Louis Aguilar [[Detnews) Provides Ammo To Those Who Fight Back Against Detroit Trolls

[emu steve]

This is the near perfect glass is more than half full, skies are becoming bright and spring is coming to Detroit, esp. select areas [[which we discuss a lot here) article.

Lot of good info and some statistics to rebut the notion that the positive change is incrementally slow.

"Midtown boomed as well. Last year, 18 new housing developments representing more than 750 units either began construction in 2015, or sealed their deals to begin construction this year. That’s more than double the eight new developments in 2014, said Susan Mosey, president of Midtown Detroit Inc., the nonprofit that plays a major role in shaping growth in the area.In 2016, at least 10 housing more developments in Midtown are expected to be finalized, Mosey said."

I like the quote from George Jackson comparing Woodward Ave. today vs. 10 years ago... " As recently as a decade ago, downtown Woodward used to be “the bad wig shop capital of America,” according to George Jackson. "

Imagine what it will look like when things start happening at the Hudson's site...

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...roit/78447964/

[emu steve]

George Jackson details how the Super Bowl was much, much than a single day, single weekend, single week long event but literally an event which caused Detroit to come together in ways it had not been able to do to do something really big:

Prepare for a Super Bowl and at the same time create a lot of energy which continues... :

[[from the Detnews):“Now, like most of downtown, I’m just amazed at what I’m seeing. It’s phenomenal,” Jackson said, who now works as a private consultant. Detroit leaders have worked for this kind of activity since the city began to decline in population and businesses 50 years ago. A turning point was the collaborative effort of businesses, government and philanthropic foundations to prepare for Super Bowl XL in 2006, Jackson said.
“That made it clear to lot of people that we could accomplish a great deal,” Jackson said.

[TTime]

What's it called when someone trolls a troll? Also, I stop reading articles on Detroit when I see any variation of booming or boom in reference to the city's "comeback." This article obviously went down that road like so many of the rest. There is quite a commendable effort to improve the city's core but to people who say Detroit is booming I simply say,"you need to get out more."

[emu steve]

What's it called when someone trolls a troll? Also, I stop reading articles on Detroit when I see any variation of booming or boom in reference to the city's "comeback." This article obviously went down that road like so many of the rest. There is quite a commendable effort to improve the city's core but to people who say Detroit is booming I simply say,"you need to get out more."

Q: "What's it called when someone trolls a troll? "

A: Fun.

[drjeff]

What's it called when someone trolls a troll? Also, I stop reading articles on Detroit when I see any variation of booming or boom in reference to the city's "comeback." This article obviously went down that road like so many of the rest. There is quite a commendable effort to improve the city's core but to people who say Detroit is booming I simply say,"you need to get out more."

Yeah. Nothing good is happening. Wake me up when the population is over 1 million. Nothing to see here.

[corktownyuppie]

Like most sane people, I don't want the end result to be two Detroits. But I also remember when it was just one Detroit, and it was the Detroit that everyone -- including me and my family -- was racing to escape.

So if 2 Detroit's is what needs to happen before it can go back one reasonably respectable and nice Detroit, so be it.

And regarding Detroit trolls, they used to make me so angry. Now I've learned to embrace them as they help to keep property values lower so I can still afford to buy them before they get out-of-control expensive.

[mwilbert]

It's not easy balancing a story between the "boom" and "still sucks" poles. Greater downtown is miles ahead of where it was not that long ago, but that is miles ahead of a large collection of wig shops. There are still a ton of empty storefronts on Woodward, again a lot fewer than there used to be. I'm mostly impressed with how much more activity there is--last week on two different, pretty cold, weekday mid-afternoons I was in Midtown and Shinola/Avalon/Third Man were all packed. If you remember 1990, that isn't exactly a small change.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Wouldn't "boom from a small base" be accurate?

[ABetterDetroit]

Wouldn't "boom from a small base" be accurate?

Sure, but a white hot boom nevertheless, it is now feeding on itself. On a rainy gray day in January, you can feel, see and hear it walking around downtown like never in my life time. People everywhere working, commuting, filling lunch spots, parking spots and businesses. Entry level jobs for young people, students, or people turning their life around growing right in the center of the city. Opportunity, to steal Dan's word, there is money to be made for the educated, risk takers and the hardworking.

Residents are coming to certain zip codes and their numbers are swelling. With them come more of everything; markets, shops, restaurants. Soon, more dentists, daycares and all kinds of services.

Detroit has become a destination for people living in its own suburbs like never before in the last 50 years. The boom is here. Now the only real question is where will it spread next? Up Jefferson? out Gratiot or the north end? That is all open for debate, hell the M-1 is still over a year from running...

[313WX]

What's it called when someone trolls a troll? Also, I stop reading articles on Detroit when I see any variation of booming or boom in reference to the city's "comeback." This article obviously went down that road like so many of the rest. There is quite a commendable effort to improve the city's core but to people who say Detroit is booming I simply say,"you need to get out more."

Very well said.

[TTime]

Sure, but a white hot boom nevertheless, it is now feeding on itself. On a rainy gray day in January, you can feel, see and hear it walking around downtown like never in my life time. People everywhere working, commuting, filling lunch spots, parking spots and businesses. Entry level jobs for young people, students, or people turning their life around growing right in the center of the city. Opportunity, to steal Dan's word, there is money to be made for the educated, risk takers and the hardworking.

Residents are coming to certain zip codes and their numbers are swelling. With them come more of everything; markets, shops, restaurants. Soon, more dentists, daycares and all kinds of services.

Detroit has become a destination for people living in its own suburbs like never before in the last 50 years. The boom is here. Now the only real question is where will it spread next? Up Jefferson? out Gratiot or the north end? That is all open for debate, hell the M-1 is still over a year from running...

This is a classic example of different people experiencing different things. Please allow me to give you a couple of examples: My first example was 1 month ago when a friend who moved elsewhere and had read and heard all the hype asked me to,"show me all this stuff I've been hearing about. I want to see it all." Keep in mind it was a beautiful day nearing the end of a work week during lunch hour. After a drive and walk of "everything" one could possibly see in and near Downtown, Midtown and Corktown that included several chuckles the friend simply said,"other than a few new restaurants and your standard yoga and coffee shop found on every corner in any city this place is still shockingly quiet and hasn't changed a bit in 10 years." My second example is summed up by a different friend recently who while walking around in prime Gilbert territory simply said,"I guess a few billion bucks doesn't go as far as it used to..." Not necessarily your truth or mine but those are honest reactions.

[mwilbert]

This is a classic example of different people experiencing different things. Please allow me to give you a couple of examples: My first example was 1 month ago when a friend who moved elsewhere and had read and heard all the hype asked me to,"show me all this stuff I've been hearing about. I want to see it all." Keep in mind it was a beautiful day nearing the end of a work week during lunch hour. After a drive and walk of "everything" one could possibly see in and near Downtown, Midtown and Corktown that included several chuckles the friend simply said,"other than a few new restaurants and your standard yoga and coffee shop found on every corner in any city this place is still shockingly quiet and hasn't changed a bit in 10 years." My second example is summed up by a different friend recently who while walking around in prime Gilbert territory simply said,"I guess a few billion bucks doesn't go as far as it used to..." Not necessarily your truth or mine but those are honest reactions.

As you say, people have whatever reactions they have, but "hasn't changed a bit in 10 years" is objectively wrong, and that true is even if you discount restaurants, coffee shops and yoga studios, although I don't really see why discounting them is appropriate, as they represent a significant improvement. On the other hand, it is certainly true that it is easy to overstate where things currently are, and one danger is that people listen to the hype and then are disappointed by the reality. On the third hand, the reality really is improved, and improving.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

This is a classic example of different people experiencing different things. Please allow me to give you a couple of examples: My first example was 1 month ago when a friend who moved elsewhere and had read and heard all the hype asked me to,"show me all this stuff I've been hearing about. I want to see it all." Keep in mind it was a beautiful day nearing the end of a work week during lunch hour. After a drive and walk of "everything" one could possibly see in and near Downtown, Midtown and Corktown that included several chuckles the friend simply said,"other than a few new restaurants and your standard yoga and coffee shop found on every corner in any city this place is still shockingly quiet and hasn't changed a bit in 10 years." My second example is summed up by a different friend recently who while walking around in prime Gilbert territory simply said,"I guess a few billion bucks doesn't go as far as it used to..." Not necessarily your truth or mine but those are honest reactions.

Probably a tad difficult to show how much more office space is currently occupied than was 10 years ago, I suppose.

When I am back, which I am about once a year, I am struck by how many buildings that I remember as vacant no longer are. And how stretches of Woodward that used to be bombed out no longer are. At the same time the amount of vacant land is still striking.

[emu steve]

Probably a tad difficult to show how much more office space is currently occupied than was 10 years ago, I suppose.

When I am back, which I am about once a year, I am struck by how many buildings that I remember as vacant no longer are. And how stretches of Woodward that used to be bombed out no longer are. At the same time the amount of vacant land is still striking.

Interesting discussion but my take is somewhat different.

1/1/2016 was but a single point in time on a long journey.

Have friends come back 1/1/2018 and jump on M-1 and ride it to New Center and see what is new or under construction or renovation. Better yet, have folks come when Detroit hosts the NCAA men's basketball tourney [[March, 2018?).

To use a football analogy, the game isn't over. It isn't half time. Still early in the first half. Detroit is still putting points on the scoreboard.

The only thing I fear is some kind of economic crisis. No one know when [[and why) the next one will happen. Detroit is still fragile.

[TTime]

As you say, people have whatever reactions they have, but "hasn't changed a bit in 10 years" is objectively wrong, and that true is even if you discount restaurants, coffee shops and yoga studios, although I don't really see why discounting them is appropriate, as they represent a significant improvement. On the other hand, it is certainly true that it is easy to overstate where things currently are, and one danger is that people listen to the hype and then are disappointed by the reality. On the third hand, the reality really is improved, and improving.

The reason discounting a few new restaurants is appropriate is simply because this guy lives in a town where many new 20 story buildings pop up and no one brags and new restaurants open constantly . The other thing I didn't mention was the person who mentioned the new restaurants knows the city enough to realize we have lost "a few" of the old restaurants he used to go to. One example was," oh I guess Oslo is gone." ...but it has obviously been replaced by Cornerstone Barrel House which in my opinion is a great spot, it isn't overhyped or overpriced and the crowd and staff are good. I also liked Oslo.

[emu steve]

What's it called when someone trolls a troll? Also, I stop reading articles on Detroit when I see any variation of booming or boom in reference to the city's "comeback." This article obviously went down that road like so many of the rest. There is quite a commendable effort to improve the city's core but to people who say Detroit is booming I simply say,"you need to get out more."

Or I'd suggest that folks look at Detroit in 5 or 10-year increments to see if there has been a real turn around.

2001 - 2005 period included Ford Field and preparations for the Super Bowl which led to the beginning of what we are seeing downtown.

2006 - 2010 included the Super Bowl, but also the Great Recession which devastated areas which were not strong and slowed Detroit's comeback.

2011 - 2015 evidence that the national, state and local economies improved and things picking up in Detroit, esp certain areas. Bankruptcy completed and the city has a brighter future. Gilbert, Ilitch, etc. commit big bucks to be transformative.

2016 - 2020 another exciting five years expected as some big projects and developments should be completed which will be transformative for certain areas like downtown, midtown, etc. I'd guess it would be hard to overstate the impact of the new arena, adjacent development, the Hudson's site, etc. will have on the Woodward corridor south of MLK. New Center to become hot during the latter part of this 5-year period. Re-development should follow M-1 along Woodward first in downtown/CBD into Midtown and eventually to New Center. While neighborhoods continue to improve, the Henry Ford Hospital area could be a signficant, big development boomlet.

[Wesley Mouch]

Not so much Trolling, but I think it more sharing a sense of disappointment that development hasn't gone quite like they would like.

Any redevelopment will see gains and improvements -- and losses and restructuring.

[mwilbert]

The reason discounting a few new restaurants is appropriate is simply because this guy lives in a town where many new 20 story buildings pop up and no one brags and new restaurants open constantly.

Which is a perfectly good reason for not being overly impressed by the changes downtown, but which is not an explanation for your friends, who apparently had in fact been familiar with the downtown of decades past, not recognizing that there have, in fact, been significant improvements. If you evaluate downtown by the standards of a normal largish city, it isn't impressive, and I don't know many people who would say that it is. If you evaluate it relative to its state of the past couple of decades, and its trajectory of the previous few decades, it is kind of amazing.

[TTime]

Which is a perfectly good reason for not being overly impressed by the changes downtown, but which is not an explanation for your friends, who apparently had in fact been familiar with the downtown of decades past, not recognizing that there have, in fact, been significant improvements. If you evaluate downtown by the standards of a normal largish city, it isn't impressive, and I don't know many people who would say that it is. If you evaluate it relative to its state of the past couple of decades, and its trajectory of the previous few decades, it is kind of amazing.

Amazing? People have done amazing things in this world but what has happened Downtown recently isn't one of those things and if you want people to take this town seriously stop grossly exaggerating. I'm done commenting on this.

[ABetterDetroit]

Which is a perfectly good reason for not being overly impressed by the changes downtown, but which is not an explanation for your friends, who apparently had in fact been familiar with the downtown of decades past, not recognizing that there have, in fact, been significant improvements. If you evaluate downtown by the standards of a normal largish city, it isn't impressive, and I don't know many people who would say that it is. If you evaluate it relative to its state of the past couple of decades, and its trajectory of the previous few decades, it is kind of amazing.

Amazing is the perfect adjective for what I was conveying in my earlier post.

Taking part in the "let's look at what is happening in San Francisco, Seattle Toronto or New York and compare them to Detroit" is so utterly pointless simply because none of these other cities are Detroit. Not singling out any one individual, but countless posters who hate, joke or troll about Detroit have done it endlessly for years on this forum using these stupid comparisons. Yet, I have not once ever seen anyone on this forum who doesn't harbor the above feelings imply anything other than there is still a whole lot of work that needs to be done. Decades worth in fact, but we can be excited about progress.

[mwilbert]

Amazing? People have done amazing things in this world but what has happened Downtown recently isn't one of those things and if you want people to take this town seriously stop grossly exaggerating. I'm done commenting on this.

That is good, because it means I won't have to disagree with you again.

I do not think I am exaggerating, and I do think what has happened downtown is amazing. I think your comment about seriousness is misplaced. As other people have said, basically no one is saying how great downtown is, because they recognize that by normal standards, it isn't great. If people were saying that, it might not seem very serious. But a completely serious person should recognize that it has come a long way from where it was.

Did you spend any time downtown in the mid 80's, say a year or two after Hudson's closed? It was desolate, and there was no sign of improvement for years. You can completely legitimately say that the developments of the past 15 or so years are inadequate, that there are still tons of problems, that the foot traffic is nothing like it should be in a downtown, that real estate values are still low, that there are still incredible numbers of surface parking lots reflecting that and blighting the streetscape, that there is still very limited retail, etc.,etc.,etc., but it seems to me that it is probably about as big a step from desolation to where it is now as it would be from now to a more-or-less functional downtown. I'm not completely confident that will happen--what has already happened was pretty surprising, and we may not get another positive surprise, but at this point at least things are moving in a direction which they absolutely were not thirty years ago, and which frankly it was hard to imagine thirty years ago if you weren't an insane optimist.

Really all you need to know is that a fair and seemingly increasing number of people who have other options want to live downtown, in actual residential buildings that aren't in fortresses on the waterfront. If you had told someone that would be the case in 1985, they would not have believed you.

[gnome]

I was born in Mason, Michigan it is a small town south of Lansing. I distinctly remember the excitement generated when they got a MCDonalds.

i know people who were so excited about the drive-thru they went through it just to buy a small Coca-Cola. I was taken there and shown the children's play area that consisted of a cement turtle, a seal and three round tables.

it was very nice and quite close to the county jail which made it especially nice because of the view.

I believe those folks who are a little yawny about Detroit's amazing transformation fall into a few groups:

• They have lived in a large, properly functioning city and know that a new McDonalds is nothing to get excited about.
• They have been here long enough, and have experienced a myriad of false dawns, that loosing their load over a cement turtle isn't worth the emotional investment.
• They have been bled fish-belly white by development prophets and being taken through the drive-thru again is no fun.
• They know how to pronounce hyperbole.

Now, Mason is a fine town. It is even better today and I don't mean to belittle the amazing wonderfulness of their fast-casual dinning options; just to point out that all the cement picnic tables in the world don't equate to Paris in the spring.

[313WX]

I believe those folks who are a little yawny about Detroit's amazing transformation fall into a few groups:

• They have lived in a large, properly functioning city and know that a new McDonalds is nothing to get excited about.
• They have been here long enough, and have experienced a myriad of false dawns, that loosing their load over a cement turtle isn't worth the emotional investment.
• They have been bled fish-belly white by development prophets and being taken through the drive-thru again is no fun.
• They know how to pronounce hyperbole.

Or they're old enough to remember and experience Detroit [[as in the entire city proper) from about 1945 to circa 1985.

To counter mwilbert's comment, I'm pretty sure Detroiters in 1985 would also be shocked and label you as being negative and blasphemous if you told them the city's neighborhoods would have so much crumbling infrastructure and look like bombed-out ghost towns, even many suburbanites.

What we have now compared to THAT Detroit [[even including the recent ongoing "improvements") completely underwhelms all of them, granted I'm sure they're not complaining that SOMETHING positive is happening either.

[Junjie]

Don't really disagree with anyone here as it is very much a matter of perspective.

I was at a large party last night [[DC area) and at some point Detroit came up. This is in a group with two people from India, one from the state of Washington, one from Texas, another from Florida. It was amazing to me [[and doubly amazing because not wholly unexpected) that all of them took it as a given that things were improving in Detroit. I'd imagine most would put me in the "booster" category, but in general I was in the role of tamping down their enthusiasm. On other occasions I've had people ask if I plan to move to Detroit as though that's a rational, understandable choice. In my experience this is all very different from how things were a decade ago.

We can have lots of productive arguments about what constitutes "improving" but it's clear to me that word about what's happening in the core is getting out and that the various national stories are having a lot of effect. No, it's still not impressive compared to other metro areas of similar size. But yes, there is a real change.

[corktownyuppie]

Some of this is explainable with behavior finance.

Imagine you have $10,000 in an investment.
2008 happens, and you see the investment drop from $10,000 down to $5,000,
The following year you see a 50% gain...you go from $5,000 to $7,500.
The following year you see a 20% gain...you go from $7,500 to $9,000.

One person says, "holy sh**, a 50% gain and then a 20% gain back-to-back?? Those are record-breaking numbers!!"

The investor replies and says, "Yeah, well I had $10,000 three years ago and I'm still not back to even, so I'm still pissed."

A few laws of human behavior when it comes to money:
- We feel losses more intensely than we feel gains.
- Everyone compares their current state to whatever was their "personal best" or "all-time high".
- People compare themselves to the people around them.

And, thus, here we are.

Of course, the past is past. The only thing we can be concerned about is continuing to push he ball forward. Some people will never get back to their all-time high in Detroit. Others will see it, but it may take the rest of their life. We can't turn back the clock, and in some ways we shouldn't want to. And while we are seeing gains, they don't get to spread to everyone equally and simultaneously.

You know the American economy has been growing for 7 years straight? I know engineers at Apple that have gotten $80,000 bonuses 5 years in a row.

But tell that to the displaced factory worker who took a job for half the pay no raises for 7-years straight.

So, that's Detroit. All the perspectives are right. It's all very relative, and your opinion is very much informed by what's happening in your specific portion of the 144-square-mile behemoth that is this wonderful city.