After M-1 Rail

[MicrosoftFan]

Looking at the M-1 Rail plan and the RTA website, I can't get over the question: Will the M-1 Rail ever get extended into a full system, or even an extension to 8 Mile Road? It seems like the whole area is moving to BRT, but I think that LRT should be on the heavily used lines.

UPDATE: M-1 Rail is now officially named Q-Line

[ekleezy]

Looking at the M-1 Rail plan and the RTA website, I can't get over the question: Will the M-1 Rail ever get extended into a full system, or even an extension to 8 Mile Road? It seems like the whole area is moving to BRT, but I think that LRT should be on the heavily used lines.

http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/evaluation/

It looks like LRT isn't currently being planned. "Based on analysis of the above evaluation criteria BRT [[mixed-in-traffic and exclusive guideway) emerged as the modal alternative moving to further analysis." I can't remember where, but there have been rumors about expanding to other streets such as Jefferson. I would love to see LRT go to 8 mile+, but I don't think there is much use for it right now. Maybe if it was extended to downtown Ferndale and Royal Oak, but I think BRT should be fine for now. I'd rather see lines added to Michigan, Gratiot and Jefferson first.

[MicrosoftFan]

http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/evaluation/

I can't remember where, but there have been rumors about expanding to other streets such as Jefferson.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Maybe an extention of the M-1 Streetcar down Campus Martius, along Jefferson East to Elmwood Park/ Belle Isle? I could see that be great for Rivertown.

[ekleezy]

Yeah, I believe the possibility of expanding to Jefferson East is being looked at. Nothing specific released that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure how far it would go if it happens. I could see that being extremely beneficial for the area too.

[Junjie]

Maybe an extention of the M-1 Streetcar down Campus Martius, along Jefferson East to Elmwood Park/ Belle Isle? I could see that be great for Rivertown.

The recent request for qualification for a new east riverfront development plan stipulated that any such plans developed should include a "Conceptual framework plan for transit including: ...  Connectivity and expansion of M1 Rail via East Jefferson Avenue, including proposed design, budget and financing." This is a request for companies to submit plans for development that include M-1 and says nothing about whether M-1 itself is looking to extend the line out Jefferson [[though I hope they do).

East Riverfront RFQ

As to the main question posed about extending M-1, this discussion has come up before and repeatedly gets bogged down in the difference between a streetcar and light rail rapid transit [[LRT). M-1 is a streetcar. According to others on this board there have been some provisions made for it to transition to LRT north of New Center, but nothing is on the table right now. The vehicles can be the same, but it's the difference between stops every other block and running in traffic with cars [[current streetcar) versus stops every half mile or so and dedicated lanes / elevated tracks / tunnels [[LRT).

The meta-point, as always, is that transportation choices guide development. If we want to create new, dense transit-oriented development, then at some point we have to build high capacity rapid transit even if current usage doesn't "justify" it as a response to existing trips. That would be my argument for building LRT in Detroit. M-1 to 8 Mile as streetcar would be a bad investment - too slow to serve that purpose. But as a thing focused on moving people around "greater downtown" [[Belle Isle to the Ambassador Bridge, Hart Plaza to Grand Blvd) streetcars could have a lot of value.

[mikeg19]

I gotta agree with some of the other posters, in that if any extension was to happen, Jefferson Ave east and Michigan Ave west would probably be better then continuing Woodward north. With the Riverfront investments we have seen in the past decade and continuing developments on the water, there's not doubt that ridership would be strong going from downtown to Belle Isle. Heading the other direction on Michigan Ave toward Corktown has/is seeing massive investment as well. With the soon to be developed Tiger Stadium site and potential development at/around MCS, Corktown would also be a great place to extend out as well.

[dtowncitylover]

Also, it has to be reiterated that streetcar service is not supposed to be far-reaching into the metro area. It is a local service, servicing the immediate population. It's not supposed to bring in suburbanites and take them home.

It's also the hope M-1 Rail, after RTA funding is passed, will be folded in DDOT and be self-sufficient and further develop through public ownership.

[Mackinaw]

Should start immediately on an extension and/or connecting link from Woodward to Van Dyke or perhaps even Waterworks via Jefferson. Jefferson should be targeted for a density infusion, with highrises going in its many vacant and car-lot / gas-station filled frontage, and immediate purpose served in connecting the Gold Coast and Indian/West Village to downtown.

If Michigan Ave, it has to go out to Dearborn.

I think we need progress on Detroit to Ann Arbor commuter rail and increased Amtrak service. It appears Amtrak is going to stick with New Center as its Detroit hub. Obviously a little part of me would like to see MCS reused for rail, but if not, I see less reason to rush on a Michigan Ave light rail. Rather, Michigan and Gratiot should probably see BRT going out to distant suburbs, instead.

As for Woodward, let Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Birmingham be the drivers. In time, they will want linkage. Let LBP's successor make it an issue and let Oakland county pay for an M1 extension.

[ekleezy]

Should start immediately on an extension and/or connecting link from Woodward to Van Dyke or perhaps even Waterworks via Jefferson. Jefferson should be targeted for a density infusion, with highrises going in its many vacant and car-lot / gas-station filled frontage, and immediate purpose served in connecting the Gold Coast and Indian/West Village to downtown.

If Michigan Ave, it has to go out to Dearborn.

As for Woodward, let Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Birmingham be the drivers. In time, they will want linkage. Let LBP's successor make it an issue and let Oakland county pay for an M1 extension.

I agree with using a Jefferson line to encourage high-density development. Having lines running through that neighborhood would be really good too. If there were Van Dyke, Mt. Elliot, Gratiot and Jefferson lines that would do a lot to connect the area. Jefferson would definitely be a good start though.

I can't imagine having a Michigan Ave line to Dearborn being feasible any time soon. I think two miles or less of service from Campus Martius to just before I75 would be a success.

I like what you said about making Oakland County pay for an extension if they want it. So much of the distance between New Center and Ferndale wouldn't get enough use for it to make sense for Detroit to do it right now.

[Junjie]

Here's a map, since I can't help myself. What I like is that, if M-1 is a success and there is momentum/funding for additional extensions, each of these projects is of the same scope as the original M-1 segment.

Of course, there's a whole separate question about how these might interact with BRT. I know that the official plan has BRT moving off of Woodward through midtown/downtown to avoid M-1, but obviously that's not really an option with Michigan and Gratiot since there are no directly parallel streets.

[Junjie]

Guess the thread should have been titled "After the QLINE"...

[dtowncitylover]

Here's a map, since I can't help myself. What I like is that, if M-1 is a success and there is momentum/funding for additional extensions, each of these projects is of the same scope as the original M-1 segment.

Of course, there's a whole separate question about how these might interact with BRT. I know that the official plan has BRT moving off of Woodward through midtown/downtown to avoid M-1, but obviously that's not really an option with Michigan and Gratiot since there are no directly parallel streets.

What about a northeastward expansion via Holbrook or Grand Blvd and Hamtramck Dr. to Holbrook and Jos Campeau. I think that would add a lot of usefulness for Hamtramck to attract residents and business, etc.

[Junjie]

What about a northeastward expansion via Holbrook or Grand Blvd and Hamtramck Dr. to Holbrook and Jos Campeau. I think that would add a lot of usefulness for Hamtramck to attract residents and business, etc.

Agreed, Hamtramck would be great. Like this? It could be an extension of the original M-1/QLINE or its own thing.

[Had to delete my first attempt at this reply...]

[dtowncitylover]

Agreed, Hamtramck would be great. Like this? It could be an extension of the original M-1/QLINE or its own thing.

[Had to delete my first attempt at this reply...]

Beautiful.

[Ltdave]

i dont have a dog in this fight but i kind of like the name, Q-Line...

since all of my dealings in Detroit require me to drive 65 miles, i doubt id have any reason to ride other than to "just ride" like i do on the People Mover but i think its kind of cool...

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

MicrosoftFan, I have 2 responses to your posed questions. First, if the Q-Line proves a hit, yes I think it will be expanded in some form [[new lines or extending the current line are possibilities). How many people, who they are [[demographically), and their actual commuter patterns will be analyzed extensively.

My second response is that this "street car" style system should be employed in areas that are dense with potential stops, i.e. downtown Detroit, including potentially the other downtown-sections of Detroit's arterial avenues. Woodward would seem to be the only Ave that should have it extended a long ways [[the inner ring 'burbs would use it a lot, I think), and the stretch from Midtown to 8 mile will gradually fill in with more housing and business. But for city to suburb commuting, Q-Line is not what we need. That would be faster light rail or, my preference due to cost, BRT. BRT and street car should be integrated together [[and with our bus system) to be a regional system.

[Mind field]

Thinking about the feasibility of extending the Qline up Woodward into the promised land of Oakland County vs. building a line east on Jefferson, I think Jefferson makes more sense as of now. You have some decent density along that corridor, with Harbortown, and numerous other high rise condo or rental buildings. I think a line along Jefferson would spur more transit oriented development, than an extension of the Qline up to 8 mile or beyond. My reasoning is the river; which would be the selling point for a lot of new transit oriented development along Jefferson. I think the Palmer Park apartment buildings near 6 mile and Woodward would quickly see rising rents and low to no vacancy should a line be built up to 8 mile and beyond. But I don't see a ton of ridership coming from Palmer Woods or Boston Edison. Everyone there already owns cars and while they would seem to have a transit friendly mindset, it's doubtful you'd see many riders from these neighborhoods. I think if the Q Line were extended all the way up Woodward to Pontiac, you'd have significant ridership from Ferndale and Birmingham. Royal Oak could build some kind of connection to the line, which would also provide a big boost in ridership. And i think the whole Woodward corridor would see significant T.O.D. and investment, much more so than you're seeing now.

[Hypestyles]

I don't see any extensions happening anytime soon, if ever. The RTA will likely collapse due to non-funding. Out-state legislators already are against it.

[dtowncitylover]

I don't see any extensions happening anytime soon, if ever. The RTA will likely collapse due to non-funding. Out-state legislators already are against it.

Why do out-state legislators matter? RTA is already established. Taxes will only come from the counties it services.

If the RTA has good proposal and communicates if effectively to the populace, this can definitely go though. While I metro Detroit can be very provincial at times, I think we know better and understand transit and transportation options is very important to have.

[Junjie]

I don't see any extensions happening anytime soon, if ever. The RTA will likely collapse due to non-funding. Out-state legislators already are against it.

I don't see why the basic process behind M-1 couldn't be repeated for an extension or crossing line. Private backing with some public dollars, not necessarily through the RTA. The more places connected by a transit network, the more valuable each station [[i.e. the original investment in M-1 and properties near it) becomes.

[douglasm]

After looking at what Seattle has done with their Link light rail system after starting from scratch about 10 years ago, I could see the possabilities of extending the Detroit system. It would be a real benefit to the city. Seattle's long term olans are to extend the system xouth to Tacoma and north to Everett.

[RickBeall]

This was someone elses idea on facebook, but they should have called it the "Groove Line". Think of the groove line a base line, and the train runs on grooves in the ground. The music motif would have been cool for Motown.

[MicrosoftFan]

If Michigan Ave, it has to go out to Dearborn.

On the Michigan Avenue corridor I would prefer to see either 1) Commuter Rail or 2) Light Rail along the Amtrak ROW.

Also, if Commuter Rail starts from Ann Arbor to Detroit, the Q-Line is intergal to getting people from the Amtrak / Commuter Rail Station to Downtown. In addition, I think Commuter Rail should be extended up the Amtrak route to Pontiac, possibly even to Flint from there.

[MicrosoftFan]

Agreed, Hamtramck would be great. Like this? It could be an extension of the original M-1/QLINE or its own thing.

[Had to delete my first attempt at this reply...]

How about an extension from MCS down Vernor, into Mexicantown? That'd be great for SW Detroit business.

[Hermod]

This was someone elses idea on facebook, but they should have called it the "Groove Line". Think of the groove line a base line, and the train runs on grooves in the ground. The music motif would have been cool for Motown.

Better would be GIPS [[Gilbert-Illitch Parking Shuttle)