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  1. #51

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    DG quoted from the MLS announcement just prior to the DDA approval: "Downtown is out of room. Expansion will now be vertical."

    I would slightly disagree with that, as there are still some surface lots and other areas (Foxtown) that could see development on vacant parcels, but for the most part, he is right. Immediate downtown CDB is basically out of room, so either you go up or start moving out into Midtown, Corktown, New Center with new buildings.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg19 View Post
    DG quoted from the MLS announcement just prior to the DDA approval: "Downtown is out of room. Expansion will now be vertical."

    I would slightly disagree with that, as there are still some surface lots and other areas (Foxtown) that could see development on vacant parcels, but for the most part, he is right. Immediate downtown CDB is basically out of room, so either you go up or start moving out into Midtown, Corktown, New Center with new buildings.
    If this IS indeed true, someone should tell that to the Statler block development folks.

  3. #53

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    Interesting. I interpret what he means as-- the buildings are essentially fully occupied. He's restored and put tenants in so many old buildings. Now its time for infill, and the infill should be vertical. I applaud this very much.

    No doubt we have too many surface parking lots which need to go bye-bye. The goal must be to create density and an outstanding street feel as we build. I trust Gilbert and a handful of others on that. I do not trust Olympia.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSUguy View Post
    Not necessarily it all depends on how you build it. Compuware and One Detroit Center are are similar in total size around one million sq ft, but very different in height. With residential you can build on much smaller floor plans. 432 Park and Central Park Tower are great examples of very tall and very narrow buildings. 432 is less than half the size of the ones in Detroit..
    IMO, projects like 432 Park are uniquely Manhattan-esque, and would be difficult to imagine as commercially viable in a city like Detroit---where land is so inexpensive & plentiful, it's basically at a surplus. "Skinny skyscrapers" like 432 are expensive to engineer/construct and can serve only one purpose: residential. The square footage on each floor is too small for more profitable mass commercial leases. Allegedly, some wealthy potential owners even passed on 432, because (despite the view), the square footage of one floor was far too small to meet their needs.

    The required pricing for each residence in order to pay for such a costly project would be a tough sell in the Detroit real estate market---actually in any market outside of a handful of US cities.

    Another footnote regarding 432 Park is that it is currently the tallest building in the US. Like many other skyscrapers, One World Trade & Willis (former Sears) "cheat" by including the spire (non occupy-able space) in the total height of the building. Willis is 1,354 to the top floor, 432 Park is 1,396.

  5. #55

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    So is there any official word on floor count? I suppose if there is a total square footage one could use the lot size to give an estimate.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybridy View Post
    the city spent $12 million to demolish hudsons and $28M to construct the garage - total investment $40M. wonder how much revenue the city has from parking fees thus far? the city is still $25M in the red and loses all future parking revenue with this deal. how are tax payers not getting screwed?
    City did what it had to do to maintain the property as the owner at that point. By the time it was demolished, Hudson's was a death trap waiting to happen. My dad was DFD working at Squad 2 behind the Fox during the 90s and he said the only building that would flat out terrify him if they had to respond to a fire was Hudson's.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by EL Jimbo View Post
    City did what it had to do to maintain the property as the owner at that point. By the time it was demolished, Hudson's was a death trap waiting to happen. My dad was DFD working at Squad 2 behind the Fox during the 90s and he said the only building that would flat out terrify him if they had to respond to a fire was Hudson's.
    While imploding Hudson's was heartbreaking for those of us who both remembered the shopping experience and loved the massive, beautiful old building, it was necessary on so many levels. The city could not afford to maintain it in any form, really. It was both a physical danger as El Jimbo noted; and a gigantic, decaying, graffiti-covered, pigeon and rat infested sign of failure, abandonment and blight. Much of what has happened since downtown would have been prevented by the former Hudson's. Sadly, if the building were around today, with today's market conditions, it would have a future (AMAZING LOFT APARTMENTS). In reality, though, today's market conditions could not have come into existence with the 28-story monument to blight in the middle of downtown. I don't know how much money has been lost on the site by the city; but nothing could have been gained had Hudson's remained.

  8. #58

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    Huh? What are you two talking about? Hudson's was in no more danger of collapse than were either the MCS or United Artists Buildings.... both of which were in abandon mode for much longer than was Hudson's. It was built to last.

    The reason that firemen wouldn't want to deal with Hudson's is that each floor was about 2 acres in size, a maze of building additions, and you were often nearly 100 ft from the nearest window (for emergency exit). At the MCS, a building in worse shape, you're never more than 30 ft. from the nearest window. So yeah firemen wouldn't want to deal with a building with such a huge footprint and labyrinth-like interior. But that had nothing to do with the buildings condition.
    Last edited by Gistok; May-03-16 at 02:07 AM.

  9. #59

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    If Gilbert erect this ugly-looking skyscraper and now one occupies it. It would be his greatest architectural blunder in Detroit history.

  10. #60

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    I'm not understanding why the purchase of the underground parking garage was a point of contention, causing a delay in the property being turned over to Dan Gilbert. Wasn't it agreed upon over a year ago that Dan Gilbert was going to develop the Hudson's site? He was supposed to make an announcement as to what was going to be built there at the end of the year: 2015. Shouldn't the parking garage asking price been arranged and approved sooner than now? Just my two cents.

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by royce View Post
    I'm not understanding why the purchase of the underground parking garage was a point of contention, causing a delay in the property being turned over to Dan Gilbert. Wasn't it agreed upon over a year ago that Dan Gilbert was going to develop the Hudson's site? He was supposed to make an announcement as to what was going to be built there at the end of the year: 2015. Shouldn't the parking garage asking price been arranged and approved sooner than now? Just my two cents.
    And along those lines, he knew it was just a matter of time before the negotiation would be done so why isn't the design and construction ready to go instead of another year from now?

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by royce View Post
    I'm not understanding why the purchase of the underground parking garage was a point of contention, causing a delay in the property being turned over to Dan Gilbert. Wasn't it agreed upon over a year ago that Dan Gilbert was going to develop the Hudson's site? He was supposed to make an announcement as to what was going to be built there at the end of the year: 2015. Shouldn't the parking garage asking price been arranged and approved sooner than now? Just my two cents.
    It has been my speculation, and something heard from a former SHOP architect, that they were having some serious design issues which caused the delay. I would venture a guess that Dan was still tinkering around with it and what would actually go there outside of the residential component. The garage negotiation could have acted as pretty good cover for his indecisiveness on what should go there. You don't want the public thinking that you are struggling with the design when you have pumped up how important the site is and how ground breaking the building will be.

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by southen View Post
    It has been my speculation, and something heard from a former SHOP architect, that they were having some serious design issues which caused the delay. I would venture a guess that Dan was still tinkering around with it and what would actually go there outside of the residential component. The garage negotiation could have acted as pretty good cover for his indecisiveness on what should go there. You don't want the public thinking that you are struggling with the design when you have pumped up how important the site is and how ground breaking the building will be.
    Good architecture can come from the debates of an architect and an engaged client. My fear is that Gilbert is trying to inject his sense of style into SHOP's design and, well, we've seen the evidence of his sense of style around town. Bless his heart.

  14. #64

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    Let't just state this: architectural beauty is subjective. That's the great part about architecture. Everyone has their own opinion about what quantifies as beauty, just as DG does. Yes, there have been some "questionable" interior design elements in his buildings that kinda make you ask what they were thinking. But I think leaving the design elements with SHoP and giving them an outline of what he envisions, we will come up with something that may not be universally loved, but much debated. However, my fear is that he is trying to inject himself too much into the design and is tinkering. Either way, we are going to end up with a landmark building that will be critiqued for years to come, good or bad.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onthe405 View Post
    IMO, projects like 432 Park are uniquely Manhattan-esque, and would be difficult to imagine as commercially viable in a city like Detroit---where land is so inexpensive & plentiful, it's basically at a surplus. "Skinny skyscrapers" like 432 are expensive to engineer/construct and can serve only one purpose: residential. The square footage on each floor is too small for more profitable mass commercial leases. Allegedly, some wealthy potential owners even passed on 432, because (despite the view), the square footage of one floor was far too small to meet their needs.

    The required pricing for each residence in order to pay for such a costly project would be a tough sell in the Detroit real estate market---actually in any market outside of a handful of US cities.

    Another footnote regarding 432 Park is that it is currently the tallest building in the US. Like many other skyscrapers, One World Trade & Willis (former Sears) "cheat" by including the spire (non occupy-able space) in the total height of the building. Willis is 1,354 to the top floor, 432 Park is 1,396.
    Yes. The economics of the skinny supertall residentials only really makes sense in Manhattan. You need tremendous psf sales prices to justify the massive engineering costs and lost common/elevator space on the higher floors.

    Just to illustrate, these supertall towers can justify up to 8,000-9,000 psf in sales prices. That's insanely expensive. The most prime parts of Chicago get maybe 1,000 psf. If Chicago is nowhere in the universe of where the supertall economics work out, you can see that smaller cities won't be getting such buildings anytime soon.

    432 Park is about to be surpassed by two taller residential supertalls- 111 W.57 and Central Park Tower. CPT will be the tallest residential tower on earth.

    Technically not a supertall, but these are the types of prices on the extreme high end of new construction- a $250 million condo at 220 Central Park South.

    http://therealdeal.com/2016/05/05/22...he-sky-photos/

    To compare, the best office building in Michigan, One Detroit Center, recently sold to Gilbert for around $100 million. So that's a million square foot trophy office tower for less than half the price of a Manhattan apartment.
    Last edited by Bham1982; May-05-16 at 08:03 AM.

  16. #66

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    imo the client doesn't really have much place in the direct design of the building.

    The client should hire an architecture firm who does the type of work that they want to have done with design beliefs and theories and processes and values that they find agreeable. They should be cooperative and engaged in the process, and they should let the architects do their work and have some trust and faith in their expertise. If you don't trust the architect enough to trust their decisions then you've hired the wrong architect (and at the same time part of their professional expertise is knowing how to build trust with clients). If you think you are a better architect than the architect then you've either hired the wrong architect or you're a hopeless egomaniac.

    Don't hire a death metal band to do polka for your wedding.

    For some reason it's extremely easy for me to imagine Dan Gilbert being a PITA client and dragging the project down.

    We'll find out soon if Dan starts making angry tweets about SHoP on twitter.

  17. #67

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    4-6 Story "Podium" with an unspecified height residential tower on that podium.


    http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...tial/85304910/

    Cullen said the "podium" portion of the building will probably measure four to six stories and a residential tower of unspecified height will rise above that. The rental rates for the apartments "will certainly set the high-water mark for rents in the city as well, just given the nature of it," Cullen said.

  18. #68

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    It also states end of year, so no new design renderings anytime soon...

  19. #69

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    I really don't know why they need a civic component to a building so close to CMart. If they want to have a little area at the front with sculptures, a small fountain, etc. similar to what you might find in a shopping mall, fine, but I don't see the need for anything more. Also, I wonder if it's possible to transfer the affordable units component to other Gilbert owned properties. i.e. if you allow me to leave out the required 40 units in this building I'll put 50 more in xyz buildings.

  20. #70

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    I actually like the civic component. CMP and Cadillac Square are typically swamped during the day. As downtown continues to grow and more people live/work there it will be nice to have additional gathering places as well as activating ones we already have like Grand Circus and Hart Plaza. It looks like they are taking that approach with the new 1001 Woodward Plaza.

  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by 48307 View Post
    4-6 Story "Podium" with an unspecified height residential tower on that podium.


    http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...tial/85304910/

    I see this being a 300-350 footer...Anyone else?

  22. #72

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    If the Cavaliers win the NBA finals, will the development get fast-tracked?

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMichigan View Post
    I see this being a 300-350 footer...Anyone else?
    I'm going with 60 stories +/- 10 stories.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliboyer View Post
    I'm going with 60 stories +/- 10 stories.
    I suspect somewhere between 20 and 40. Less than 20 isn't even really considered a high-rise, and it is probably impossible to justify going higher than 40 on economic grounds as the per square foot cost starts to escalate. On the other hand, it seems pretty clear that Gilbert wants this to be a signature building, so he will probably be biased toward the higher end.

    However, if they build a 60 story tower I won't complain.

  25. #75

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    I really like this concept...looks like old Detroit...but with AC and Wi-Fi. Should really blend well with our current architectural treasures.

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