Finnish Education: lessons for Detroit?

[Canadian Visitor]

An article in today's Globe and Mail focuses on the Finnish education system, which is typically ranked #1 or 2 in the world by PISA [[int'l ranking body for education systems in OECD countries).

It examines not only why academic outcomes are so good, but why social mobility [[roughly the ability for poor or lower-middle income kids to climb to a higher standard of living than their parents) is also best-in-class so to speak.

The article only briefly touches on comparisons with Canada, the U.S., Germany and Britain.

Its a radically different approach they are using, however, than any of those models.

What could be lifted from the Finnish model to work in Detroit and/or Michigan?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle29716845/

PISA rankings, 2015 - Reading and Math:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26249042

[Hermod]

Adopting the Finnish model:

Just prior to World War II, Douglas MacArthur was trying to build an army and a navy for the Philippine government so that they could protect themselves after their scheduled independence in 1946. He was having a rough time and then his partially trained army got steamrollered by the Japanese in 1941. About 1940, someone visited and looked over what MacArthur was doing and noted that he was "trying to build the Swiss Army without the Swiss".

Adopting the Finnish method here in Detroit Public Schools would be trying to build the Finnish school system without the Finns.

[Canadian Visitor]

Adopting the Finnish model:

Just prior to World War II, Douglas MacArthur was trying to build an army and a navy for the Philippine government so that they could protect themselves after their scheduled independence in 1946. He was having a rough time and then his partially trained army got steamrollered by the Japanese in 1941. About 1940, someone visited and looked over what MacArthur was doing and noted that he was "trying to build the Swiss Army without the Swiss".

Adopting the Finnish method here in Detroit Public Schools would be trying to build the Finnish school system without the Finns.

I'm not suggesting replication.

But I think there would be universal agreement that the system in Detroit and perhaps more broadly in the U.S. [[in reference to public education) under performs. It certainly has sub-par academic results.

I would gather DPS under performs those U.S. numbers on top.

So what to do?

Are there lessons from Finland [[or elsewhere) that could be adopted in order to produce a better result?

[Bham1982]

But I think there would be universal agreement that the system in Detroit and perhaps more broadly in the U.S. [[in reference to public education) under performs. It certainly has sub-par academic results.

In Detroit, certainly. In the U.S., probably no.

The PISA reports are generally garbage because they don't compare apples-to-apples. The U.S. is one of very few first-world countries where everyone tests, and everyone is on the college track, taking the college exam.

In most of Europe, and East Asia, only a select group of students are being compared to the general student body in the U.S. So the U.S. typically doesn't perform very well. If you go to school somewhere like Germany the college track is basically decided by the fourth grade, and students are separated into four different school types, only two of which may lead to higher education.

The U.S. has a pretty good educational system. It has huge equity issues, and massive legacy costs [[read: pensions) but is pretty good. As someone educated in Western Europe and the U.S. I would prefer my kids be educated here.

[Canadian Visitor]

In Detroit, certainly. In the U.S., probably no.

The PISA reports are generally garbage because they don't compare apples-to-apples. The U.S. is one of very few first-world countries where everyone tests, and everyone is on the college track, taking the college exam.

Several problems with this. First the PISA exams are global standard. They are not different in Germany or Canada in Math or Science and as close as possible in terms of what is tested for linguistically and how.

PISA sets a minimum # of students [[5,000) who must take the test, and they have to be no older than 16 yrs, 2mos. old, and no less old than 15.

So these are not SAT comparisons.

The samples are required to be representative across schools, districts etc; so they are typical to the age group.

*****

As to your assertion that the overall US system is good.

I think the High School attainment level in the U.S. belies that assumption.

Below are the rates of HS completion for various countries. Canada's number is actually much lower than expected [[for me) at 79%; because I know Ontario's rate is 84% and we're 40% of Canada by population.

1.	Portugal	96.00
2.	Slovenia	96.00
3.	Finland	95.00
4.	Japan	95.00
5.	United Kingdom	92.00
6.	Ireland	91.00
7.	Norway	91.00
8.	New Zealand	90.00
9.	Switzerland	90.00
10.	Iceland	89.00
11.	Israel	89.00
12.	Korea, South	89.00
13.	Hungary	87.00
14.	Denmark	85.00
15.	Poland	85.00
16.	Czech Republic	84.00
17.	Germany	84.00
18.	Italy	81.00
19.	Slovakia	81.00
20.	Canada	79.00
21.	United States	76.00
22.	Spain	74.00
23.	Sweden	74.00
24.	Luxembourg	69.00
25.	Chile	68.00

Post-Secondary attainment is respectable in the US. Though there remains room for improvement.

Country Age 25-64 [[%) Canada 54 Russia 54 Israel 49 Luxembourg 46 South Korea 45 United States 44 Australia 42 Finland 42 Norway 42 United Kingdom 42

[Canadian Visitor]

I should add, on the post-secondary front the US number is materially worse relative to other countries w/the younger generation [[25-34)

Where attainment levels put the U.S. at 11th. at 46 %

Compared with South Korea at 68 [[#1); and Canada at 58% [[#2)

[Don Mossi-ish]

Why is it always Finland, Sweden or Denmark that we should be taking our ques from? Their combined populations would not equal one Burroughs in NYC and their ethnic make-ups are 97% standard Finn or Swede. Who couldn't manage such harmony? We don't operate under those conditions.

[Junjie]

Why is it always Finland, Sweden or Denmark that we should be taking our ques from? Their combined populations would not equal one Burroughs in NYC and their ethnic make-ups are 97% standard Finn or Swede. Who couldn't manage such harmony? We don't operate under those conditions.

Did you read the article? They are talking specifically about schools with large immigrant populations from the middle east and eastern Europe. They also mention that until a couple decades ago, Finland was far behind Sweden and other Nordic countries.

[Bham1982]

Several problems with this. First the PISA exams are global standard. They are not different in Germany or Canada in Math or Science and as close as possible in terms of what is tested for linguistically and how.

PISA sets a minimum # of students [[5,000) who must take the test, and they have to be no older than 16 yrs, 2mos. old, and no less old than 15.

So these are not SAT comparisons.

The samples are required to be representative across schools, districts etc; so they are typical to the age group.

The problem with the PISA isn't any of these things. It's that the people taking the PISA aren't apples-to-apples across countries.

In the U.S., almost 100% of students are college-prep. Whether or not they attend college is irrelevant; they are in schools where college is an option, and where there's a required college prep curriculum.

In Germany, or Denmark, only about 30% of students are college-prep. The other students were segregated out of the college-prep track around 4th or 5th grade.

So the PISA is comparing 90% of American students with 30% of students in other countries. You're comparing the best in these other countries with the general U.S. student population [[and in the Chinese case it's only like 10% of student population that is in college prep education). This is the main reason the U.S. does so poorly at PISA.

And you see the same thing in Europe. The UK, which has a system closer to that of the U.S. than that of Western Europe, also scores poorly. It doesn't mean that the UK has worse schools than that of Germany or France; it means that they aren't segregating out the students into separate academic tracks.

I attended a top-tier public school in Germany and my education was much better in Bloomfield Hills schools. I would definitely put my kids in American public schools over public schools anywhere in Germany.

[Wesley Mouch]

Whether or not PISA ranks us higher or lower than others doesn't mean it wouldn't be smart to look at their methods.

I personally think the self-flagellation over school performance in the USA is overdone -- but at least its concerned about kids.

I would suggest that these ideas be passed onto those who run our public school over at the MEA.

[Canadian Visitor]

The problem with the PISA isn't any of these things. It's that the people taking the PISA aren't apples-to-apples across countries.

In the U.S., almost 100% of students are college-prep. Whether or not they attend college is irrelevant; they are in schools where college is an option, and where there's a required college prep curriculum.

In Germany, or Denmark, only about 30% of students are college-prep. The other students were segregated out of the college-prep track around 4th or 5th grade.

So the PISA is comparing 90% of American students with 30% of students in other countries. You're comparing the best in these other countries with the general U.S. student population [[and in the Chinese case it's only like 10% of student population that is in college prep education). This is the main reason the U.S. does so poorly at PISA.

And you see the same thing in Europe. The UK, which has a system closer to that of the U.S. than that of Western Europe, also scores poorly. It doesn't mean that the UK has worse schools than that of Germany or France; it means that they aren't segregating out the students into separate academic tracks.

I attended a top-tier public school in Germany and my education was much better in Bloomfield Hills schools. I would definitely put my kids in American public schools over public schools anywhere in Germany.

I'm unclear on your persistent references to the German model, beyond what you experienced.

The article looks at the Finnish system, which doesn't stream until grade 11, and even then, its voluntary.

If we open this up to wider comparison, Ontario is right across the border and we rank between #7-13 in PISA scores depending on subject and year.

Ontario doesn't stream at all before grade 10, and the vast majority of students pursue the academic [[college-stream) diploma.

PISA in Germany, so far as I understand, is sampled from all academic streams, not just 'gymansium' [[or academic).

Though I will stand for correction if evidence to the contrary is brought forward.

****

It may well be that the one public school option in your community does provide a better education than the German school to which you were exposed.

Though, even were that the case, its hardly conclusive about schools in Michigan as a whole.

Moreover it doesn't reflect the differential in achievement for systems in Finland [[the point of the article); or Canada. [[for the sake of broad similarity w/the U.S. system[[s).

The east Asian systems are very different and would certainly not qualify as 'apples' so to speak.

But that alone shouldn't be grounds for failing to study what works.

Sure not all ideas will 'translate' to Detroit or Michigan.

Some might, but that doesn't mean you necessarily want to adopt them for various reasons.

But go look. Maybe there's an idea there [[or two or three) worth poaching, or at least trying out.

[Bham1982]

Whether or not PISA ranks us higher or lower than others doesn't mean it wouldn't be smart to look at their methods.

Absolutely true. The U.S. could learn a lot from other systems.

All I'm saying is that the PISA data isn't really taken seriously, because it isn't comparing apples-to-apples student populations. There are huge differences worldwide in how K-12 systems segregate students according to ability/college-career track.

The general philosophy in the U.S. is that students shouldn't be shut out of college opportunities even if they aren't exactly stellar performers, while in Europe and Asia, the lower performing students aren't taking PISA, because they are on apprenticeship/trade school tracks.

So Johnny in Lincoln Park, headed to community college or the military, is taking PISA, while Johann in Germany, headed to an apprenticeship program, isn't. That's all.

[Canadian Visitor]

Absolutely true. The U.S. could learn a lot from other systems.

It would further the discussion, if you were more specific.

What changes in curriculum, school day or year, pedagogy or teacher qualifications would you like to see?

[Dan Wesson]

It would further the discussion, if you were more specific.

What changes in curriculum, school day or year, pedagogy or teacher qualifications would you like to see?

Finnish Education: Lessons For Detroit?

Sisu!!

[Canadian Visitor]

Finnish Education: Lessons For Detroit?


Sisu!!

Well, ya made me look it up! For everyone else: [[from wikipedia)

Sisu is a Finnish word that cannot be translated metaphrastically into the English language, loosely translated to mean stoic determination, bravery, guts, resilience,^[1][2] perseverance and hardiness,^[3][4] expressing the historic self-identified Finnish national character.
Sisu is about taking action against the odds and displaying courage and resoluteness in the face of adversity. Deciding on a course of action and then sticking to that decision against repeated failures is Sisu. It is similar to equanimity, with the addition of a grim quality of stress management. The pertaining adjective is sisukas, "having the quality of Sisu".
"Having guts" is a fairly literal translation, as the word derives from sisus, which means something inner or interior. One closely related concept to Sisu is grit; which shares some of its denoting elements with Sisu, save for "stress management" and passion for a long-term goal. Sisu may have an element of passion but it is not always present,^[5] unlike in the case of grit as defined by Dr. Angela Duckworth.^[6]

[swingline]

The Finns also do not impose 6-7 hours of daily classroom instruction and 2-3 additional hours of daily homework on elementary grade students either.