How come churches haven't prevented Detroit's slide?

[467riverfix]

Interesting piece in FP this AM about megachurch move to Midtown to help shore up that part of central Detroit still impoverished - with religion, family values, etc. Which begs the question: Detroit has had hundreds of churches for decades. How come they didn't prevent the city from sliding to near oblivion?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ides/82188574/

[Wesley Mouch]

This is a very important question. I've always wondered why churches seem to contribute so little to Detroit [[any urban area). Oddly, the Catholic Church through groups like the Capuchin Kitchen seem to do more than the mega variety for the City. There's something to be learned here.

[Bham1982]

Why would churches have an impact on macro regional housing and jobs trends? They just follow their congregants.

If anything, churches may have a negative impact on their communities, in that they're sustained by their congregants, and in poor urban communities, probably not a good thing if little old ladies are giving their limited funds to the local reverend. Takes money out of the community and into Bloomfield or wherever the reverend is living.

[Shai_Hulud]

I think churches are best at social issues. They are good at giving individual attention to someone who is homeless, addicted, etc.

But when the economy blows the wrong way they have no way to get large numbers of people employed and then the services they do provide are easily overwhelmed.

[Király]

Detroit has had hundreds of churches for decades. How come they didn't prevent the city from sliding to near oblivion?

Because the congregations left the city. A church without a congregation is nothing.

[dguy4evr]

Because the congregations left the city. A church without a congregation is nothing.

Kiraly:

This is so untrue. If you travel through Detroit you find lots of "Storefront" Churches. There seems to be one on every other corner. Plenty of congregations left.

[dtowncitylover]

This has always bothered me on two fronts. One because I know a church without a congregation is nothing and secondly because I know that it's hard to fault, as much as I want to, any organized institution for nearly leaving the city.

I grew up Catholic and attended Shrine Schools and saw a rise in black Detroit students during my high school years because either their parents could afford it over risking DPS or their Catholic high school [[Trinity, Bishop Borgess, Notre Dame HP) had closed. Because the AofD was very heavily ethnic, I think that made the Diocese more conservative on racial attitudes. The congregants didn't want blacks in their neighborhoods and the diocese knew this. So while social programs were good, they were there almost for the rank and file Catholics to say, "We do do good for the poor", but they would never do anything themselves.

This is of course why there aren't a large number of black Catholics because after the Civil War the Catholic Church in the US did very little to support freed slaves so as not to upset their Irish, German, Italian patrons who were new Americans, heavily supported the Church and cared very little for freed slaves. That translated well into the 20th century.

So when white flight happened, the Catholic churches left with them. Abandoning their old, Gothic structures, the ethnic neighborhoods, and then the congregants get to blame the blacks for everything.

The black church however has almost a near Catholic-Quebec style of power over the city of Detroit from what I have observed. But I don't know much about it to write about its effect on the city's woes.

[1953]

Churches often focus on meeting the basic human needs of indigent populations - this is a very rudimentary social service strategy, and actually has the effect of repulsing people who don't want to live near the indigent people attracted to church soup kitchens and closing closets.

[Johnnny5]

Detroit's "sliding to near oblivion" was far more than any religious organization in this city could have handled, nor should they have been expected to assume that role. That said, there are plenty of areas where churches and their associated buildings are the only things still maintained and standing. Many have held on and helped far more than most groups in the city.

[EastsideAl]

What in the world do churches have to do with national and global economic trends? You mean why didn't everyone's own personal favorite sky buddy save us all from economic and social disaster? You could ask that question about every poverty-stricken place on earth [[which also tend, surprise!, to be the most religious places too).

That said, the churches in Detroit have operated as powerful social institutions. They have been one of the institutions that have helped to hold this city together socially as much as it has been, when it was abandoned, isolated, and left to die by almost every other institution in our economy, government, and society. But the main forces involved are way beyond their control, and certainly not in the purview of the supernatural.

[RickBeall]

Also, maybe the decline would have been even worse without the efforts of the various churches large and small to help their neighborhood and congregation.

[RickBeall]

Maybe the only reason anything is left at all is because the churches stayed as long as they could. [[I know this is an overstatement, but maybe one with a hint of truth in it.)

[Hypestyles]

It comes across as an update of the Promise Keepers. I say this not as a criticism but just a general observation. I remember when there was a convention at either Ford Field or Comerica Park, circa 1998-99. Heavily invested in reviving "Christian Manhood", "becoming leaders again", etc.

Regarding the pastoral leadership, who knows. I've never heard of this guy before. Good luck to him. I don't actively follow megachurch culture, but I suppose in this age of corporate consolidation and cross-promotion, I guess it's not altogether unheard of for a group of mostly outer-suburban ministers to "pool resources" for a distinctly urban "spinoff" ministry. Looking at the website, all of these gentlemen [[sidebar: no women) have an informal look to their wardrobe. Who knows if it's that way on Sunday, but it goes against the grain of the traditional power-boundary wardrobe choices of mainstream religious leaders [[and particularly within African American social circles).

I have no idea whether or not this operation intends to be "political". Officially, it may not [[certainly, not to the extent to jeopardize its 501 C-3 status). It remains to be seen whether the new "Detroit Church" will publicly align itself with traditional sentiments regarding gays & abortion, not to mention the zeal to charter-up the schools, or put its energy toward the economic issues of Detroit [[better city services, need for more diverse types of industries, better improved public education).

Based on the article, it seems like the backers want to outreach to Gen Y types primarily, and to be as hopefully multicultural as possible without outright advertising that they want more than just black people to show up. Dress code standards are another topic that would be interesting to see. Some traditionalists absolutely "hate" jeans, sweatsuits, gym shoes being allowed; even some frown at pants on women.

Considering the backing of six other churches, does that mean that financially, the founding congregation won't be quite as heavily hectored for generous tithing? There are plenty of churches where there's not one but two offertory sessions, and leadership [[or whoever has the mic) aren't above guilt-tripping to get that "$100-$200-$300 blessing".

Sidebar: particularly in African American Christian culture, the custom of referring to one's religious leader exclusively by their title [[Pastor, Bishop) in all social settings [[formal and even very informal, including when they're not around) is something I'm curious whether "Pastor Sonny" will address..

[Scottathew]

Why would churches have an impact on macro regional housing and jobs trends? They just follow their congregants.

Churches can't fix those issues. However, a major contributing factor to poverty is having babies before you're ready. This doesn't even mean in your teen years. Just plain old don't have kids until you're ready to support them.

Churches are more likely to preach the "until you're married" line of thinking. And they're also more likely to preach abstinence instead of other methods that are much better at preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Unwanted pregnancies doom ill prepared mothers to a life of poverty, many times alone. It also dooms the child to a life of poverty, to be raised in the ways of poverty, and to be fully setup to be thrust into an adult of poverty.

Solving the unwanted pregnancy issue would be a huge piece to the fixing Detroit puzzle [[as well as fixing poverty in places other than Detroit too).

[bust]

Kiraly:

This is so untrue. If you travel through Detroit you find lots of "Storefront" Churches. There seems to be one on every other corner. Plenty of congregations left.

Like Sekou Sundiata said in "Urban Music":

I don’t know much, but I’ve seen a few.
And a few things have seen me too.
Talk about urban music, this is it.
Music the river, music the flame, music the sound of life in our veins.
Oh God, help us to be those did what you want us to do.
Give us the groove to make this house move.
Let everything we say be real.
Let everything we do be funky.
Let us bow our heads.
Let us moan so the devil won’t know what we’re talking about.
I spell these words to spell love.
To the unconscious.
To the conscious trying to get consciousness.
To our neighborhoods used to be communities now called ghettos.
The barber shops, the ball courts, the hallways, the bar, the lounge.
The mosque, the temple, the church next door to the liquor store next door to the church next door to the projects we exchange for prisons...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZQUjWHG-ZA

Check out his whole "Long Story Short" album while you're at it.
It's heavy New York but much of it applies to Detroit and elsewhere.
A few of you may also like "Droppin' Revolution":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oYCDvSbdE0

He passed far too young.

[Wesley Mouch]

What in the world do churches have to do with national and global economic trends? You mean why didn't everyone's own personal favorite sky buddy save us all from economic and social disaster? You could ask that question about every poverty-stricken place on earth [[which also tend, surprise!, to be the most religious places too).

That said, the churches in Detroit have operated as powerful social institutions. They have been one of the institutions that have helped to hold this city together socially as much as it has been, when it was abandoned, isolated, and left to die by almost every other institution in our economy, government, and society. But the main forces involved are way beyond their control, and certainly not in the purview of the supernatural.

Blaming 'national and global economic trends' is wrong.

Sure, N&GETs are headwinds. But they don't excuse lack of action. I don't see the action. What have they done to 'old this city together socially'? I don't ask this because I know. I'm asking because I don't. As I posted earlier. Capuchin's help hold things together. MegaChurch with billboard on freeways and monuments to their leaders? I'm less sure. But I'm open to hearing.

[dtowncitylover]

It comes across as an update of the Promise Keepers. I say this not as a criticism but just a general observation. I remember when there was a convention at either Ford Field or Comerica Park, circa 1998-99.

I don't mean to get sidetracked or nitpick, but neither of those places were open until 2000-2002. Perhaps you meant Tiger Stadium or Silverdome?

[beachboy]

What in the world do churches have to do with national and global economic trends? [...] the churches in Detroit have operated as powerful social institutions [...] that have helped to hold this city together socially as much as it has been, when it was abandoned, isolated, and left to die by almost every other institution in our economy, government, and society. But the main forces involved are way beyond their control ...

Spot on! In the good ol' USA, churches are [[at best) service-providing institutions, not departments of government. Their role [[esp. for RCC) as formal governance institutions was abolished centuries ago.

Nowadays, churches [[and pastors) can encourage, advise, warn, exhort, pray, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and so forth. But they could not - and cannot - fix the private and public corruption, willful smug myopia, and apathy that sent Detroit to Skid Row ... and will keep "da D" there for some time ... despite the best intentions of many local people. ​

Agios Athanatos, eleison imas ...

[Bobl]

I am nodding my head in agreement with EastsideAl's post [[#10). Another question related to this thread: Why have African Americans adopted the Christian dogma of those who kidnapped and enslaved their ancestors?

[G-DDT]

Wesley and Eastside Al are right.

First of all: The churches are not government per say [[thank God for that-but leave it up to the Reconstructionalists or the very Religious Right who side with them-Council of National Policy and such-and you got an ugly scene going on there); that separation keeps them from righting [[or worsening-depending who the big cheese faith is in power) the wrongs we see prevalent in this world [[financial disparity, violence in culture, etc.).

Second: lumping the "churches" into one big category is a seriously clumsy mistake to make. There is no one way to get Christianity right, but there are a LOT of ways to get it wrong. Not all faiths apply themselves as well to the scriptures that they profess to follow [[yet, it seems the ones who stray the worse are the most popular and get the most exposure to those desperately seeking faith or those eyeing it critically), and this is something Jesus evens warns [[you can even say it is the third most popular teaching in the New Testament.).

Social Justice is the issue to follow, and groups like the Catholics [[except many of your EWTN conservo-Catholics who seem more obsessed with Marism, Eucharist, and abortion) are big followers of such issues [["Liberation Theology" by Berryman is a good book to read on that; yet, there are those that try to attache the handle of "Liberation Theology" with their "Health-n-Weath/Prosperity Schemes). You may have those who forsake all that Jesus taught [[as well as the number of times St. Paul or James in their letters emphasized "good works"), by either being buttoned-down separatist old-school faiths [[I can think of a few in the suburbs-and even if they do make the move to be "helpful", it either is only towards their own members, which defies the "all men" terminology in Paul's writing, or it is to be "messengers" who wish to proselyte other nation's in their "white man's burden fashion". In the case of the latter, they are forgetting to minister-that is to serve-the practical needs as well, and are more in peril of being what Jesus railed on towards the Pharisees for being-"those that turn others into twice the poor devil that you are".) or those who see temporal status as equivalent to their faith [[I Timothy 6 counters that). Thus, with "better faith" they assume that will bless them with "wealth or health", and those who lack, well, by their enclosed circular reasoning, those are they that have fallen short [[it is a highly heretical and popular form of teaching, that is often condemned justly by other Christians.).

Such hustlers who can't put their mind to things above [[like Detroit World Outreach who probably are no strangers to T.D. Jakes or Creflo Dollar) are the type of abominous false prophets who encourage the very disparity and injustice out there. Many of the store front churches are just independent splinters who still play off such ideologies or they are satellite para-churches who get some of their funding from a larger church [[look at the literature-other than what should only be the Bible-that they may be pushing in such churches to get an idea as to who sponsors them). Yet, the list is endless of the various groups who skew and wrest scripture [[and delving enough will reveal the flaws that don't harmonize with scripture or at the least, the ugly politics smuggled into the theology.), so I can go on....

Regarding the Catholics in Detroit, read about Fr. Kern. Research about how nuns at St. Leo's on Grand River took in folks seeking asylum during the riots in the 60's. Black Catholics? Check out Sacred Heart or St. Charles of Borromeo [[sic). Again, I have more to say....

Much of the withstanding work many churches [[be it Catholic, Methodist, Mennonite, Liberal Baptist-of the MLK cut) engage in are thankless tasks that never get done [[much like janitorial work is the work that never gets done). Yet, they sustain tremendously [[some of the best miracles are subtle and look like nothing was ever being done at all!) against unfavorable odds. Yet, the media....never touches on these things. Should we be surprised if some walk away with the notion that all that the churches ever vie for is the very "filthy lucre" that Paul & Peter warned about?

[Hermod]

I am nodding my head in agreement with EastsideAl's post [[#10). Another question related to this thread: Why have African Americans adopted the Christian dogma of those who kidnapped and enslaved their ancestors?

Captured, kidnapped, and enslaved by brown and black Muslims, marched to the ocean shore, and then sold to white owners of slave ships. Lost to their unique tribal based animism by being forcibly isolated from their fellows and placed with other slaves of differing tribes and religious customs. Other than a few folkways which have come down, Christianity with its belief in a glorious afterlife was the only rock to cling to in the storm of their lives.

[masterblaster]

Churches can't fix those issues. However, a major contributing factor to poverty is having babies before you're ready. This doesn't even mean in your teen years. Just plain old don't have kids until you're ready to support them.

Churches are more likely to preach the "until you're married" line of thinking. And they're also more likely to preach abstinence instead of other methods that are much better at preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Unwanted pregnancies doom ill prepared mothers to a life of poverty, many times alone. It also dooms the child to a life of poverty, to be raised in the ways of poverty, and to be fully setup to be thrust into an adult of poverty.

Solving the unwanted pregnancy issue would be a huge piece to the fixing Detroit puzzle [[as well as fixing poverty in places other than Detroit too).

You are correct, churches are supposed to preach the "until you're married" line of thinking because the Bible commands us to be abstinent until marriage.

I would have thought the churches would have been much more effective in promoting strong nuclear families, encouraging fathers to be leaders of the household or at least being an integral part of their children's lives, discouraging sexual relations out of marriage, encouraging strong work ethic, discouraging drug abuse, discouraging doing evil toward's your neighbor [[such as stealing from, and killing, people), discouraging abortions. These kind of things have nothing to do with job trends.

It seems like all of these churches, two per block in some instances, have been ineffective in the breakdown of the family structure, which is a big reason for the breakdown of Detroit

[Dumpling]

Focus:HOPE was founded by Roman Catholic priest Father Bill Cunningham in the
wake of the 1967 Detroit riots. One of its first missions, after feeding hungry city
children and elders with USDA surplus, was to train underemployed city youth
for middle class machinist positions. To the best of my knowledge it has been
wildly successful at this. However, the Detroit area machine shop Yellow Page
listings shows that nine out of ten machine shops [[if not more) are in the suburbs.
It follows that if a suburb has less crime, better schools, reasonably priced
housing, and is walking distance to a new machine shop job, a newly trained
Focus:HOPE machinist who was formerly living in Detroit would at least think
very hard about moving to this suburb. For every African American moving
to the suburbs there seems to be another one moving down south or west, for
job opportunities, family reasons, or retirement. So you can have a successful
church movement, successful graduates, successful companies that they now
work at, but the city Detroit itself? Maybe not so much from this.

[Warrenite84]

Many churches have worked hard to fulfill their mission but the offering plate ran dry due to dwindling congregants that moved to the suburbs or were too financially strapped to help more.

The EACH Program has been continuing to bring positive results. One of several churches not mentioned in the article, Rockpointe Community Church in Sterling Heights, has partnered with a local church to help where needed. They have also partnered with Osborne High School for community outreach, repairs to the school at no cost, clean up of empty lots, fixing peoples' homes who are unable to, and prayer for those who are in need.

I am all for seeing urban and suburban churches get together and tackle the spiritual and physical needs in the toughest urban communities.

[G-DDT]

For those skeptical of the "church's" role in improving life throughout history, there seems to be a vast amnesia that can't recollect that a majority of our nation's long withstanding institutions of hospitals and universities were started by religious entities. The church was doing this and feeding the poor [[and caring for those on leper colonies, etc.-once again more thankless tasks for "lost causes" or those roles that can be chalked up to endlessly wearying "maintenance" that the church goes unsung for accomplishing) while society on one end furthered only itself by it's self-gratifying arts [[that didn't feed the masses), while society on the other end was content to live like a Bruegel painting wallowing in drunken and degradation [[because the choice was always theirs to make on the issue of self-improvement).