand.

[Wesley Mouch]

Detroiters using DDOT.... you telling them to be innovative.... at current prices would they be likely to afford having a SmartPhone to use one of your suggested alternatives? Your comment came across in a "let them eat cake" way...

Ah, thanks. Didn't intend to be pushing online services, just alternatives. Was thinking more jitney than Uber. Don't see why DDOT needs a monopoly is all.

Thanks.

[Hypestyles]

we'll see... I doubt that the millage will pass based on the volumes of people who hate the idea of buses in general, especially going through "their" neighborhoods.

[river rat]

DDOT and funding for public transit really are not the problem because DDOT is not primarily a transit system; it is a jobs program. As soon as people realize this fact they will really recognize how the ads hurt the workers feelings. Detroit and the Feds are wasting millions on a 1920's streetcar line to nowhere, just as the people mover wasted money and transported almost no one.

Across the US, many other transit systems are the same; they are jobs programs run by quasi-governments. Because they are government run, they get huge subsidies to pay exorbitant wages with outrageous benefits. Case in point; Washington Metro Rail has incurred an unfunded pension liability of One BILLION dollars in its short 35 year existence. Combine that with their well-documented service and safety deficiencies and it is clear that a Governmentally controlled system is incapable of managing almost anything, least of all a transportation system [[think TSA, Amtrak, the Veterans Administration, etc. ad infinitum).

Is there a solution. Well, maybe in an Alice in Wonderland world but not this world. Private enterprise would be capable if they were not hobbled be incredible regulations, dogged by lawsuits [[governments are largely shielded from lawsuits) due to individuals lack of personal responsibility, labor contracts dictated be many jurisdictions, and a myriad of other 'restrictors' placed on businesses in this country. If you do not know what these are, you are part of the problem.


So just keep on payin' those taxes and fares for incompetent management and poor services and feel good that you are providing jobs for those who would not otherwise find jobs.


The River Rat

[swingline]

Wow, take your pick. Transit vehicles per hour per capita, funding per capita, percent of jobs available within 1/4 mile of transit, miles of rapid transit per anything; if I had time I could probably come up with a half-dozen more. Travel to almost any big urban area on Earth and compare their transit to Detroit, the city or the region, and ours will be worse than nearly every one.

By the way: I did not say "every one", I said "nearly every one". I'm sure there is some city somewhere on the planet that manages, somehow, to be even worse at this than we are.

Yes, we certainly don't invest enough per capita on transit in Michigan. One thing that DDOT could easily do to improve its revenue situation is raise fares. $1.50 fare is about the lowest in the country. Over age 65 fare is $.75. Both fares should be increased by at least 1/3. Many Detroiters are poor. But so are many folks in Chicago, New York and Philadelphia where bus fares are $2.00 or more.

[313WX]

...As soon as people realize this fact they will really recognize how the ads hurt the workers feelings...

I think any reasonable person knows the message in the ad wasn't directed towards the workers.

But in any event, to folks like Melissa Roy, I say "tough cookies" and "grow up" The truth sometimes hurts. Instead of crying like a big baby about people telling you that you shit stinks when you know it stinks, you should be focusing your energy on cleaning up your shit.

[Wesley Mouch]

I think any reasonable person knows the message in the ad wasn't directed towards the workers.

But in any event, to folks like Melissa Roy, I say "tough cookies" and "grow up" The truth sometimes hurts. Instead of crying like a big baby about people telling you that you shit stinks when you know it stinks, you should be focusing your energy on cleaning up your shit.

I wouldn't be surprised if the workers like the ad. Sometimes you need someone to speak plainly. See Trump/Sanders.

People's 'feelings' are overrated. I'd rather have hurt feelings if we can get better bus service.

[RO_Resident]

Is there a solution. Well, maybe in an Alice in Wonderland world but not this world. Private enterprise would be capable if they were not hobbled be incredible regulations, dogged by lawsuits [[governments are largely shielded from lawsuits) due to individuals lack of personal responsibility, labor contracts dictated be many jurisdictions, and a myriad of other 'restrictors' placed on businesses in this country. If you do not know what these are, you are part of the problem.


So just keep on payin' those taxes and fares for incompetent management and poor services and feel good that you are providing jobs for those who would not otherwise find jobs.


The River Rat

Dammit, where are the Galts when we need one. They will know how to solve the issues.

Just let the Cintras and the Macquaries of the world do their job. Come on, who needs eminent domain? Property costs just get in the way of efficient transportation. Just Compensation? You will get nothing, you lose, good day sir!

You want to get paid for your work? Too bad, what do you think this is, a jobs program? There is plenty of company script due to you at the end of your day. Provided you don't break too may of the rules.

Ruinous ruiners ruin it for everyone.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-to...tcy-1456958991
http://www.nwitimes.com/business/tra...1ce03caf8.html

And my personal favorite, your toll road not generating enough traffic [[aka revenue)? Start closing competing free roads to funnel the traffic to your facility as outlined in your concession agreement.
http://www.omegacentre.bartlett.ucl....EY_PROFILE.pdf

[professorscott]

Yes, we certainly don't invest enough per capita on transit in Michigan. One thing that DDOT could easily do to improve its revenue situation is raise fares. $1.50 fare is about the lowest in the country. Over age 65 fare is $.75. Both fares should be increased by at least 1/3. Many Detroiters are poor. But so are many folks in Chicago, New York and Philadelphia where bus fares are $2.00 or more.

You could do that, but it wouldn't get you very far, for two reasons:

1. Elasticity of demand - if you raise the fares, the number of trips will go down. Not by a huge amount - most people who ride DDOT are transit dependent - but it will go down.

2. Detroit only gets a small fraction of its revenue from the farebox, I think it is something like 16% of the total budget. So if you raise fares from, let's say, $1.50 to $2.00 which is a 33% increase, you only increase the top line by a little over 5%, which brings the system from being one of the most underfunded in the developed world, to still being one of the most underfunded in the developed world. And that 5% increase is based on the false assumption that my first point is incorrect; in reality it will be somewhat less than 5%.

[swingline]

You could do that, but it wouldn't get you very far, for two reasons:

1. Elasticity of demand - if you raise the fares, the number of trips will go down. Not by a huge amount - most people who ride DDOT are transit dependent - but it will go down.

2. Detroit only gets a small fraction of its revenue from the farebox, I think it is something like 16% of the total budget. So if you raise fares from, let's say, $1.50 to $2.00 which is a 33% increase, you only increase the top line by a little over 5%, which brings the system from being one of the most underfunded in the developed world, to still being one of the most underfunded in the developed world. And that 5% increase is based on the false assumption that my first point is incorrect; in reality it will be somewhat less than 5%.

Professor, your points are well taken. I'm aware that a 33% fare increase would only help DDOT's bottom line in a relatively small way. But I also don't think that ridership would be affected more than minimally. The bottom line is that DDOT's farebox recovery rate is nearly the lowest of all major US cities. For the most part, only very small cities, the kind that provide services like free on-call van rides to senior citizens, have lower rates. Detroiters have no reason not to contribute at the farebox like residents residing in peer cities. If we're asking for subsidies from other sources, especially federal and state sources, we should be paying what other folks pay. Even if it only modestly improves the budget numbers.