Bangkok people mover done right

**ddaydetroit** · January-24-16, 11:15 PM

I just spent a week in Bangkok has anyone else ever seen their version of the people mover its called the sky train the thing is amazing it has 3 lines that have 2 sets of rails that go in different directions and one that goes from downtown to the airport.
The biggest of the many flaws I see with the Detroit people mover is it doesn't take anyone from where they live to shopping or work where the one in Bangkok is so its is jam packed everyday ours is only packed during the auto show and hockey games.

**dtowncitylover** · January-25-16, 09:17 AM

Yeah...we know...nothing we can about the PM now.

**Jason** · January-25-16, 02:48 PM

The system was first started in 1999 and it's now 22 miles long.

Vancouver's people mover opened in 1985 and is 42 miles long.

I think recently the operating hours and frequency of M1 was released and people were shocked to see that they were terrible. The People Mover as it is has great hours and great frequency, and the system is capable of essentially running 24/7 with the only limit on frequency being how fast the trains can physically be boarded. The only extra cost to increasing the frequency is the extra wear and eventual maintenance on the trains, and the only extra cost to increasing operating hours is paying someone to monitor the security cameras. Vancouver's system is so cheap to operate that it actually makes money, and public money is only used for capital investments.

Before all the M1 stuff iirc a guy from the People Mover said that it could be extended to New Center for $100 million, which may be a number to be taken with a grain of salt, but we already own the trains, the maintenance facility is already built, and it would increase the value of the existing loop. M1 will cost $137 million, $32 million of that is for 6 trains, and the maintenance facility is $6.9 million. The politics of raising money for a people mover expansion make it impossible though.

I still have hope that after the light rail fad dies the People Mover will be expanded onto Jefferson or Gratiot.

**masterblaster** · January-25-16, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

Before all the M1 stuff iirc a guy from the People Mover said that it could be extended to New Center for $100 million, which may be a number to be taken with a grain of salt, but we already own the trains, the maintenance facility is already built, and it would increase the value of the existing loop. M1 will cost $137 million, $32 million of that is for 6 trains, and the maintenance facility is $6.9 million. The politics of raising money for a people mover expansion make it impossible though.

I still have hope that after the light rail fad dies the People Mover will be expanded onto Jefferson or Gratiot.

The guy's name was Marsden Burger, he was the former manager of the People Mover. The map of the expansion is in the below link.

http://drcurryassociates.net/expansionroute.html

The extension of the People Mover he proposed through Midtown and New Center would have been a two-way system, not the one-way single loop we have downtown.

He said the extension would have cost $150-200 milion, not $100 million.

I would have preferred this to the streetcar because it is grade-separated and wouldn't be affected by car traffic and weather conditions like the streetcar is going to be.

**Király** · January-26-16, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jason

Vancouver's system is so cheap to operate that it actually makes money, and public money is only used for capital investments.

Cheap to operate, sure. But A LOT of public money is used for the capital investment. In fact, many transit planners and critics here in Vancouver dislike the SkyTrain and its various expansion projects [[one finished in 2009, one currently under construction) because it vacuums up too much public transit funding that could otherwise move a lot more people for a lot less money on buses.

A 1-month commuter pass on the SkyTrain valid for the 18 mile trip between the city centre and the suburbs costs $170.

**EastsideAl** · January-27-16, 12:03 PM

The one in Miami ain't bad either, and operates on a fare-free basis! It was started as a downtown loop just like Detroit's, but has been expanded with 2 outer lines and direct connection to the Metrorail rapid transit system.

Given what was done with similar systems in other cities I've never understood why it was so "impossible" to expand our PM system into something more useful, with more potential riders. A line up the central corridor to the Cultural Center, WSU, Amtrak, and the New Center would certainly have seemed obvious.

**downtownguy** · January-27-16, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Given what was done with similar systems in other cities I've never understood why it was so "impossible" to expand our PM system into something more useful, with more potential riders. A line up the central corridor to the Cultural Center, WSU, Amtrak, and the New Center would certainly have seemed obvious.

Given the politics and prejudices of our region, do you really need to ask why?

**ndavies** · January-27-16, 02:06 PM

The original plan of the people mover was supposed to run out to the suburbs. President Ford had managed to get a big chunk of funding approved to build the system. The suburbs couldn't agree on their funding part so the extensions to the suburbs were never built. Only a small portion of the money allocated by the Feds was ever used. What was built was only the central loop of a much larger system.

Bombardier [[the people movers manufacturer) no longer makes the short trains used in Detroit. It would take a major cash infusion for them to retool to build the shorter trains used on the Detroit people mover. People mover technology is way more expensive than the M1 rails and requires grade seperation.

**casscorridor** · January-27-16, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

Bombardier [[the people movers manufacturer) no longer makes the short trains used in Detroit. It would take a major cash infusion for them to retool to build the shorter trains used on the Detroit people mover. People mover technology is way more expensive than the M1 rails and requires grade seperation.

You wouldn't want the same trains anyway, nor would you want two carriage trains. You would want new trains like they have in Vancouver, and run them with up to 6 carriages each! Of course this would mean extending platforms [[and probably demolishing a few stations) and a new depot, but it would mean the loop could remain in service and allow for expansion of TRUE rapid transit. As stated before, the People Mover is still great technology, and was very far ahead of its time when built.

**ndavies** · January-27-16, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

You wouldn't want the same trains anyway, nor would you want two carriage trains. You would want new trains like they have in Vancouver, and run them with up to 6 carriages each! Of course this would mean extending platforms [[and probably demolishing a few stations) and a new depot, but it would mean the loop could remain in service and allow for expansion of TRUE rapid transit. As stated before, the People Mover is still great technology, and was very far ahead of its time when built.

The longer cars can't run on the current people mover track due to the tight corners. There would be no way to get them to the current train barn. the current people mover track is designed around the short cars.

**ABetterDetroit** · January-27-16, 03:16 PM

Interesting how things change. The people mover was the bastard stepchild for decades and now people want more of it.

**ndavies** · January-27-16, 03:24 PM

This subject comes up every couple of years, the answer is always the same. It would be very expensive to expand the people mover. Traditional rail technology is way cheaper. Traditional rail can be automated if it's grade separated.

**Bham1982** · January-27-16, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Interesting how things change. The people mover was the bastard stepchild for decades and now people want more of it.

Hell, we're doubling down on People Mover logic with the new M1 rail. When it fails I guarantee the response will be "but we just need to expand it even more; then the riders will come".

**bust** · January-27-16, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Hell, we're doubling down on People Mover logic with the new M1 rail. When it fails I guarantee the response will be "but we just need to expand it even more; then the riders will come".

That response would be perfectly in line with what Jane Jacobs would say. The more useful the service the more people will use it. The less useful, the fewer. Service area, service frequency, and service availability are all key.

M1 could be a great first piece of a much larger system. But all by itself, especially if service is infrequent, and if it shuts down too early, its ridership numbers are likely to disappoint. Set your expectations appropriately.

Detroit needs much better than a streetcar that serves only lower Woodward and only until 10pm. That's not a full system plan. It isn't even a decent solitary streetcar line if you can't ride it home from a late dinner or an overtime game. But it could be a great step in the right direction if it doesn't stop there.

Don't expect a return on an investment before you've completed the plan. Partial solutions don't bring bring full returns. And it goes without saying it must be a good plan.

It's been heralded as a major breakthrough to have express buses on Woodward and Gratiot that won't run even once an hour. How sad. No wonder there are so many clunkers on the road.

The current state of Detroit's transit system is abominable, and Detroit lacks a good full transit plan. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't create one. It means we should.

There, that didn't take long. If M1 "fails" I've proven the second part of your post correct.