What's up with street parking zones?

[gvidas]

I'm coming to enjoy the city of Detroit parking app. It's pretty painless, especially once I figured out how to turn off that damn honking noise.

But I don't understand the zones. Every zone I've ever parked in is the same price, $1/hr. You can't use the app to switch zones. You can't cancel a parking session and re-pay for a new zone.

Has anyone gotten a ticket for having parked in, say, zone 105, and then moved to zone 103 with time still on the "meter"?

It seems like they've carved out a great opportunity to give people quasi-bogus tickets -- for having a valid parking session in a different zone than you are currently parked in.

[ParisianLesion]

Excellent question, I've often wondered the same thing. Before they installed the new meters, the reports were that the new system would go by your license plate with the implication that you would be able to move from zone to zone and as long as you had time on your meter, it wouldn't matter... which makes perfect sense for the parking consumer.

I would be curious to know if that is done in any other cities with this system. It would be great if the new system were flexible so that the consumer did not need to "leave any money on the table" by leaving one zone with 30 minutes left on it and parking in a new zone to pay all over again... however, parking in Detroit is still pretty cheap and easy so I don't see much of a groundswell of opposition to the way they have it set up. Gone are the days of pulling up to a meter and finding a bunch of left over time on it... like finding a 5er in the pocket of an old coat lol...

[48202]

Zones are like theaters. With your movie ticket, you can sit in every unoccupied seat in the theater, but you can't use your ticket to watch a different movie in a different theater.

[Gannon]

There didn't seem to be any difference between zones until one night we'd paid for a spot near the Millender Center...marked 2 hours like most of them...and when I tried to re-up for another 2 hours, at 8 o'clock at night when there is little risk of the city being at capacity parking, the app wouldn't let me.

First time being denied a renewal within a 2 hour zone.

It was inconvenient enough to send us home from the event we were enjoying. I had no idea how far I'd have to drive to find the next zone and wasn't interested in learning that night.

So, there are issues with this new system. Every first time use for the day seems to incur a service charge. There is only a dollar minimum on the app, as far as I can tell. No quickie turns for a dime to run in and out of a place.

I don't know anyone who've gotten parking tickets with this new system, but it seems they aren't getting out of their little white vulturemobiles very often...so the annoyances must come in the mail.


I still hate that they went beyond 6 pm for these anyways...fucking stupid to punish those who come down to support businesses in the city. Simply fucking stupid.

[belleislerunner]

"I still hate that they went beyond 6 pm for these anyways...fucking stupid to punish those who come down to support businesses in the city. Simply fucking stupid."

You know there's a lot of talk about putting aside 20% of units that receive tax breaks etc for affordable housing - so that entire blocks don't become homogonized. Yet, those living on affordable income, also need affordable parking options.

What about starting a petition with city hall where 20% of parking spots within each zone have free 2 hour parking limits. As a means to support those who need it most and ensure everything isn't only $20 parking garages or requires a fancy app/credit card which most of the poor don't have. Then no matter where you drive in the city, downtown/midtown/eastern market - the City has set aside 20% of parking spots on a first come/first serve - subject to two hour caps so they aren't abused.

[313rd]

You can reload on the app and stay in the same zone, but the first session must expire, before reloading. We went to the bar before an event at Joe Louis, parked at a meter, then while at the event, reloaded for two more hours from the app.

If going from one zone to a different zone, you must start a new session in the new zone. It is unfortunate that you cant take your time with you and transfer zones.

[drjeff]

There didn't seem to be any difference between zones until one night we'd paid for a spot near the Millender Center...marked 2 hours like most of them...and when I tried to re-up for another 2 hours, at 8 o'clock at night when there is little risk of the city being at capacity parking, the app wouldn't let me.

First time being denied a renewal within a 2 hour zone.

It was inconvenient enough to send us home from the event we were enjoying. I had no idea how far I'd have to drive to find the next zone and wasn't interested in learning that night.

So, there are issues with this new system. Every first time use for the day seems to incur a service charge. There is only a dollar minimum on the app, as far as I can tell. No quickie turns for a dime to run in and out of a place.

I don't know anyone who've gotten parking tickets with this new system, but it seems they aren't getting out of their little white vulturemobiles very often...so the annoyances must come in the mail.


I still hate that they went beyond 6 pm for these anyways...fucking stupid to punish those who come down to support businesses in the city. Simply fucking stupid.

I got a ticket last September in zone 206.
I was at Jolly Pumpkin having some beers with colleagues. When I arrived back to my car 15 minutes after time expired I had a $45 ticket waiting. I had tried to extend the time but the app wouldn't let me.

[gvidas]

I think the root of my concern about the new system is that the rules have changed, but they are not clearly laid out. So we're left to infer the rules based on our interactions with a passable-but-rough piece of technology. Everyone knew the old parking meters were broken, but it was a workable system because the burden of proof was on the institution -- if the meter was broken, just don't park for more than two hours and you're fine.

But now, because the system has so many different ways for you to pay, the burden is on you to both understand the system completely, and always have time in the system in the right zone for the right license plate.

48202's metaphor about the zone thing makes sense. But, you can't you cancel your parking session in zone A and start a new one in zone B, or transfer the session from zone to zone. And you can't have multiple parking sessions for the same license plate. And you can't pay for less than an hour. But because you can plausibly call in and make a payment that way, or walk to one of the meter boxes and put coins in, the burden is on you to jump around and through the hoops that the mediocre system creates.

It feels more like a cineplex where once you pick a theater they lock the doors one hour increments, even if some days they're playing 15 minute short films.

[Gannon]

I got a ticket last September in zone 206.
I was at Jolly Pumpkin having some beers with colleagues. When I arrived back to my car 15 minutes after time expired I had a $45 ticket waiting. I had tried to extend the time but the app wouldn't let me.

How encouraged have you been to return?

Buddy of mine got stung visiting his daughter at work at Great Lakes Coffee. At a spot he'd parked for years for free. Did the same thing he'd always done, ran in...got a coffee...and came out to learn it cost him an additional $45, the sign was way down the block. He flinches every time he comes down...even though he takes advantage of their agreement with the structure next door now.

He's still a bit pissed about it. Agreed that with the old system, if he had to shell out $10 for the quick-pay discount...he'd take the lesson gleefully. But the full $45 was far too much.

And it's not the money...he's not a cheapskate like me. He's got that and more. It was the principle. Felt like he got jacked, which I agree with.

I play tag with the white cars, when I'm downtown now. If they ever compare their video feeds, they'll see me on the next block way ahead of 'em...cruisin' to my next hiding spot. [[they're getting better covering some zones, heh, but if you're good you can see 'em as they turn the corner or crest that hill) If they ever are allowed to go undercover, I'm doomed.

Funny thing, they don't follow MOVING regulations themselves...especially out in the neighborhoods. Do they have some exemption over Stop lights and signs?!

Cheers, anyways

[Gannon]

I think the root of my concern about the new system is that the rules have changed, but they are not clearly laid out. So we're left to infer the rules based on our interactions with a passable-but-rough piece of technology. Everyone knew the old parking meters were broken, but it was a workable system because the burden of proof was on the institution -- if the meter was broken, just don't park for more than two hours and you're fine.

But now, because the system has so many different ways for you to pay, the burden is on you to both understand the system completely, and always have time in the system in the right zone for the right license plate.

48202's metaphor about the zone thing makes sense. But, you can't you cancel your parking session in zone A and start a new one in zone B, or transfer the session from zone to zone. And you can't have multiple parking sessions for the same license plate. And you can't pay for less than an hour. But because you can plausibly call in and make a payment that way, or walk to one of the meter boxes and put coins in, the burden is on you to jump around and through the hoops that the mediocre system creates.

It feels more like a cineplex where once you pick a theater they lock the doors one hour increments, even if some days they're playing 15 minute short films.

Well said.

Selectively enforcing time restrictions with benefits was mentioned above for residents...I say to benefit the businesses with street frontage, they can option control over a select few spots nearby with fifteen minute restrictions...and THEY get the revenue if they prove to keep up with maintenance and other neighborly concerns.

For instance, give a coffee shop on a corner all five or six spots they pay tax over...for their operating hours. Only exceptions for holidays and special functions. Geez...if they can move everyone in and out within fifteen minutes...everybody wins. Guarantee the curb, they can offer curb service.

There are all sorts of businesses that could benefit from this...and many of the no-standing zones should have some form of 'pickup ride' exemption. There are tons of folks working in high-rises that don't park or take the bus.

While we're at it...let's designate specific pickup places for all of those damned shuttle buses cluttering the streets now. They can really muck up the flow...most of their drivers simply cannot handle the width of their vehicles, and often take up two lanes. God help 'em if they have to make a turn.

[belleislerunner]

In case you missed it - WSU provided free parking on the lot on the corner of Cass/Canfield across from the dog park.

Due to overwhelming demand, they also now provide free parking directly across from University Towers on Cass Ave at a much larger lot for walking to Jolly Pumkin/Shinola etc. Of course it's only nights/weekends - but it does allieve some of that congestion. I used it Saturday to walk to Sweet Lorraines [[in the old Marwill book store) for some mac and cheese- with free parking.

[gencinjay]

I think the root of my concern about the new system is that the rules have changed, but they are not clearly laid out. So we're left to infer the rules based on our interactions with a passable-but-rough piece of technology. Everyone knew the old parking meters were broken, but it was a workable system because the burden of proof was on the institution -- if the meter was broken, just don't park for more than two hours and you're fine.

That is not a workable system. It is a broken system with ways to manipulate it.

But now, because the system has so many different ways for you to pay, the burden is on you to both understand the system completely, and always have time in the system in the right zone for the right license plate.

The signage is sufficient that you should not have any issues IMO. Yes it requires people to take some time to get to know it, but it is not hard to figure out. The best part is that it is the same from zone to zone. There are no zones with different rules that I have seen.

But, you can't you cancel your parking session in zone A and start a new one in zone B, or transfer the session from zone to zone. And you can't have multiple parking sessions for the same license plate. And you can't pay for less than an hour. But because you can plausibly call in and make a payment that way, or walk to one of the meter boxes and put coins in, the burden is on you to jump around and through the hoops that the mediocre system creates.

Let's assume they went back to single space meters everywhere, you decide how long you're going to be and feed the meter accordingly. You cannot cancel your parking at that meter if you've not used all the time either. Nor will it allow you to go to a different meter anywhere on that street or the city. There is no change in that respect. What it does allow is another person to use your money to subsidize their own parking time. Having the zones will allow you to move around that zone. The zones are pretty generous from what I have seen and they have several videos posted on the website explaining the system.

The dollar minimum is necessary to make the credit card charges worthwhile.

I would invite anyone complaining about on-street parking to read a study called The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup a professor of urban planning at the University of California. In a nutshell, it says the ideal system will treat on-street parking as premium short term parking. This forces long term parkers to look for cheaper options off street in lots or garages. When the on-street spaces are not being charged or enforced, they are taken over by the workers of the businesses and residents. This leads to lost customers.

[gencinjay]

I got a ticket last September in zone 206.
I was at Jolly Pumpkin having some beers with colleagues. When I arrived back to my car 15 minutes after time expired I had a $45 ticket waiting. I had tried to extend the time but the app wouldn't let me.

Was your time expired? My company went to Jolly Pumpkin for our holiday party. I was able to pay for a new two hour session four minutes after my time had expired.

[gencinjay]

Excellent question, I've often wondered the same thing. Before they installed the new meters, the reports were that the new system would go by your license plate with the implication that you would be able to move from zone to zone and as long as you had time on your meter, it wouldn't matter... which makes perfect sense for the parking consumer.

I would be curious to know if that is done in any other cities with this system.

Since the first videos of the system were released on-line [[unless I missed an earlier one), they stated you could move around in the zone you paid for only.

This is done in many areas now. Locally, Pontiac is similar but the downtown are is so small it is essentially one zone. You pay for your time at the meter, add your plate and you can move up and down Saginaw, Lawrence and Warren as much as you like while your time is still active. They use a different app though so the cost of each transaction is higher than Detroit.

[gvidas]

gencinjay, I agree that on-street parking is a heavily subsidized luxury. Currently market price is $1/hr or $45/day if you catch a ticket. That's a weird enough lottery of consequences that it's a shitty market. That's all beside the point though.

My contention is that while the old system was broken, so is the new one. In the previous system, the party responsible for maintaining the system also bore the cost when the system broke down. Call that 'manipulating the system' if you want, but it was at least fair, and puts pressure on the city to maintain its parking infrastructure. The new system is complex enough that A) the only party capable of manipulating it is the city and B) the city has no direct incentive to keep the system from falling into disrepair, because there is always some other method by which you could have paid them, and thus no defense against tickets received despite a good faith effort at paying.

I don't see any reason to create so many zones, all at the same price, except to open the door to ticketing people who have paid time in the wrong zone. To be clear, this hasn't happened to me. But I'm annoyed that the system feels designed to be predatory in this way.

A non-predatory system would automatically transfer time as you move from zone to zone. A fair system would let you cancel a session and start a new one as you move from zone to zone. An ideal system would be an urban environment where it is safe, easy, and cheap not to own a car.

[gencinjay]

gencinjay, I agree that on-street parking is a heavily subsidized luxury. Currently market price is $1/hr or $45/day if you catch a ticket. That's a weird enough lottery of consequences that it's a shitty market. That's all beside the point though.

My contention is that while the old system was broken, so is the new one. In the previous system, the party responsible for maintaining the system also bore the cost when the system broke down. Call that 'manipulating the system' if you want, but it was at least fair, and puts pressure on the city to maintain its parking infrastructure. The new system is complex enough that A) the only party capable of manipulating it is the city and B) the city has no direct incentive to keep the system from falling into disrepair, because there is always some other method by which you could have paid them, and thus no defense against tickets received despite a good faith effort at paying.

I don't see any reason to create so many zones, all at the same price, except to open the door to ticketing people who have paid time in the wrong zone. To be clear, this hasn't happened to me. But I'm annoyed that the system feels designed to be predatory in this way.

A non-predatory system would automatically transfer time as you move from zone to zone. A fair system would let you cancel a session and start a new one as you move from zone to zone. An ideal system would be an urban environment where it is safe, easy, and cheap not to own a car.

I won't argue the $45 ticket at all. That is a drastic move and the reasons they gave for it are dubious at best.

As the owner of the system, it should only be the City that can manipulate it. As long as this manipulation is done in a fair manner with ample notice given. I think they did give fair notice and proper signage for the new system. Giving you more options to pay is a good thing. The City is acting in good faith to make it easy for you to pay what you owe to the system in a manner you can choose and feel comfortable with. It also eliminates the old excuse of "my meter was broken" for those that intentionally try to evade or vandalize the system.

The various zones will allow them to change the time frames and rates by zone in the future. Ideally, there shouldn't be such a broad area covered by the same rates and times. Higher demand areas should have shorter time periods and increased fees to insure turnover as that is the purpose of an on-street parking space in an urban environment. The old system was broken enough that no intelligent data could be captured to determine exactly what the usage was in each area. Now that they have a working system which can capture the data, I would expect changes to come in time and cost for each zone before too long.

Again I argue that this is no different than a single space meter which would not allow you to move from zone to zone. The user is and always has been responsible for estimating the time they would be using an paying accordingly.

This system is also cheaper to run for the City so using it is fiscally responsible.